Dealing with Viktorias

[RustAndTheCity]

Hi,

I've played a few games against the viks and I'm curious how other Arcanist players deal with them. I've faced them with Ramos and with Colette. I find their threat range means they are destroying some key models fairly easily. First game against them I got into a slug fest with Ramos. I managed to keep Joss alive and eeked out a small win. My other game was with Colette. I tried to avoid combat and scored my schemes but lost on the strategy.

I'm curious to hear how people are dealing with them. Are there Arcanist masters that are better against them? How do you mitigate their alpha strike capabilities?

Thanks!

[CougDyver]

I've had decent success with Rasputina, setting it up so Sub-Zero prevents all the crazy whirlwind combos.

[Krosanreaper]

I've only played the Vicks once, it was with Raspy and company. He avoided Rasputina directly because of Sub-Zero, Snowstorm's explosive demise ensured a revenge kill, and the blessed completely cleaned up. However he was new to outcasts and lacking in model pool and experience.

So seconding Raspy as a good counter.

[dancater]

Basically boils down to three tactics:

1. Kill the Viks, or at least one of them ideally Blood.  Not as hard as it sounds they are pretty fragile.  Colette can do movement tricks and prompts to get a beater like Howard, Joss or Cassandra in and then you unload.  Arcanists have some great beaters and they are fast.  Always risky because you miss, you likely die.  But very valid, you simply need to commit 100% if you try to do anything else you end up being conservative and a Vik missile zergs your beater.  This can also work with snipers/ranged but is harder, however options exist especially if you choose certain mercenary's.  Revenge kill works well here especially with something big enough to have them want it but not your main beater, hard to arrange however as experienced players will recognize and avoid.
2. Avoid, avoid, avoid.  So go for non-kill master strat/schemes and do not engage the Viks.  Now this is tricky, you don't actually not engage, you just engage on your terms.  Which means either or both give them a target they want which pulls them a long way out of position, let them chase it and kill it and that equals their contribution while you get VP's and win.  The other tactic is a slow chain of single tough expendable minions.  Send them up one after the other and engage, you lose each in one round but hopefully the AP expenditure cripples the Viks while your main models do there thing.  This is harder in some ways, it relies on your opponent doing and attacking what you want so less control, easier in others, its basically non-reliant on a positive result instead you're simply managing the negative result you want.  Raptors, the Gamin (I like Ice as they explode), Rail Workers, Spiders all can be sacrificed to the Vik alter of slaughter.
3. Tank them.  This is really, really difficult.  Basically put a tough master (Ironsides for example) or henchman (Joss springs to mind) in combat with them and have some sort of faction or mercenary heal nearby, you need stacked SS and no other plan for them.  Keep other Vik crew models away and then you simply try to negate, heal, avoid as much damage as possible and use things like Df Stance to keep the Viks tied up for as many rounds as possible, ideally away from really useful areas of the board (kinda including an aspect of tactic 2).  Condition application for [-] twist flips, slow and paralyze are gold here as well.  This is not easy as the Viks hit a ton and a RJ damage flip pretty much ends it or a BJ prevention at the wrong moment.  Having said that it gives you a little more control than (2) and is a little less risky than (1).

The trick I think with the Viks is to realize what they can do and commit to a single tactic to neutralize it.  If you can get to Rd 4 with them only having killed what you've been willing to lose (or even better with them dead) then you should be in a strong position.  Fighting Viks is about direction momentum and control initiative if they have it you lose if you do you win -  so if they kill what they want bad, what you want/can lose good and if they are moving where they want bad and towards where you want good.  

[Ceodoc]

In the typical Viks alpha build what is the threat range?

[dancater]

1 hour ago, Ceodoc said:

In the typical Viks alpha build what is the threat range?

That is a complex question as it depends on "whose" alpha you're talking about (opinions vary), terrain, hand composition and other variables.  With Student (or Oathkeeper) giving out Fast and Scramble for extra movement and unimpeded and Sisters in Spirit for a push.

Breakdown

By herself no upgrades Blood is threat 10" (8" Ch 2" reach) charge and 3 (Ml expert) attacks.  With Fast this is 10" 4 attacks or 15" 3 attacks.  Scramble (also critically this grants unimpeded) is +1" Wk (so 5 > 6) and Ch (so 8 > 9), so add 1" to charge (11" threat 4 attacks) and 2" to Fast walk then charge (17" threat 3 attacks).  Sisters in spirit allows the sister with the upgrade (Ashes or Vanessa) to move a sister within 6" into base contact [can't remember if this is a push or place, place would add an extra inch gain] (so this would give Blood a 6" pre-activation move to get forward and set up Los and charge lane), thus up to full 17" x4 attacks or 23" x3 attacks.  It is likely that Blood is ignoring most Df (Arm, HtK, HtW & Incorp) bonuses (Mark of Shez'uul upgrade), Melee expert and is Ml 7 [+] flips 3/4/6 damage (or 5/6/8 with sis in fury upgrade) and she can also get either +1 Ml (7 > 8) or [+] flips dam depending on circumstances, she has a Whirlwind trigger (so hits multi enemies in 2" radius LoS) and can obviously use Soul Stones.  

So best case Ashes has Sisters in Spirit, Sisters in Fury (+2 dam) and Syn Slaying (chain activation). Then Blood has Scramble and Mark Sheez'uul.  Activate Student of Conflict and grant Blood Fast.  Opponent goes.  Activate Ashes move forward Wk 5", activate Sisters in Fury and then Sisters in Spirit moving Blood up 6" and chain activate Blood (Syn Slaying).  Then Blood trigger Fast charges (threat 11") and unleashes all hell with 4 attacks at min 5 damage or walks then charges (threat 17") with 3 attacks min 5 damage (these attacks ignore nearly all def bonuses - Mark Sheez'uul).  It is devastating.   

But she is fragile, needs LoS, they have a small SS pool base and are particularly vulnerable to ranged and counter attack.  Also to max out the threat they need to stay together, include the Student of Conflict and have the full upgrades and this is expensive (I think its 11SS total, student and upgrades).  Thus you can try the tactics mentioned above and either out maneuver them (hard but not impossible) to alpha strike first, set up a counter strike, feed a single model (4 or 6 wounds at least) into the mincing machine at a time and Df stance and/or cheat Df (so forcing Viks player to 2 hit kill it wasting AP or burn resources to [SS, cheats] to one shot them) and/or make them move away from the key schemes/strat points. 

This is why the Viks are so feared and the Vik missile is a thing.   

[Ceodoc]

Ty Dan, will have a re read tomorrow.

[Ludvig]

Most crews outactivate theirs after the rat errata and arcanists have the upgrade that gives  to initiative so I think arcanists should have a better shot than most at option 1.

A wild speculation on my part would be that Colette out activating them and then prompting Imbued Langston about would let you alpha them back. They will definetly not want to spend their first turn sitting in their deployment zone so you should reach them. After the first round of attacks you should also have good odds of getting the first activation turn 2 and finish the job on one of the sisters even if they spend a full cache on preventions. A toolkit giving Langston  to his attacks should make it a little less hand dependant but a couple of really high ones to cheat is probably advisable.

[dancater]

Truth the threat of alpha/counter strike is as good, if not better (threat cannot actually fail after all) than the reality.

Basically I can simplify my previous post down to:

1. Kill the Viks, or at least Blood, do schemes/strat and win
2. Delay the Viks, do scheme/strat and win
3. Achieve neither, probably lose key models and likely lose

The Viks are the two edged sword to play.  You know your alpha strike is second to none and has a long reach, if you commit and succeed you'll kill.  But if the Vik player over extends then the girls are fragile and you'll lose one or both in a turn.  If the Viks play too conservatively you lose their advantage, too aggressively and you lose them, its a fine edge.  As their opponent they force you into exactly the same balance - if they force you to play conservatively to avoid them you'll lose the advantage and they they dictate the game, if you press to hard the Blood will shatter you in a single round of bloody mist.

Your goal is to outplay the Vik player in the paper cannon play stakes - here an experienced Vik player has an inherent advantage as they always play this balance game when they take the Viks, whereas you only play it on the occasions you face them.  

 

[Ludvig]

@dancater: I think what we all can take away from this is "always play every game as if playing the Viks and you take away their edge"  

Delaying them is super hard when you don't have the likes of flesh constructs. Ignoring every defence ever with min damage 5 and a stat of 7is really insane.

I realise you already said all of what I said in my last two posts but it bears to be repeated, the Viks have ridiculous damage!  

I guess I basically agree with you on all accounts  Threaten them so they believe that they are trading their master for something less cool by having an insane counter-threat of your own with (their) charge lanes blocked.

[Fog]

Hate to sound like a broken record, but Ramos is my go to for the sisters.

Use spiders to screen and eat activations, keep a (reactivated) hank back for the counter strike, let them bounce off of Ramos with his defensive trigger.  If you can position correctly they can only get one swing off before being pushed out of melee range. 

By using spiders to direct the alpha and keep it from being back breaking you're staring down two sisters who anything in your list can kill in a single activation.

[DrEvilmonki]

In my set list game I waited until he had activated both his sisters, pushed Joss up 5" with Angelica. Joss discarded his imbued energies, walk then charge and two hits on Blood in turn one. I stoned for positive flips, he stoned for damage prevention. and ended the turn on 1 wound. I had seize the day and won initiative with the and finished her off (assassinate scored first activation of round 2). Joss unfortunately died to Ashes (and only because I forgot to do damage prevention, only needed to prevent 1 and he would have been alive and reactivated - Doh.)

I kept Ironsides back because of  assassinate, and she had a gunsmith guarding her. I was using Ironsides to move the gunsmith and cheating in rams where I could. He had pinged the gunsmith so getting hand picked men.

I am thinking that having Joss and howard, both with imbued energies would seriously limit the Viktorias threat range. Angelica or the captain to push them about. A super elite crew but against the Viks it might work. I will be trying it.

[spooky_squirrel]

Stray thought:
Our (not yet released) new MS&U lawyer's ability (liability) and the same approach you'd use to get HPM rolling under Ironsides could potentially put their ideal targets for alpha striking out of reach.

[Fog]

I think she targets enemy models only

[spooky_squirrel]

Yeah, enemy non-masters on a trigger cannot target models with less wounds than their Wd stat. It'll at least slow down one of the sisters in turn 2 if you spend turn one scratching the paint on your own bruisers (Joss, Hank) and get the trigger.

[Trixter]

On ‎18‎.‎08‎.‎2016 at 1:19 AM, dancater said:

The trick I think with the Viks is to realize what they can do and commit to a single tactic to neutralize it.  If you can get to Rd 4 with them only having killed what you've been willing to lose (or even better with them dead) then you should be in a strong position.  Fighting Viks is about direction momentum and control initiative if they have it you lose if you do you win -  so if they kill what they want bad, what you want/can lose good and if they are moving where they want bad and towards where you want good.

Two days ago I implemented such thing on tournament:

Entice Tailor on MechRider (1 hp left) - charge Tailor by SStorm - Viks charge SS - 4 Dmg pulse - ice gamin near dead+2 Dmg pulse - Raspy BLAST both Viks.

Also I realized how difficult to predict Vik's charge/move and what Pillars provided less help than I expected.

 

[daniello_s]

Ramos is good against Viks.

Out activate them and then send Howard with Imbued Energies after Pokey. If you have Seize the Day upgrade you have pretty good chance to win initiative next turn and mop up.

[dancater]

The Viks high movement and Bloods effectively base 3AP (with melee expert its rare she won't use all 3AP especially after 1st turn) they are able to really reach out to a lot of places.  Add in pushes, chain activation's, fast (with multiple ways to achieve this) and potentially unimpeded then Blood mid board can really move to almost anywhere and can also fairly easily manage terrain by going through or around depending on needs.  The advantage is of course this does eat some AP which is always good, so don't think of things like Pillers as a prevention but as a AP sink, you force models to burn AP useful for many other things to maneuver around them or otherwise manage them.

The best way to "predict" any model in Malifaux Vik's included is to entice them where you want, make your opponent play to your tune and lead them where you want them to go.

Course that is easy to say and next to impossible to achieve consistently, in particular the best players are both good at doing it and usually even better at avoiding it.

Still sounds like your core strat idea was sound and progress was made, maybe with a tweak and refinement it works.  One game does not a pattern make nor a pattern break.

 

[Clockwork_Fish]

Colette and Envy seems a safer bet than Howard.  It's not hard to get him into a position to unload on them first turn, he hits hard and his built in positive flip means cover won't save them.

[EnternalVoid]

4 hours ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

Colette and Envy seems a safer bet than Howard.  It's not hard to get him into a position to unload on them first turn, he hits hard and his built in positive flip means cover won't save them.

The problem with Envy is they are going to try to cling to Hard Cover against him and it is Sh5 vs Df5-7 depending how they are operating.  Even if they are near a scheme marker you are only getting to Sh6.  If they have hard cover sure the positive to hit will make it strait, but the negative to damage means you are more likely to hit the 2 damage then the 5 or 6.  So more often even in soft cover you will be having negative to damage flips so hitting that moderate will not be reliable.  Langston on the other hand has Ml7 so naturally has the advantage when it comes to hitting and with weak damage 4 means the damage will stick.  Also if you are taking Ramos with Langston you might well have the Mobile Toolkit to buff Langston more.  Plus should you flip or cheat and Ram and hit, odds are they are dropping two cards or SS which always helps.  The Colette Envy trick works best if they have already activated and Envy and Colette have not as it lets you potentially do focus shots.

Personally I would prefer Langston in this regard as the Viks can take a few weak hits with SS and retaliate.  They cannot take as many weak damage 4 hits.