How do i deal with those annoying things?

[Killersox]

Hey guys. I posted this in gremlins too because I have multiple factions with still the same problem. So I hate to be the guy that complains about models in the game being OP but lately I feel like I have just been a debbie downer every time I see a nurse or belle bomb. I am trying to turn this poor sportsmanship around so I am coming to you guys for help. I don't care what i need to buy to deal with these ridiculous complex i have with these i just need to deal with it. How do we as a faction do condition removal reliably. I just bought high river monks so I think that will help with the nurses but being belle bombed or double belle bombed with Seamus, I feel like I should just walk away and let the person play by themselves since they are going to be moving my models all game anyway. so the long and short of it is help please.

[Skitt_Happens]

There are not a lot of ressers in my meta, so haven't really had too many issues with these particular builds, but my thoughts are thus:

1) Target Priority

That nurse might not be doing damage, but it is target #1. If you try to ignore it, it's going to spend the game healing, buffing and debugging and your opponent will control the game. Hit her hard and early: ideally snipe her out turn 1. If Frame for Murder is in the pool, give them 2/3 vp. It's better than not being able to stop them getting 7.

2) A Cunning Plan

Firstly, if any faction is equipped to deal with the Belle Bomb it would be the Thunders. Plenty of Laugh Off and good general WP. I don't think I've ever even been targeted with Lure from a Belle - they've always used it on friendly models only.

The real strategy is to rush the Belles. The idea behind the BB is to isolate one model and execute it - if you rush three or four reasonably hard hitters into the pack they will soon crumble. If you disrupt their plan, their isn't too much plan B with a list like that.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Belle bombs aren't always useful which is why I only circumstantially put them together. Tactics you can do if you know you are going to potentially face a Belle Bomb, put a crew together that can rush the opposing side. A Belle Bomb list succeeds because it picks apart your crew one model at a time as of it's choosing. If you have a hard hitting crew that doesn't care if it charges en masse down the enemy's throat, then the Belles are doing your work for you. Don't forget that while the Belles can speed your movement towards them, they aren't very effective at killing you once you are there, except through multiple multiple low dmg strikes. So if your crew is set up to heavily brawl, you have an advantage if you can just rush everything you have straight at them.

Additionally, as to the point I brought up about multiple low dmg strikes, models which hurt the enemy for hitting or damaging your models, or models that explode on death are also great things to use against a Belle Bomb. So Black Blood, explosive Demise and other such things are gold against belles. As are blasts. It can be hard to get the blast because of their hard to wound, but you can get a lucky strike here and there, or if they have a model without hard to wound nearby, like the mindless zombies a carrion Emissary or Anna Lovelace might create, aiming to blast off them can be effective.

[ArcticPangolin]

Yes, Black Blood is the bane of ping damage crews, although I can't think of anything in 10T that has it. Another consideration are damaging Auras, which every Faction has access to with the Crossroads Seven. If an unactivated Manipulative member is being Lured (which could potentially be used to block LOS to or get in the way of other crew members) it's going to cost them resources to succeed, and cost further resources when they get there.

I'm not sure that there's really a surefire way to counter Lure spam aside from offering models you don't mind losing to it until your cavalry can arrive to get those Belles in line, apart from the usual "making sure you're playing with enough terrain" and keeping your key models out of sight.

[Inquisitor Wall]

Ten Thunders actually deal with this easier than other crews.  There are 3-4 really good models that have laugh off, or in Fuhatsu's case cannot be pushed at all.  Also smoke grenades to give out a - to all the lures is good.  Mei with double vent steam makes lures nearly impossible even on a cast of 8.  You can also use oiran to give +1 wp to all your models in range which can bring them up to a Wp  7 in many cases, which is respectable.  Throw in snipers who can shoot at further distance than the bells and you are in good shape.  Personally I would go with Fuhatsu in front of Shenlong with low river style.  Fuhatsu's size makes it so they can't target Shenlong, Shenlong gives out fast, and a 0 focus to Fuhatsu and for good measure pile in Kang to get more + to attack and damage.  Granted you are putting in a lot of points to kill the belles, but belle spam ends up being lots of points too. 

[OneLittleThunder]

16 minutes ago, ArcticPangolin said:

Yes, Black Blood is the bane of ping damage crews, although I can't think of anything in 10T that has it.

Mr. Graves has it, and also happens to be a solid hitter that can help your other hitters rush up the board via Show Ya The Door. 

There are also a few mercs with it, but I think the relevant one to this conversation would be Killjoy. Your opponent may think twice before luring something into his kill-box when he'll have a demonic, black-blooded murder machine in his face as soon as his plan "succeeds."

[OneLittleThunder]

Sidir with By Your Side might also be worth considering; not only can the Belles not move him thanks to Laugh Off, but he can also use By Your Side to save one of your other models by becoming the target of the (now-useless) Lure.

[Fetid Strumpet]

When I put together belle bombs killjoy is often a non issue as I almost always have a nurse there as well to paralyze or just deny him te ability to make attacks.

All the tactics here are great. But personally, and as someone who used Belle bombs a lot the biggest thing I often just couldn't deal with was having my crew just rushed by everything on the opposing side. Lure box lists want to deal with 1 model of their choosing at a time. While they still might get said model off the table by the time the rest of your crew arrives, that is generally the only one they get favorable conditions on. That's my experience in anycase.

[tadaka]

Sigh i know wyrd thinks they are fine but i wish they would just nurf the damn things. They are stupid good and one hell of a negative play exp.

[Manic Mouse]

Honestly if any model in the game deserves a cuddle it is rotten bells. People say use a sniper - with 8 wounds and hard to wound it will take most snipers 3 turns to kill a rotten bell. The sniper probably costs more than the rotten bell, and by turn 3 the bell has probably already done her job (and tied up your sniper). So all that does is waste your sniper.

Bells should be a point more expensive, have 6 wounds and their lure should be Ca 6 (7 max). They are stupid durable for their cost, and their lure at Ca 8 is stupid reliable.

They are, almost certainly, the best model for their points in the entire game.

[santaclaws01]

I've never really had issues with Belles and honestly don't understand everyones frustration with them. Also, they *do not* have HtK, only HtW, which neither Freikorps trappers nor 10T snipers really care about because of how easily we can give out the focus condition, or they can just go for the things that are actually killing your models that get lured in, because Belles sure aren't going to be the ones doing it. Our support pieces are all either pretty durable or just straight up can't be moved (Sensei Yu), and with the 10T's general dearth of midling beaters, they're only other options are your Master, most of actually *want* to be in the thick of things, and if they don't you can just hide them out of LoS forcing them to waste AP to move for the lure, or they can  lure in someone like Izamu to which my response is "Thanks, you got him where I wanted him quicker".

[Manic Mouse]

Sorry that was a typo - hard to wound indeed. But 8 wounds and hard to wound on such a cheap model certainly makes them incredibly durable.

The issue most people have with bells is that they have no real weakness for such a cheap model - they do their thing better than any model in the game, but they're also probably one of the most durable models at their points and while they don't do severe damage with pounce they can put out decent hurt. 8 wounds on a 5SS model is great, but they have 8 wounds and hard to wound.

They are certainly the best 5SS model in the game, and are better than many 6SS models - which is why people have the issue.

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, Manic Mouse said:

Sorry that was a typo - hard to wound indeed. But 8 wounds and hard to wound on such a cheap model certainly makes them incredibly durable.

The issue most people have with bells is that they have no real weakness for such a cheap model - they do their thing better than any model in the game, but they're also probably one of the most durable models at their points and while they don't do severe damage with pounce they can put out decent hurt. 8 wounds on a 5SS model is great, but they have 8 wounds and hard to wound.

They are certainly the best 5SS model in the game, and are better than many 6SS models - which is why people have the issue.

I would have to disagree. I would rate 10T brothers higher every time, in both durability and usefulness. Belles are little more than a nuisance and if your opponent is taking so many belles as to elevate them above a nuisance, then the rest of their list is suffering.

[tadaka]

Big difference here is 1 ttb have to get up in to the enemy or objectives bells dont. In fact they can sit in deployment zone and still help with objectives you take them for. 2nd the crazy 8 cast means lure works damn close to every time. 3rd ttb have a big weekness in that defensive does not help at all vs wp duels. You can never go wrong taking a belle. Shit if i could in 10t i would hire them every damn game even with merc tax. Shit ton better then both of our lure minion options.

[maca1066]

having played circa 60 tournament games in GG 2016 I have had very little issues with belles. I generally wont my models up in my opponents face, I just activate my 'chaff' first which means they either lure chaff or my beaters. belle's only need on one of their suits removed like Oiran I feel just for fairness.  

Nurse's are a pain but I mainly see my opponents use them on their own models unless they keep up the high cards, if they are running a nurse against Shenlong and Yu I keep high river up to increase my duel total. other than that I would send black betty (new henchman) after a nurse to guarantee they kill it (no def triggers and built in flay).

in a nutshell rush belles and kill nurses as number one priority.

[Manic Mouse]

Nobody is saying belles are unbeatable. But given how much you have to "play around" a 5SS model, that takes much more than a 5SS model to put it down, and is effective over half the table, this is why people have issues

I don't think they're unbeatable and I don't think they break the game.

But I do think the game would be better if they were toned down a touch.

They should be 6SS and their Ca should be 7. And they would still be contending for best 6SS minion at that.

[Killersox]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm glad I'm not the only one frustrated with them. I have never thought of just literally running everyone up as fast as I can. The problem I have with them is if I get lured into a belle bomb of three bells and let's even say it takes me 2ap to get there. That still leaves 4 lures and 12 pounces. If they even do one damage each that's a dead anything. Super stupid. I almost straight refuse to play belle bombs now.  Maybe I will try the run and hope for better cards.

[Fetid Strumpet]

So... one thing to be aware of that SEVERLY limited the power of belle bombs, and I want to make sure you were aware of this. 

Let's say you are 4" away from a cluster of 3 Rotten Belles. Belle 1 lures you, and you end in base to base with her, so all three get pounce attacks (ml 5 with min dmg 1). The important thing to know is once you ARE in base to base with her, while she can lure you, to get any benefit the player might get from you failing WP, you won't move, and therefore won't trigger any pounces from them. So if the math works out that your first lure in ends, not in b2b with the luring belle, but you are in range of all three, then you can get pounced 12 times, assuming they all succeed on their lures (which though likely isn't certain. I fail lures all the time because I need the high cards specifically for something else, or I flip under the required 4 necessary to make it work). But That doesn't tend to happen all that often in my experience.

They also have to hit you when they pounce which isn't easy considering they only have Ml 5, and you have to not be doing anything that hurts them for killing or hitting you. It's a big reason I don't actually build specific belle bombs anymore. Too many times playing against lists with Black Blood, or explosive demise, or abilities that strip my casting suits, or models that can't be moved, Or don't care if they get lured in because they will just hack my belles apart. (Howard, not friendly) and so on. And that is also before we take how much terrain is on the board, heavy terrain makes belle lists less viable as well. If there is adequate terrain massive lure chains like that are much harder to get off against critical models. You might get one, but the rest of the enemy tends to avoid the few lanes the belles can see down.

And if the belles are all clustered together like that it tends to be a prime blast magnet. I might be misremembering, but can't the Shadow emissary get blasts, and focus for free? Shadow emissary does tend to be a good drop against a belle list.

That isn't to say you need to know you are playing a belle bomb list to beat them, because you don't. Just like when I'm playing against TT Anna almost always jumps into my list, because TT tend to be know to have lots of personal movement tricks I want to shut down. Or if I'm playing Ressers of Outcasts, Chiaki almost always jumps into the list because if I'm playing Seamus I can't take the risk a Hanged will show up or get summoned and take away Seamus' ability to heal, if your playing against ressers it's a good idea to assume there could be some lure shenanigans coming and plan accordingly. I assume I'm almost always going to see the doppleganger in NB lists, TT brothers in TT, Rooster Riders in Gremlins and so on. When a faction is declared against you you are almost always going to see whichever models that faction has that could be considered above the curve.

But yes the most frustrating anti tactic for me when I was playing clustered belles was the enemy list just rushing me en masse, and a good chunk of the opposing models having dmg on hit/explode on death/blasts to deny even getting marginal use from the cluster.

I hope that helps a little.

[ArcticPangolin]

Maybe even suggest swapping lists with your opponent for one or two games to better understand how it works best, it's weaknesses and how it can be worked around. It can be easy to see the strengths of something you don't use but not as much to see what it takes to make it work. What's great too is that your opponent will have intimate knowledge of how it works and you might learn something about how to evade them in the future.

[Yvarre]

I'd add that keeping Henchman and masters out of Belle sight when something like Public Demonstration is in the pool can help.  Belles can make that scheme stupid easy. 

So, Sensei Yu and Ototo both have laugh off, which prevents Belles from pulling them out of position for strats and schemes.  Unfortunately, they can't help Ototo get to them faster when needed, which is a pity, but Sensei Yu can help mitigate this with pushes and fast.  I think I generally see one or two Belles in many Resser lists.  As has been mentioned, isolating single targets of opportunity can be an effective removal technique, one that I happily pay 7 stones for in Lynch lists.  Further, pulling some models out of position in general can be great for many schemes and strats.  Positioning in such a way as to minimize the effectiveness of Belles is none too difficult for us with all of our movement shenanigans, and there really should be enough terrain.  I also will only pick schemes that require specific positioning against Belles if I can guarantee that my models will be in position, whether through abilities of their own or terrain density.