Strangedane Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 Hello! I recently started playing this lovely game, and have been reading all available fluff I could get my hands on. Know, I have never had any illusions about any factions in the Malifaux universe - they all have an angle, but I just finished "shifting loyalties", and MAN do the Ten Thunders come off as very, very plotting and well, a bunch of .....! So, my question is; are they really as bad as those pages suggest? I mean, sure Seamus is more evil, the Neverborn are, well the Neverborn and so on, but they are sort of up front about it, you are not surprised about their actions. But that coldheartedness that was in that book concerning the Ten Thunders motives, well it took me by surprise!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chryspainthemum Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 Whoa whoa, Neverborn are not evil. Neverborn are literally the defending force, Lilith just wants the invaders to GTFO so she can get her life back to normal (I mean... I'm not sure what's on the daily agenda for a Nephilim if no humans are around, but anyways). All the factions have a certain hardness to them, with certain Masters being more relatable and others less. Sonnia isn't exactly on the level, but Hoffman? Seems like a pretty good guy. Ramos vs Mei Feng vs Marcus are pretty massively different motivations. Etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 Yeah, if there's a good guy in Malifaux, I think it's clearly the Lilith/Zoraida part of the Neverborn. Ten Thunders are, I'd say, on a level with the Guild on a good guy/bad guy scale, which equates on my mind to approximately The Galactic Empire and the Mafia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Strangedane said: Hello! I recently started playing this lovely game, and have been reading all available fluff I could get my hands on. Know, I have never had any illusions about any factions in the Malifaux universe - they all have an angle, but I just finished "shifting loyalties", and MAN do the Ten Thunders come off as very, very plotting and well, a bunch of .....! So, my question is; are they really as bad as those pages suggest? I mean, sure Seamus is more evil, the Neverborn are, well the Neverborn and so on, but they are sort of up front about it, you are not surprised about their actions. But that coldheartedness that was in that book concerning the Ten Thunders motives, well it took me by surprise!? I think it's more fair if you consider the Ten Thunders in the context of what happened in the real world in China during the 19th century leading up to the actual Boxer Rebellion. They're not storybook heroes, but the real people in history which created the situation leading up to the real world Boxer Rebellion sure aren't what you'd call heroes either. The European Spheres of Influence and the rest... Is the Ten Thunders portrayed as being incredibly ruthless? Yeah. Do they have justification to do what they are doing? Yes, they do. If they succeed, will they be hailed as patriots? Hell yeah. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexus Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 They're literally a crime syndicate lol. They collect protection money, run opium dens, the whole deal. According to the fluff, the 10 Thunders is just out to get as big of a piece of the pie as they can. Their leader "wants all of Malifaux at his feet." (according to the main rulebook) I'm actually more curious where you would've gotten the idea that they're good guys in any way, shape, or form. O.o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 I think Mei could very easily be seen as heroic; McCabe is modeled on one of American cinemas greatest heroes and is himself essentially a revenge story that we can sympathize with; Shenlong has similarities with the good guy in any number of kung fu movies... It's easy to paint at least some aspects of the faction as Good Guys. When I say I think of them as bad guys though, I mean Misaki and Yan Lo. You there could be a compelling Corleone route narrative behind them, but in the end the mob are killers and worse, so no matter what kind of story they have, it's usually the case that they stack up more on the bad side than the good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexus Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 1 hour ago, tomjoad said: I think Mei could very easily be seen as heroic In one of the stories, Mei is shown torturing some poor guy who can't pay his protection money. Like actual torture. With knives. ...and then you find out that she tortures people on a regular basis, this isn't even a one-time thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangedane Posted March 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 Well I never thought of them as complete good guys - I don't get the feeling that those exist in this setting. But before I read this last book, I had a feeling that they were trying to help their people as much as possible, their intentions seemed to be to save their own, even if that meant carving/taking it, from someone else (read Guild). They had a sort of honor about them. Then I read that torture part with Mei, and on the whole, it seemed like that was common practice for the entirety of the TT?! Just left me wondering.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDeathTrout Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 8 hours ago, Nexus said: In one of the stories, Mei is shown torturing some poor guy who can't pay his protection money. Like actual torture. With knives. ...and then you find out that she tortures people on a regular basis, this isn't even a one-time thing. Yeah. That story was the first time I felt "bad" about my faction. I know they were Mafia, but I always saw them more like freedom fighters doing what the had to to protect the Three Kingdoms and stand up to the guild. But I guess they are more like the Mafia, out for themselves with no regard for the rest of the Three Kingdoms. Not heroic in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duront Posted March 24, 2016 Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 The Ten Thunders fluff has never been "great". Our stories switch between Shenlong being so incompetent that he can't kill a single Freikorp librarian without going into full dragon Avatar forum and pointlessly cruel like the new mei feng story. The whole thing where mei fengs brother is literally the Boxer in the boxer rebellion is pretty stupid, thats like Americans having a game called The Tea Party Attendant for the boston tea party or The Million Man for the million man march. I liked the originial fluff more where they were moving in the background to work against something bigger maybe the tyrants maybe something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangedane Posted March 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2016 I just felt it as being way more dark than the rest of the fluff, made me have a "wait, WHAT?!" moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted March 25, 2016 Report Share Posted March 25, 2016 15 hours ago, nschwier said: I liked the originial fluff more where they were moving in the background to work against something bigger maybe the tyrants maybe something else? What 'something bigger'? You mean the alternate history version of European Imperialism? Because that's pretty much the motivation set down in Storm of Shadows, which the Breachside Broadcast hasn't gotten to yet. The Final Word is probably the most flattering version of the story, as far as motivation goes. The rest of the background seemed to mostly be Misaki trying to coordinate and/or control the various factions and individuals involved. On the other hand, compare how things go down: For the Arcanists you've got the good Doctor's front organization and the corresponding terrorist network, and then there's Rasputina's cannibal cult. You've got the Guild being the Guild, alternating with the people involved trying to do the occasional good thing, occasionally involving the death of a Guild official. There's the various Neverborn factions which regard humans as vile abominations, and the Neverborn which just regard humans as animals for amusement. The Ressurectionists, demonstrating that treating everyone as raw materials. The Gremlins being gremlins The Ten Thunders making the devil's deal in a bid to "Make the Three Kingdoms Great Again!" Unfortunately, the devil being bargained are often being one of the Ten Thunders warlords. The Outcasts being a bunch of self-interested adventurers But as far as I can tell, what the Boxer rebellion stuff is doing is establishing a few things: Establishes the parallels with real history to provide the overall political motivation. It would have been better to have "The Iron Tiger" or something, but try rewriting that story explaining why the Iron Tiger is leading The Righteous and Harmonious Fists or "Boxers United in Righteousness"... It's tricky because in the real world, the People's Republic of China forms in 1912 followed by the civil war in 1949, and the Malifaux timeline is sitting at 1906. So all of this sort of has to diverge really quickly, but this is the stuff that had the Ten Thunders doing what they were doing in The Final Word. Establishes that the Ten Thunders is both reacting to and exploiting the situation, for their own interests. Establishes that the powers that be in the Ten Thunders are just as self-interested as some of the warlords and parties involved in the real world were. Occasionally tries to make people appear sympathetic. Heck, even the people trying to avoid the end of the world aren't being particularly nice about it. What's Zoraida's hobby concerning the people who wander out into the swamp that keeps her busy when she needs a break from saving the world from the tyrants? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaclaws01 Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 On 3/24/2016 at 11:31 AM, nschwier said: Shenlong being so incompetent that he can't kill a single Freikorp librarian without going into full dragon Avatar forum That's not what happened though. The was The Dragon getting impatient. Shenlong himself barely fought the Librarian at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake of Godzilla Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Great topic - thanks for starting it. The point of the 10T "not so" shifting loyalties story (because very little happened in the individual faction stories and Lucius only proved what we all know about him all along) was to provide a reason that Mei might be questioning if the means justify the ends. At least that's what I took away from it. To the other points - the handling of the boxer rebellion was poorly done if its meant to follow earth history but I think Wyrd can always play the "alternative timeline/earth" card as a get out of jail free. As to good vs evil - no one faction is really good or bad, that's kind of the idea of Malifaux. Ressers as an example are for the most part REALLY bad (Seamus etc) but they also have some of the most heroic masters in the game - Molly and Kirai. The same argument can be made about some 10T masters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 15 minutes ago, Wake of Godzilla said: As to good vs evil - no one faction is really good or bad, that's kind of the idea of Malifaux. Ressers as an example are for the most part REALLY bad (Seamus etc) but they also have some of the most heroic masters in the game - Molly and Kirai. The same argument can be made about some 10T masters. They're hardly heroic if you ask me. Kirai is killing people to exact personal vengeance. Molly isn't evil but she's hardly heroic either. A hero is someone who sacrifices their own wellbeing for a greater idea of something good, both Molly and Kirai are motivated by personal agendas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druso Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 The only guys who I think might be "good" in classic rpg games are Lady Justice because of his black&white sense of justice and Hoffman and not so much since he is doing all the stuff in order to save his brother. As far as I have read, Zoraida and Leveticus are trying to save the world...but they are far from good guys. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RarerMonsters Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 The Ten Thunders are based, very accurately, on the real world behavior of a lot of organized crime. People of a certain type face mistreatment and alienation in the dominant power structure of the world. Unable to succeed by legitimate means, they turn to criminal ones, and that comes with all the brutality that's inherent in that. They don't turn from it, though, they embrace it. That's because brutality breeds power, and a social order with the power to back it up ensures their safety when nothing else will. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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