Schemes & Stones Building On A Budget (Neverborn)

[Khyodee]

Let me know what you think about the article here.

https://schemesandstones.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/building-on-a-budget-neverborn/

[Pikciwok]

1) Nice article, thanks for your work!
2) You really, really tried not to include Doppelganger in many crews that would benefit from one. This is good that you're trying to fight with 'auto-inclusiveness' of this model, but IMHO you should present the best option available to the new gamers. That means Doppelganger.
 

[Four_N_Six]

I think it's well done, except I don't agree with Collodi being tier 2. He's a fine master, but building on a budget and starting in Neverborn he should probably be lowest tier, since you'll use practically none of his models with any other masters. Yes, you technically succeed staying under budget, but then you have to spend it all again when you move to a different master. 

[Adran]

13 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

2) You really, really tried not to include Doppelganger in many crews that would benefit from one. This is good that you're trying to fight with 'auto-inclusiveness' of this model, but IMHO you should present the best option available to the new gamers. That means Doppelganger.
 

Actually I think Doppleganger is a very bad idea to recommend to new gamers. She is very good for a certain playstyle, where you play a riskier game and hope to win initiative. If you play a more cautious playstyle, where you don't mind if you win or lose initiative then she is much much less of an auto include. 

If you start the game and learn with the mindset that you are going to win initiative, then you are forcing yourself to use eitehr Doppleganger or Trixe in every game you play, or feel that you have no chance. 

If you start the game, and learn to play without tricks to win initiative, then adding the tricks in later is an option that is much easier than taking them away. 

 

[chryspainthemum]

Why do people keep reducing Doppelganger to Ill Omens? Don't mind me and Mimic alone are worth the 7ss imo.

[HPN]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Actually I think Doppleganger is a very bad idea to recommend to new gamers. She is very good for a certain playstyle, where you play a riskier game and hope to win initiative. If you play a more cautious playstyle, where you don't mind if you win or lose initiative then she is much much less of an auto include. 

If you start the game and learn with the mindset that you are going to win initiative, then you are forcing yourself to use eitehr Doppleganger or Trixe in every game you play, or feel that you have no chance. 

If you start the game, and learn to play without tricks to win initiative, then adding the tricks in later is an option that is much easier than taking them away. 

 

It's a walking6 model (so can reinvent herself as a scheme runner, in late game), that can copy Lure, Lorelei and a crapload of other useful abilities, and easily get 3 actions/activation (by copying a ranged attack/ability with mask). Can actively contribute in Hunting Party. Can pick up "engaged" heads in headhunter. Can "tank" a big model for a bit going defensive and activating to MI.

I don't think it's all about Ill Omens. It's about being one of the most complete and versatile models in the game (and for one time, this sentence could end without the "for her stone cost" part), that also happens to have a game-changing ability very well fitting in a faction that is mainly made of glasscannons melee models that rarely gets the chance to swing again after they have been delivered.

And she is not into a 50$ box filled of debatable models (like, think if she would have been in the Lucius Box instead of Dashel). She is in a budget-friendly one model box.

 

All IMHO obviously, ad except for this detail, i LOVE your articles and i thank you for the work you are doing with this. I will extensively reference tio your article about guild soon

[orkdork]

Very, very cool article! I think you should add a link to PMF, or if you're feeling generous, make it a PMF article with a banner at the top proclaiming its source (check with Hateful DB on that one if you're interested).

This is really neat, Khyodee! I'll think on feedback.

[orkdork]

Chompy Dreamer doesn't deserve to be tier 3. Of the lists you have, I actually would rate that list closer to true NBorn tournament caliber than any of the others, including the Greg P-lite list. However, IME, Doppel >> Weaver in that list: once you have Lilitu and Teddy, Doppel becomes a complete and total auto-take, way beyond anything else in the game  Plus, she can run your schemes if needed, including any Don't Mind Me schemes.

So I'd rework it as:

(1)The Dreamer — 7ss
+Restless Dreams – 1ss
+Tantrum – 2ss
+Aether Connection – 1ss
(2)Day Dream – 2ss
(3)Day Dream – 2ss
(4)Day Dream – 2ss
(5)Coppelius – 8ss
(6)Lilitu – 7ss
(7)Teddy – 11ss
+On Dreaming Wings – 2ss
(8)Doppelganger – 7ss
+Retribution's Eye – 1ss

 

Another bit: Juju can't be placed upfield. It's swampfiend minions only. This is why he doesn't make the cut in Zoraida tournament lists  I'd put that list in Tier 3 with Lucius.

[Khyodee]

@Four_N_Six I can get behind that logic on Collodi and have no qualms with moving him to tier 3.

@orkdork I'll go ahead and make the Doppleganger change and bump Dreamer up to tier 2 (I'm not personally a big fan of Widow Weaver, but this was a list recommended to me by others, so I went with it)

[dancater]

12 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

I think it's well done, except I don't agree with Collodi being tier 2. He's a fine master, but building on a budget and starting in Neverborn he should probably be lowest tier, since you'll use practically none of his models with any other masters. Yes, you technically succeed staying under budget, but then you have to spend it all again when you move to a different master. 

A similar argument would be made for Marcus in Arcanist's although the new RoF Blade & Claw upgrade may change this a little adn Myranda can see action in other crews, particularly Raspy as a cheaper shape shifting Blessed.  Although I will admit these models are in faction so could be used they rarely are.

Also while I agree a NB Lucius build at <$US 100 is very difficult (and your method is the best way) I would say he is not the worst master out there.  Lucius is powerful in the right hands and the NB build is particularly nasty if you make the right purchases (but not for the tight budget so I agree with the tier).  In particular I like the Mysterious Emissary with Lucius, it gives him a nasty attack and can summon Changlings - minions, mimics and useful.  Potentially add in Candy as she can heal things (Lucius and the Mys Em), Doppleganger because it is awesome, a Freikorp Trapper (with some nasty copied attack synergy), the Illuminated, Terror Tots and Young Nephlim this can become a very nasty list.  In addition the Corrupted Hounds get an outside activation boost which is made for Lucius, Waldgeist are great minions, even a Widow Weaver and Wicked Dolls build can be made to work.  Lucius is a solid master is my summary.  His worst deficiency in NB is needing to take the upgrade to get access to Guild Lawyers.

So while I agree the nature of Lucius box and his need to spam minions to boost make him prohibitively expensive within a tight budget to build a useful NB list  I disagree that he cannot build and compete based on a NB list or is under powered, tricky and unforgiving of mistakes to play yes but he is a strong master to play with a huge range of builds between NB and Guild and his force multiplication. 

[orkdork]

1 hour ago, Khyodee said:

@orkdork I'll go ahead and make the Doppleganger change and bump Dreamer up to tier 2 (I'm not personally a big fan of Widow Weaver, but this was a list recommended to me by others, so I went with it)

Yeah, nothing against the Weaver. She's great. I'd probably put her above Coppy. But Doppel + Lilitu/Graves + Beater is really, really hard to top.

[elder]

 

 

 

Doppleganger important when playing with Teddy. As in the previous turn you charge powerful model, that has already finished his activation, and not be afraid that you will disassemble with low Df from the first activation, before you make attack.

[D_acolyte]

I wish Lucius's box was a better buy for Neverborn, it is one thing that keeps me from buying him. May be he will have a box at next years gencon. I think he is actually better in Neverborn then Guild.

[lusciousmccabe]

2 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

I wish Lynch's box was a better buy for Neverborn, it is one thing that keeps me from buying him. May be he will have a box at next years gencon. I think he is actually better in Neverborn then Guild.

Do you mean Lucius?

[D_acolyte]

sorry yes I will edit that

[lusciousmccabe]

Particularly confusing since you happened to pick the other duel faction master beginning with L.

I would agree that Lucius is better in Neverborn than in Guild, although that may change with the models from the new book. 

[D_acolyte]

Yep.

The Witchling Brutes works well with him in theory because of the auto pass horror duals. I still like him in Neverborn and it is grate that he brings us lawyers, that is about the only guild model I want from him though that may change with mounted guard and wardens coming out.

[lusciousmccabe]

The Warden is serviceable but not exeptional in Neverborn I find. It pretty much falls right between the Young Nephilim and Waldgeist in terms of function, so if you want something less specialised at that slot it can be a good choice. Austringers can also be very useful and some of the new additions might be too.

Basically Guardsmen are pretty useless in numbers and not many Mimics are minions so Neverborn Lucius is usually better off. He did used to suffer more for being outcompeted as the support Master in Neverborn, but now Nellie is cramping his style in Guild too. I think with the various pseudo-patch models and upgrades he should be able to run one or two halfway decent lists in each faction from here on in, but that's about it. 

[D_acolyte]

Not wanting to hijack this on this, I think Lucius and Nelly cover different areas. One is support and the other is control, but they are both very purple in there blood. lol.

I will be interested to see how Lucius does with the new Fae, especially Claw and the undead wolves.

Do we have a Lucius Neverborn thread?

[dancater]

I'm sure there is a Lucius thread somewhere....

The masked lord is solid with Guild, he has some functional builds but they tend towards the one dimensional.  Part of the problem is that Guild has no really solid melee damage minions, the Guild Rifleman Gunline is good but vulnerable.  The Other Guild minions are all OK and offer alright builds but you have to mass the schtick to get an effect which means lack of flexibility and obvious tactical strength for opponent to counter.  The RoF models may change this, I need to see them in the rules (still waiting on book, damn postage problem..).

In Neverborn Lucius can really shine, he is simply multiple times more flexible, you can do a single schtick list a tricky list or a flexible list.  Numerous good cheap minions (Changeling, Terror Tot, Corrupted Hounds, Wicked Dolls, the Depleted), several minions in the mid range hit hard area (the Illuminated, Young Nephelim) or other role (Waldgeist, Silurid, Black Blood Shaman).  With his out faction upgrade he can easily add the only thing he lacks Guardsman ranged (Rifleman and Pathfinder) or alternatively he can Merc in a Trapper.

In addition the NB adds several mid range and really useful enforcers and henchmen including Candy, Tuco, Mr. Tannen, Doppleganger.

Lastly some top end in Widow Weaver, Nekima, the Horseman.

One of the interesting things about the dual faction masters is that the TT models include some dual faction minions (Ashigaru, Rail Workers, the Illuminated, Wastrels) and some not (Moon Shinobi, Tokarage).

The non TT dual faction (Lucius, McMourning, Zoraida and Tara) are all primarily single faction with the only dual component being the master, some upgrades and usually the totem (although the Zombie pup is straight Rezzer).

This really makes it tough to stay in budget for multiple dual faction masters as any purchases for them in the "other" faction must be almost made completely without support from the box.  In Lucius it is particularly noticeable because his NB "other" allegiance is at least if not more interesting and powerful than his "traditional box based" Guild presentation. 

[Ergonomic Cat]

So, what I'd love to see is the next step for each of these lists.

Say the next $50 of models to add to pump each of them up?  

I'm specifically interested in the Lilith Lite list.  What's the upgrade path from there?  Swapping out Barbaros for Johan?  More upgrades?