Learning to use Reva

[trikk]

9 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Except she can drop corpse markers like candy (especially with a help of her friends) and she can have an upgrade which disallow to reduce her damage so your Armor advice is not really helpful, you know?

BTW - the best comment about Reva I heard came from our best player in Ireland who happens to play Ressers almost exclusively. After running her few times he said she is scary... even more than scary...

Oh come on. Its like RatEngine! Totally ok, just you need to learn to play with it

[moxypoo]

Just now, trikk said:

Oh come on. Its like RatEngine! Totally ok, just you need to learn to play with it

This is my point. RatEngine and Leveticus are two example of post release errata to cuddle models that were PROVEN to be overpowered. The RatEngine was in nearly every Outcast list at Adepticon if I remember correctly, and Leveticus was winning a large proportion of major tournaments. However, Wyrd waited about 2 years before cuddling them to gather enough data to PROVE that they were overpowered. The same approach needs to be taken with Reva and every other newly released model.

[Omenbringer]

13 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Do you think so? I recall months and months of "omg Perdita is so OP" at the start of M2E, and some groups banning her from being played for a while. I think Perdita is much closer to Reva's style than Rasputina is, and I think a lot of people are struggling with Reva in exactly the same ways they used to struggle with Perdita. I also think that people will get used to coping with Reva's damage and range over time, just like they got used to coping with Perdita's.

In that vein, I think straightforward playstyle has everything to do with it. Reva's range and damage make her easy to pick up and difficult to counter. (In contrast to Lady Justice, whose abilities are difficult to use effectively and easy to counter, even though her basic approach is simple.) Anyone can look at Reva's card and see how to make her kill things, but it will take more time to learn how to stop her killing things. In the meantime, she might seem OP.

If you recall many of those posts about Perdita's brokenness were from players utilizing the extreme low end of the terrain recommendations (25% as opposed to the higher 50% from the 2-player starter). Even on tables utilizing the high end of the terrain recommendations (70% coverage with 1/3 blocking and 1/3 cover providing) Reva doesn't suffer.

I would be curious to hear how exactly you cope with a 22" threat range and minimum damage 3 across 3 Attack actions which can target the lower of WP or Df while also having a high acting value that bypasses cover and can nullify a lot of defensive tech. Particularly with your scheme runners who are there to score your VP. Many of the suggestions in this thread just don't pan out in actual play. Reva has a panoply of advantages and virtually no disadvantages, this is unlike any of the masters she has been compared to.

[benjoewoo]

Masters that run schemes, e.g. Seamus, are less vulnerable to scheme runner assassination.

Masters that pick off scheme runners aren't really new--in fact it's a very much intended factor, as some masters and their crews rely on that. Is Reva the best at it? In some situations, sure, in others no. Raspy has up to Ca 7 against Df only, but a stone and 13 guarantees at least 4 attacks barring a BJ on damage on the first attack against most models. Reva caps out at 3 barring she can actually charge a model.

I disagree on the no disadvantages part--Reva's skill is above average numerically, but is not always better than other available options. There are more anti-melee attack options than there are anti-range attack ones, e.g. cage fighter, riposte, etc. Also, Reva has no way around models that defend themselves with negative flips--e.g. mass of viscera, oldest magic, aionus' negative flips to all Ca actions--other than to focus or flip on luck. A 6 rating skill for attacking is better than the average Df/Wp 5 across all factions and all models, but doesn't quite reach the near guaranteed hit a 7 rating brings, especially when targeting the more tanky models like henchmen and enforcers. With the card flip mechanic, 6 and 7 are average flips, and considering the one number difference between Reva's skill 6 vs the average 5, only a minimally better than average flip for the defending model or a minimally worse flip for Reva makes up the difference. Considering Reva doesn't have a way to boost her stat or built in method to debuff the stat, she has to hire models to do it for her--crooligans on Wp, canine remains on Df, etc. I wouldn't say her attack is amazing because of the 6 rating skill--it's better than average over the entire spectrum of available models. What makes it good is that it generally extends to 22.1811" with a minor ability to bend around corners and can avoid defensive triggers and abilities in some cases. 

Some mechanics are also harder for her to deal with than other masters that tend to have skill rating 7 on their attacks, e.g. Pandora Wp resist, Francisco Df/Wp buff, and the general 6 defensive stat line for "tougher" theme models and most henchmen/enforcers. A flat skill rating 6 that chooses Df or Wp is nice, but if you're forced to choose a 6 defensive stat there's a lot of stress on your control hand to get a hit. Raspy may have to deal with cover, but her Ca 7 is more likely to hit those higher defensive stat models than Reva. Look at masters with a skill rating 6 like Seamus for an example--people tend to focus and shoot to make it more likely the opponent has to cheat first, so that they can appropriately gauge if they need to cheat, as a 13 on a Df 7 model means Seamus cannot hit without a RJ.

If the range is the only issue, consider that currently, any non-Katanaka sniper standing on a corpse can shoot Reva if she were to need to draw range from that particular corpse, since they're all 18" range without focus. They can also shoot twice to Reva's three, and the snipers generally have Sh 6 or better rating with repeat triggers, damage increase triggers, or other great utility, so roughly on par with Reva, who has a resource dependent damage buff trigger, a healing trigger, a push, and a charge trigger with an upgrade. Reva only forces them to focus if the corpse marker she's drawing range from is in front of them. Simply lowering her range may not be the fix she may need--otherwise we might just create a worse version of Perdita. 

[TheJoyInGaming]

5 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

If you recall many of those posts about Perdita's brokenness were from players utilizing the extreme low end of the terrain recommendations (25% as opposed to the higher 50% from the 2-player starter). Even on tables utilizing the high end of the terrain recommendations (70% coverage with 1/3 blocking and 1/3 cover providing) Reva doesn't suffer.

I would be curious to hear how exactly you cope with a 22" threat range and minimum damage 3 across 3 Attack actions which can target the lower of WP or Df while also having a high acting value that bypasses cover and can nullify a lot of defensive tech. Particularly with your scheme runners who are there to score your VP. Many of the suggestions in this thread just don't pan out in actual play. Reva has a panoply of advantages and virtually no disadvantages, this is unlike any of the masters she has been compared to.

I think that the biggest reason as to why she's over powered is that she is remarkably unimpeded by terrain. She is height 3 allowing her to see over vast swathes over the board, and she can attack from the most ridiculous angles at any given time. Because of this Reva can control the board almost as well as she kills. I just need to make sure an area is covered with a couple corpse markers and, as long as Reva is still alive, i can refocus my attention to it with almost no AP cost in moving models or anything. If i took Beyond Death than i can have an additional AP and can charge through terrain and models rendering most attempts at trying to mitigate her useless. 

I love Reva and her style but i think it is a bit much. Frankly i think adding a clause to Ethereal Reaping saying that this is attack is affected by hard and soft cover penalties would keep her flavor alive while affording opponents some hope.

 

[Kadeton]

9 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

If you recall many of those posts about Perdita's brokenness were from players utilizing the extreme low end of the terrain recommendations (25% as opposed to the higher 50% from the 2-player starter). Even on tables utilizing the high end of the terrain recommendations (70% coverage with 1/3 blocking and 1/3 cover providing) Reva doesn't suffer.

I would be curious to hear how exactly you cope with a 22" threat range and minimum damage 3 across 3 Attack actions which can target the lower of WP or Df while also having a high acting value that bypasses cover and can nullify a lot of defensive tech. Particularly with your scheme runners who are there to score your VP. Many of the suggestions in this thread just don't pan out in actual play. Reva has a panoply of advantages and virtually no disadvantages, this is unlike any of the masters she has been compared to.

A lot of the Perdita crying was from people playing on perfectly reasonable terrain. However, "You're not using enough terrain" became the standard response to Perdita complaints, and over time (as players got used to fighting her, and started winning) the complaints mostly faded away.

Reva can't place Corpse markers 18" away from herself whenever she wants, and she still needs LoS to the Corpses, so the idea of a permanent 22" ranged threat is largely a furphy. If you're talking about her dropping a corpse, teleporting to it, and charging one of my models... sure, it might die. Reva will be dead before the end of the turn, because she's way upfield into my kill zone, and I brought more than one threat.

At the moment I must admit to being particularly unconcerned about seeing Reva across the table, because I'm playing Ressers and in a Resser v Resser game I think she's one of the weakest options. Yes, please feed me more Corpses - I will happily claim them as my own.

The way I intend to protect my schemers from her is by applying pressure, the same way you do against any ranged Master. She kills a schemer or two, fine, but my hitters are up in her face since she's not killing them. They'll get the schemes done after she's gone.

When was the last time you played against Viktoria? A Vik slingshot easily has a 22" threat range, 3 (or 4) attacks at Ml 7 dealing 5/6/8 with to hit and damage, that nullifies almost all defensive tech, and can Whirlwind for even more attacks. Does that terrify you? It sure makes Reva look like a kitten in comparison. We can go back and forth like this all day - for any given thing Reva can do, there's already something in the game that does that same thing but way more so. I'm not saying Reva's not scary - she's a top-tier Master, for sure. She's just isn't the unstoppable god that some are making her out to be. A year from now, anyone looking back through these threads will wonder what all the fuss was about.

[Omenbringer]

6 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Raspy has up to Ca 7 against Df only, but a stone and 13 guarantees at least 4 attacks barring a BJ on damage on the first attack against most models. Reva caps out at 3 barring she can actually charge a model.

Raspy has to worry about many things that Reva ignores, chief among them is cover, a close second would be engagements.

Also I don't think Reva's Charge shenanigans have really been fully explored yet for full potency. I suspect that there is some really nasty potential there as well but of course why risk exposing her to harm when she is so effective from distance. And you forgot Reva's 0 Action which is also damaging though is more dependent upon her succeeding well for damage (not affected by Hard or Impossible to Wound either).

8 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

When was the last time you played against Viktoria? A Vik slingshot easily has a 22" threat range, 3 (or 4) attacks at Ml 7 dealing 5/6/8 with to hit and damage, that nullifies almost all defensive tech, and can Whirlwind for even more attacks. Does that terrify you? It sure makes Reva look like a kitten in comparison. We can go back and forth like this all day - for any given thing Reva can do, there's already something in the game that does that same thing but way more so. I'm not saying Reva's not scary - she's a top-tier Master, for sure. She's just isn't the unstoppable god that some are making her out to be. A year from now, anyone looking back through these threads will wonder what all the fuss was about.

The Vik sling shot is not a single model interaction, Reva's is.

Again I am not stating she is unbeatable. I am saying she is substantially above the power curve and needs some more attention before general release (this is an issue with a hard publication date, short play test cycles, and a ton of models to test). Also consider that many are trying the recommendations that have been posted here, perhaps some positive battle reports will begin showing up.

I am however sensing that this thread is nearing its inevitable nadir where sides dig in and nothing constructive happens. If you think there is nothing wrong with Reva and that everything will pan out in the wash, that is cool, others disagree and would prefer it be addressed. I consider this discussion to have been productive regardless but will be departing it.

[TheTrans]

Actually, Revas full take a model or 2 off the table in one turn is...in my games...a 3 model combo, Yin, Vince then Reva. So IMHO the Vik argument holds up very well and is a good point!

[Kadeton]

1 hour ago, Omenbringer said:

I am saying she is substantially above the power curve and needs some more attention before general release (this is an issue with a hard publication date, short play test cycles, and a ton of models to test).

Oh, I think that idea might be a misapprehension of what "pre-release" means in this context. This isn't a beta that's still being worked on - Reva's rules are finalised. Without something truly game-breaking being discovered, nothing is going to change before her "general release". Even if Wyrd were committed to changing some aspect of her, that would happen through an errata at this stage.

[colron]

A fun thought I had.....If you used Hans PING ability " PING: this models SH actions deal no damage. after succeeding with SH action discard one upgrade from target" on a soulbound Shieldbearer you should be able to extend it's life past the one kill. Shieldbearer's chosen reads : CHOSEN: if this model would be killed and does not have a soulbound upgrade attatched, it is not killed. it heales all damage and attaches a soulbound upgrade"

[MalifauxMartin]

I know this is the resser section but Wow! 

 

[HomelessOne]

As noted in the separate thread colron created, this doesn't work. Soulbound upgrades stipulate they cannot be discarded or removed.