Jafar Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 From time to time I have real big issues with summoners. Especially in stats and schemes where number of models may play big role. Also I have problems with Kirai in ALL stats and schemes. So far I found two good solutions to them, one is Levi with summoning upgrade on shooting attack and Lazarus. Levi picks easy to kill enemy models (low wounds etc.) and creates abominations and Lazarus drop blasts Second is Jack Daw with A&D. I use 0 AP obey from Jack to cast that DF test on A&D, mostly all ressers have lower DF so it's effective. Nurse / Jack Daw focuses on enemy master to stop summoning (only take walk actions, only take MI action, drop curse etc.). In some cases Jakuma lures stuff important for summoner, examples: Nicodem itself so he needs to take walk action to be in range to corpse markers or lure Flesh Construct away from Kirai etc. So here goes my questions: - are there nice counters to summoners in Iron / Bone Levi? I think that some Belles / doxy combo can work in similar way to Jakuma lures and Mech Rider can help with out activation. - Is Hamelin good idea? Are his rats good counter to summoning masters? - Are there any other masters in Outcast good against summoners? How do you play against summoners as outcast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 My usual counter is for Levy has been to Charge the opponent's Master and do 8 damage three times with melee. Taelor can accomplish a lot too. Hamelin can do a Ratjoy maneuver to get into an opponent's backline and take down the summoner (even now).. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 The Friekorps specialist can remove Corpse and Scrap markers. Makes life harder for Nicodem and Ramos. He also does area damage, which makes life harder for Kirai and Dreamer. Summoners are typically very hand dependent. so anything which places demands on their hand is normally good. But otherwise, its hard to give a general counter to summoners, as they do it so differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, Hateful Darkblack said: My usual counter is for Levy has been to Charge the opponent's Master and do 8 damage three times with melee. Taelor can accomplish a lot too. Hamelin can do a Ratjoy maneuver to get into an opponent's backline and take down the summoner (even now).. Levi - hard to accomplish and dependent heavily on your good hand. Really, really dependent. Hamelin + Ratjoy - very good move unless it is Kirai who will re-direct every hit after first to Ikiryo. I like to use Bone Levi with 2 Belles and lure summoner close to me and try to rip it apart with Rusty (and her gun) and Levi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusciousmccabe Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 Hamelin is quite good in Interference since he can outnumber pretty much anyone and negate their models with trats. He's also good at dragging stuff into the centre of the board and tarpitting with various annoying junk. He has a pretty serious issue with Kirai (and Levi) though since they can turn his insignificant rats into minions quite easily, which can mean you end up feeding them models, rather than the other way around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 Masters generally need to spend resources to obtain their summons, AP, cards, stones, scrap or corpse markers. Tie them up, force them to consume those resources for survival. If it's Kirai, drain wounds on her summon batteries. As said, Specialist can get rid of markers, as can anyone near the Steam Trunk if you're playing Von Schill. You don't have to beat them at their own game. Force them to play yours. If Ikiryo is summoned, leave her in play until you've killed everything else that can summon her, or bury her if you have Hannah or Tara about. Against So'mer charge his Bayou Gremlins or otherwise kill them (blasts are good). They're not particularly tough. Kill any support pieces (like Slop Haulers). Outcasts aren't subtle, but they are effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jafar Posted August 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 Small update from my side. I own Levi, JD with some toys (some non outcast tormented models) and VS (but don't play him). Never used Specialist, outside JD crew he is too slow for me. Before he can targer Nicodem, i need at least 1 or 2 turns of only walking to sum up current ideas: - Focus on Bone Levi and get some Belles / Doxy to smash lurred summoner - Hamelin is good, but in some cases it can backfire at you (Kirai / Levi) Any other ideas? What about Viks and Iron Levi (Mech Rider, Hunters, Howard etc.)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Freman said: If Ikiryo is summoned, leave her in play until you've killed everything else that can summon her, or bury her if you have Hannah or Tara about. You know that smart Resser player will hit you with her and then sacrifice her to pop up the next time you hit him again? I've played many times against top player in Ireland and his Kirai and I have struggled every time with this pesky Resser girl... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Posted August 2, 2016 Report Share Posted August 2, 2016 Kirai is one of the strongest Ressur masters, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireuser Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 17 hours ago, Jafar said: Second is Jack Daw with A&D. I use 0 AP obey from Jack to cast that DF test on A&D, mostly all ressers have lower DF so it's effective. How is Jack Daw using a (0) obey on Ashes and Dust? Doesn't that have to target tormented models? The only way yo make Ashes and Dust tormented that I am aware of is to attack him with Daw and give him one of your curses. which seems like a bit of a waste to me. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoregard Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 I believe the guilty share a tormented characteristic, not condition. A&D can become tormented 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireuser Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 I don't have my cards/book with me, but if that is the case, it seems like a pretty big design inconsistency. Lynch uses the Under the Influence condition to apply the Brilliance characteristic. If a condition is not used at all, then the opponent can do nothing to remove it once applied to one of their models as well. I will double check once i get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 They don't give a condition, just the Characteristic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoregard Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 id call it an inconsistency if lynchs drugs were supposed to work like jack daws torment, but im pretty sure they were aware of it because IIRC Lady Ligeias torment is a condition, whereas the guilty is not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacks85 Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 3 hours ago, Khoregard said: id call it an inconsistency if lynchs drugs were supposed to work like jack daws torment, but im pretty sure they were aware of it because IIRC Lady Ligeias torment is a condition, whereas the guilty is not Not true. Both Lady Nigeria and Guilty abilities throw out a characteristic, not a condition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jafar Posted August 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 Have anyone used MechRider with Levi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 Yes, many times. It is amazing piece of support for Levi (and anyone to this matter). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jafar Posted August 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 5 minutes ago, daniello_s said: Yes, many times. It is amazing piece of support for Levi (and anyone to this matter). Was it good against summoners? In theory it gives you more activation control, hard to remove minion and at top of all helps with scheme markers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 Plus she makes schemes like Set Up or Detonate Charges a lot easier to complete. And is really fast which means she can take out enemy scheme runners quite well. Lots of pros for this Rider-girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacks85 Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Jafar said: Have anyone used MechRider with Levi? It's a god. It's an overpowered model in general, in outcast is pure force because we have nothing to throw schemes around - and almost nothing to summon beside rats. So it's definitively a must imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 13 minutes ago, Blacks85 said: It's an overpowered model in general... I would be careful with such statements. And it costs 12SS so it is fair price for such good model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacks85 Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 29 minutes ago, daniello_s said: I would be careful with such statements. And it costs 12SS so it is fair price for such good model. I believe - with GG2016 - it's too strong being able to do some schemes ~automatically, summoning around and being ~unkillable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Blacks85 said: I believe - with GG2016 - it's too strong being able to do some schemes ~automatically, summoning around and being ~unkillable But it got made a lot weaker in GG2016 compared to the rulebook schemes It is a strong model, but I generally found that after you had faced it a few times and realised what it did, and how it did it, it was not so strong as to be an always take. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 33 minutes ago, Blacks85 said: I believe - with GG2016 - it's too strong being able to do some schemes ~automatically, summoning around and being ~unkillable It dies pretty fast when you put some serious pressure on it especially on turn 1 and 2. Conditions like Burning and Poison (I'm looking at you McMourning!) are deadly for this model too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted August 3, 2016 Report Share Posted August 3, 2016 Its way weaker in GG16, and there are plenty of ways to get through its best defence. Big Jake is a very good choice in interference. He can hold a quarter by himself, and if he dies he can contest almost any quarter turn 5. Simply amazing! Lazarus and Vanessa can put out quite a lot of blasts over turns. Taelor is ok, but Welcome to Malifaux can also put her in dangerous places; she will not survive for that long. Trappers can fire away from a safe distance while holding a quarter or two. Against summoners I find that it is best to bring the fight to them. So they have to spend resources on keeping their (important) models alive rather than bringing in new ones. Hamelin can be a solid choice since his peons can engage models after they have activated. Beware of Hunting Party though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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