Lets look at Enforcers, Show of Force and Hunting Party

[Hagisman]

I'm getting into a Theory Faux mood as of late and it's made me want to re-evaluate the benefits of Enforcers. What with the new Schemes benefiting them more this has become a bit easier. My feelings right now boil down to 3 types of enforcers; those that are kill-y for Hunting Party, those that have staying power for Show of Force, and those that are both. I might look at this in depth later on, but what do you guys think? Which Enforcers work better at Hunting Party than Show of Force?

Right now the Emissary and Executioner are on my Hunting Party list, but McCabe's Brutal Emissary might be more Hunting Party because he can take a McCabe upgrade.

All Guild Enforcer List:

Abuela Ortega

Brutal Emissary

Executioner

Exorcist

Greed

Guard Sergeant

Nino Ortega

Nurse Heartsbane

Pale Rider

Papa Loco

Peacekeeper

Santiago Ortega

The Lone Marshal

Witchling Handler

[Ludvig]

Half of them are weedy supporters or want to kill themselves  

I think the peacekeeper could do fairly well as both hangaround and killing machine. The executioner can snack on stuff (really his preferred playstyle) but might not last if he isn't given snacks. The problem is a lot of them aren't exactly fast (marshal excepted) and if you want to have upgrades in the middle they need to contend with the henchmen who are similarly costed,  similarly durable on the card but can use soulstones to survive and can have more upgrades.

[D_acolyte]

Disclaimer: I am not a guild player.

So I tend to think that for Show of Force you want multiple non master attached upgrade and I shoot for having 3 because of this I would look at your 6-8 stone enforcers which will be 7-9 once they have the upgrades.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, D_acolyte said:

Disclaimer: I am not a guild player.

So I tend to think that for Show of Force you want multiple non master attached upgrade and I shoot for having 3 because of this I would look at your 6-8 stone enforcers which will be 7-9 once they have the upgrades.

For show of force the trouble with guild is also which upgrades to take. Do you want a 2ss upgrade to get 1 point of armour (that most models can't even take if they wanted to since they can't have armour before they take it) or do you want the 1 ss upgrade that let's you interact at the end of the game? (Where almost no schemes score anymore)

The henchmen all have access to a personal upgrade and a couple of actually wortwhile ones like dampening field. I have done the scheme a couple of times with a henchman and an enforcer. I think this option would be advisable to guild.

The hunting party can be set up in a lot of fun ways.

[lusciousmccabe]

Henchmen also have the advantage of being able to take more upgrades per model, which I think really pushes them over the edge for Show of Force. For Hunting Party I think some of the cheaper Enforcers are able to compete a bit better since you might need to spread out to find targets. Nino and the two guys on horseback spring to mind for that. 

 

21 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

For show of force the trouble with guild is also which upgrades to take. Do you want a 2ss upgrade to get 1 point of armour (that most models can't even take if they wanted to since they can't have armour before they take it) or do you want the 1 ss upgrade that let's you interact at the end of the game? (Where almost no schemes score anymore)

Hey, if Show of Force and Search the Ruins both happen to come up I think that upgrade is pretty great. There's also that one that lets you push towards scheme markers I believe? And the various family ones which might be better.  

[LunarSol]

Expert Sleuth is generally our only remotely playable generic.  Luckily its pretty good too.

I think the Emissary is generally our best Enforcer with an upgrade though.  The only other combos I rate are Papa with Hermanos, Peacekeeper with Sleuth and the Handler can be alright with Disrupt Magic and a couple Stalkers in the right list.  Our enforcers in general though already cost a bit more than they want to and certainly don't gain anything from the things you can use to make them cost more.

[Bucket Monkey]

For me hunting party tends to be the Emmisary first up. With  Sonnia, McCabe and Justice he's a no brainier.  I'd always take the master specific upgrade so except for mccabes where he normally gets Glowing Sabre as his bonus upgrade, he wouldn't be good for show of force, even then I'm more likely to give that to a guild hound, warden or brutal effigy  

i like Santiago too. He's got a decent sh attack, he's only 7ss and you can always give him an upgrade if you need to. He'd be an option for doing both, hold the middle and shoot out towards minions. He's a staple if I need a middling enforcer  

peacekeeper is definitely good for holding the centre  but he is a fire magnet, though he's finds it  easy to kill minions and peons though for hunting party as his claws have min damage 4 with his built in ram for crit strike and his ranged is good too  

 

papa loco in theory can be good at taking out minions  his ranged and dynamite punch are more than capable  it's keeping him out of blast range of your own crew  though he would be a deterrent for show of force of there's some blocking terrain in the bubble  

Lone marshal has his pushes to keep him mobile. And pale rider can be tough by turn 3/4, though both are rarely taken by me. Both of these would get expert sleuth or plant evidence if I were going towards show of force. 

[Ludvig]

9 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Henchmen also have the advantage of being able to take more upgrades per model, which I think really pushes them over the edge for Show of Force. For Hunting Party I think some of the cheaper Enforcers are able to compete a bit better since you might need to spread out to find targets. Nino and the two guys on horseback spring to mind for that. 

 

Hey, if Show of Force and Search the Ruins both happen to come up I think that upgrade is pretty great. There's also that one that lets you push towards scheme markers I believe? And the various family ones which might be better.  

I need to start playing that pool! They're both suited right? 

[Myyrä]

7 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Expert Sleuth is generally our only remotely playable generic.  Luckily its pretty good too.

I think the Emissary is generally our best Enforcer with an upgrade though.  The only other combos I rate are Papa with Hermanos, Peacekeeper with Sleuth and the Handler can be alright with Disrupt Magic and a couple Stalkers in the right list.  Our enforcers in general though already cost a bit more than they want to and certainly don't gain anything from the things you can use to make them cost more.

Expert Sleuth is a bit problematic in show of force, because the more useful ability requires discarding the upgrade. Show of force also doesn't count 0 cost upgrades, so Emissary isn't that great there unless you take him with McCabe or do something really weird.

If I were building a list for show of force and hunting party, I would take Francisco and Sidir. That's two models that can pretty survive on their own in the middle of the field, like to carry 4 upgrades in total and are killy enough to to score some hunting party points on occasion.

[trikk]

And they don`t even want to blow themselves up!

I think Plant Evidence is also useful in this scenario, especially on the Lone Marshal. He can one shot scheme runners with the (2) action. is quite mobile and with Plant Evidence he can get you at least 1 VP.

Sidir and Francisco are definitely the way to go. Dashel with Dampening Field also, if you go with him. 

Grimwell also has his own decent upgrade.

Heartsbane with Dispel Magic also seems fine.

 

[Ludvig]

3 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Expert Sleuth is a bit problematic in show of force, because the more useful ability requires discarding the upgrade. Show of force also doesn't count 0 cost upgrades, so Emissary isn't that great there unless you take him with McCabe or do something really weird.

If I were building a list for show of force and hunting party, I would take Francisco and Sidir. That's two models that can pretty survive on their own in the middle of the field, like to carry 4 upgrades in total and are killy enough to to score some hunting party points on occasion.

Solid suggestion. El Mayor, By your side and Riposte also combos nicely in my mind.

[Myyrä]

28 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Solid suggestion. El Mayor, By your side and Riposte also combos nicely in my mind.

It has worked for me on the table as well. Not to mention that Franc is a pretty serious melee threat with from promises.

[trikk]

I used this with Justice. Justice with  is also pretty silly. Vendetta potential can make it even funnier

[Hagisman]

17 hours ago, Bucket Monkey said:

For me hunting party tends to be the Emmisary first up. With  Sonnia, McCabe and Justice he's a no brainier.  I'd always take the master specific upgrade so except for mccabes where he normally gets Glowing Sabre as his bonus upgrade, he wouldn't be good for show of force, even then I'm more likely to give that to a guild hound, warden or brutal effigy 

I don't understand giving the Emissary Glowing Sabre. I always give him Elixer of Life. Regen +2 and his Strategy Regen makes him nigh unkillable.

[Ludvig]

22 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

I don't understand giving the Emissary Glowing Sabre. I always give him Elixer of Life. Regen +2 and his Strategy Regen makes him nigh unkillable.

The upgrades are going to jump all atound the board no matter what. Is there some really big reason to have the saber or regen turn one? I'd opt for the nimble so you can get it on more models turn one. Emmissary nimbles, throws upgrade to someone. Someone activates and nimbles. McCabe goes, takes it home to give a model reactivate and throws the nimble to the reactivating model. 

[LunarSol]

10 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Expert Sleuth is a bit problematic in show of force, because the more useful ability requires discarding the upgrade. Show of force also doesn't count 0 cost upgrades, so Emissary isn't that great there unless you take him with McCabe or do something really weird.

If I were building a list for show of force and hunting party, I would take Francisco and Sidir. That's two models that can pretty survive on their own in the middle of the field, like to carry 4 upgrades in total and are killy enough to to score some hunting party points on occasion.

Duh on my part.  Shows what I get for trying to force upgrades on our enforcers.  I do personally prefer the (0) of Expert Sleuth though, if only because its so sad when you discard and still fail.  

I do really like Francisco and Sidir combo'd up with Lady J though.  It's also not bad with McMourning.  The Judge can add to the combo, but starts to be a few too many eggs in a basket thing.

[Bucket Monkey]

1 hour ago, Hagisman said:

I don't understand giving the Emissary Glowing Sabre. I always give him Elixer of Life. Regen +2 and his Strategy Regen makes him nigh unkillable.

It means I can take Speed, shirt and promises on McCabe. Saves a soulstone to get the sabre. Emmisary always throws it out turn one as I like the bury too much. 

I see see the potential in elixir, sabre suits my style of play more. I rarely lose the Emmisary as he's quite tough from the get go. 

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Bucket Monkey said:

It means I can take Speed, shirt and promises on McCabe. Saves a soulstone to get the sabre. Emmisary always throws it out turn one as I like the bury too much. 

I see see the potential in elixir, sabre suits my style of play more. I rarely lose the Emmisary as he's quite tough from the get go. 

The real question here is why you don't start with the badge of speed on the emmissary? It is also 2ss.

[Hagisman]

2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The real question here is why you don't start with the badge of speed on the emissary? It is also 2ss.

You'd probably want to get its reactivate off on a Minion model before giving it to the Emissary. Granted turn 1 either McCabe or Emissary will have to throw away an upgrade for the other to toss one to them. Both would start at capacity for upgrades in a perfect world.

[Ludvig]

Just now, Hagisman said:

You'd probably want to get its reactivate off on a Minion model before giving it to the Emissary. Granted turn 1 either McCabe or Emissary will have to throw away an upgrade for the other to toss one to them. Both would start at capacity for upgrades in a perfect world.

I'm not sure I get it. Is the emmissary used for some sort of alpha strike? As long as McCabe goes after the emmissary (and additional bonus-walker) he can just bring the upgrade home automatically when he activates. It's a free walk compared to the other options.

[Hagisman]

4 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I'm not sure I get it. Is the emmissary used for some sort of alpha strike? As long as McCabe goes after the emmissary (and additional bonus-walker) he can just bring the upgrade home automatically when he activates. It's a free walk compared to the other options.

But when does the Upgrade return to him?

If its when he activates he might be starting with 3 Upgrades and cannot return the upgrade. If its an action he can take then he is fine. I'm still learning McCabe so I might be wrong.

[Bucket Monkey]

30 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The real question here is why you don't start with the badge of speed on the emmissary? It is also 2ss.

Generally I'd only be able to toss two upgrades from McCabe as I won't burn a tome for the trigger and I generally need the lowtomes for wardens, ryle ect. So wouldn't want the Emmisary to nimble, Lucas pickup then get another nimble, as I want the sabre and armour in circulation turn 1 aswell as the nimble. May give it a go next time though, hope for a couple of low times. Or Maybe see about holding off the armour in circulation till the top of turn two. 

[trikk]

10 hours ago, Hagisman said:

But when does the Upgrade return to him?

If its when he activates he might be starting with 3 Upgrades and cannot return the upgrade. If its an action he can take then he is fine. I'm still learning McCabe so I might be wrong.

The "Loot" ability does not say that "and attach it to itself following normal restrictions" so IMHO Lucas can have 4 upgrades with Loot, as long as the Emissary buys one of them.

[Munindk]

29 minutes ago, trikk said:

The "Loot" ability does not say that "and attach it to itself following normal restrictions" so IMHO Lucas can have 4 upgrades with Loot, as long as the Emissary buys one of them.

I dont have the book i front of me, but if it doesnt say "and attach it to itself ignoring the normal restrictions" I would be hesitant to play it like you're suggesting.

[trikk]

4 minutes ago, Munindk said:

I dont have the book i front of me, but if it doesnt say "and attach it to itself ignoring the normal restrictions" I would be hesitant to play it like you're suggesting.

OK, I think it might require a FAQ, since hesitantly I`m willing to agree on that. I do however agree that having 4 upgrades with Lucas McCabe pre Shifting Loyalties was impossible (I think, Jack Daw might have something to say about that.)

 

"Loan: When this model Activates, or before a
friendly model within 10" is killed or sacrificed,
this model may discard any Upgrades with the
Restriction Lucas McCabe from any friendly
model within 10" and attach them to itself."