Mark for Death 2016

[Eshadie]

This came up in a game last week and I'm curious as to what the proper action is here as it's similar to the situation of Flat vs. Impossible to Wound.

Bad Juju has an upgrade that when he is reduced to 0 wounds, he is buried, healed back to full and all conditions are to be removed from him.

9: Mark For Death
This Scheme may not start revealed.
All non-Peon models in this Crew may target a non-Peon enemy model they are engaged with with a (1) Interact Action to give the target the following Condition for the rest of the game:
“Marked: This condition may not be removed or ended.”
Reveal this Scheme once an enemy model gains the Marked condition. When an enemy model with the Marked Condition is reduced to 0 Wounds or leaves play, gain 1 VP *note that it does not mention removing the condition after you score.

I know in most cases, Model Card takes priority, but we were unsure of how this actually plays out legally as to which trumps which.

Thoughts?

[Myyrä]

I think "This condition may not be removed or ended."

[Bengt]

Either Marked can be removed by any and all abilities/actions that remove conditions, or none of them (all of them are after all printed on stat cards). So I think it's obvious that it's the latter.

[Eshadie]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

I think "This condition may not be removed or ended."

That's the way we ran it during our game.

[madaxeman]

So you could score twice by reducing the same model to zero wounds twice...having only marked him once? 

Neat! 

[BigHammer]

37 minutes ago, madaxeman said:

So you could score twice by reducing the same model to zero wounds twice...having only marked him once? 

Neat! 

Or removing them from play twice. Another of Leveticus' favourite new schemes

[Myyrä]

27 minutes ago, Adran said:

Unfortunately writing this answer has just made me realise that the scheme rules are wrong. 

I can't see anything that stops you scoring when you reduce something to zero, and then scoring again when it is removed from play (from being reduced to 0).

You are not the only one to notice that. Unfortunately, it would require an ungodly amount of text to make the intent absolutely clear.

[Lakshman]

41 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

You are not the only one to notice that. Unfortunately, it would require an ungodly amount of text to make the intent absolutely clear.

Not really, it would suffice to limit scoring to once per given model, or stating it is removed once the VP is scored.

[Adran]

I would have gone with "this condition will only give a maximum of 1 VP per turn". Which from the once per turn rules we know will be once per turn per model.

 

[Myyrä]

41 minutes ago, Lakshman said:

Not really, it would suffice to limit scoring to once per given model, or stating it is removed once the VP is scored.

That would change how the scheme works. I think there are valid reasons to allow scoring from the same model several times during the game.

16 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would have gone with "this condition will only give a maximum of 1 VP per turn". Which from the once per turn rules we know will be once per turn per model.

To make that work, you would need to make the condition to give VP instead of the scheme, and there aren't any rules governing VP gains from conditions. It would get past the 3 points per scheme limitation for example. Also, you apparently can't assume that people have read and understood the rules when writing Gaining Grounds document.

[feagaur]

I guess what they could have said on the card is that the condition is only removed once VP is scored from it. Or scoring VP from it removes the condition (similar to the way scheme markers are sometimes removed to score points).

Otherwise getting Marked on models like Bette Noir means you would only ever really need to target her to get your points for the scheme.

[PeregrineFalcon]

21 minutes ago, feagaur said:

I guess what they could have said on the card is that the condition is only removed once VP is scored from it. Or scoring VP from it removes the condition (similar to the way scheme markers are sometimes removed to score points).

Otherwise getting Marked on models like Bette Noir means you would only ever really need to target her to get your points for the scheme.

This is correct and the intended purpose of the wording. It is a scheme which can score all in one turn if you do it right.

[solkan]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

Unfortunately writing this answer has just made me realise that the scheme rules are wrong. 

I can't see anything that stops you scoring when you reduce something to zero, and then scoring again when it is removed from play (from being reduced to 0).

I think it's been fifteen years by now that the rules for Privateer Press's Warmachine/Hordes have had the statement "When a model enters or ends its activation, ..." as 'This happens once, the first time you satisfy one of the conditions, not twice."  They don't release a formal FAQ, so their rules volunteers have to repeat the clarification on a regular basis.

So, there is the plain counter argument that words themselves specify that you get the points once (and only once) for killing a model in the normal process of reducing it to zero wounds and then removing it from play.  Because getting victory points each time a model is reduced to 0 wounds or leaves play (so that you get points twice for killing a model in the normal process) would have been expressed differently.

 

[Adran]

Its not the card trumps the rules, its the most specific rule wins. 

In this case Bad juju has the "general" rule that when he buries he removes conditions. 

Marked for death has the more specific rule that this condition can not be removed or ended. So it doesn't get removed by eternal fiend. 

So yes, you can mark for death 1 model, and if you remove it or reduce it to 0 wounds you score a point. You'll get that point every time you do it to a model.

 

Unfortunately writing this answer has just made me realise that the scheme rules are wrong. 

I can't see anything that stops you scoring when you reduce something to zero, and then scoring again when it is removed from play (from being reduced to 0).