Burning and Hem

[feagaur]

A question was raised on facebook yesterday that seemed quite open to interpretation.

Basically a situation had arisen where Johan had been Hemmed by the Voodoo doll and the doll (and hence Johan) given Burning 5.

Now the Doll had 2 wounds left and Johan had 6 wounds left.

The argument was, does the burning happen to Johan first, taking him down to 1 wound and hence negating hard to kill, and then the Hem kills him. Or does the Hem hit first  and then the burning meaning that Johan survives due to hard to kill?

The main point raised was that in the rule book it states that the sequence in which conditions are applied are down to the owner of the model. My point was that Hem is a reactive condition and requires the Burning to happen first meaning that it can't be applied before the burning.

 

What are peoples thoughts?

[Adran]

At the end of turn the first play resolves the effects on their model, and then the second player resolves effects on their model. 

So If the Player that activated first on that turn was the Johan Player, then they would have suffered 5 damage from Burning, and the when the Voodoo doll took its 2 daamge Johan will take 2 damage. 

If the Voodoo player went first, the voodoo doll will take 2 damage from burning, and then Johan will take 2, and then Resolve his burning, to take anotehr 5

[Phinn]

The Turn - End Phase - Upkeep (Malifaux 2E, Page 35):
If models from both players are affected, the First Player's models will resolve their effects first.

If Zoraida is the first player, Voodoo Doll suffers damage from Burning first and those 2 damage are transfered to Johan before he suffers 5 damage from his Burning Condition leaving him with 1 Wound due to Hard to Kill.
If Johan's controller is the first player, Johan suffers 5 damage from Burning, bringing him to 1 Wound. Then Voodoo Doll suffers damage from Burning...

[feagaur]

But as the burning condition states that 'During the upkeep any model that has the burning condition takes damage', does that not mean that burning affects all models simultaneously?

I could understand if it were burning and poison happening on Johan, then it would be up to the player as both happen at the same time, but Hem can only occur after Burning has happened, so Burning affects both models, then hem affects Johan, almost like a second step in the upkeep.

[solkan]

31 minutes ago, feagaur said:

But as the burning condition states that 'During the upkeep any model that has the burning condition takes damage', does that not mean that burning affects all models simultaneously?

See the rules for the End Phase:

1. Upkeep
The Upkeep Step is where the end of the Turn bookkeeping takes place. Effects that do not list a specific duration, or which end at the end of the Turn, end during the Upkeep Step.

In the unlikely event that the order in which multiple effects ending would affect the outcome, then the affected model's owning player determines the order in which they are resolved. If models from both players are affected, the First Player's models will resolve their effects first.

In other words:  No. 

[Artiee]

4 hours ago, feagaur said:

But as the burning condition states that 'During the upkeep any model that has the burning condition takes damage', does that not mean that burning affects all models simultaneously?

I could understand if it were burning and poison happening on Johan, then it would be up to the player as both happen at the same time, but Hem can only occur after Burning has happened, so Burning affects both models, then hem affects Johan, almost like a second step in the upkeep.

The Burning condition actually states, Burning +1: At the end of the turn this model suffers +1 damage, then remove this Condition.

 

 

 

[Adran]

The Hem condition doesn't do anything at the end of a turn. It only does things when the Doll gains a condition or takes damage. It will apply that when ever it happens.

 But models are damaged one at a time when the timing makes a difference. so you will need to follow the rules, and in this case the effects will depend on who is the first player. 

[Artiee]

The effects are not normally resolved First Player -> Second Player. They just take effect.  The order of the Player only matters if in the event that the multiple effects ending would affect the outcome.  If models from both players are affected, the First Player will resolve their effects first.

If 2 ending effects happens on one model, the owning player determines the order they are resolved.

Page 32, (small book), End Phase, Upkeep, last para.

in your case,  If First player was Johan,  He would take burning +5 for 5 dmg leaving 1 wound left., then the doll would take burning +5 for 2 dmg and Johan would take 2 dmg for hem.   Which would kill Johan.  If Zoradia was First player, The doll would take burning +2 for 2 dmg, Johan would take 2 dmg for hem, leaving Johan with 4 wounds and then Johan would take burning +5 for 5 dmg but Hard to Kill hits so only 4 dmg leaving Johan with 1 wound.

In the case for example if Johan with 6 wounds left, had Burning +5 and poison +1 conditions.  The owner of Johan would choose the order of the burning and poison dmg.  Burning 1st will kill Johan,  Poison 1st will leave Johan at 1 wound.