Sonnias nemesis?

[WyrdMatt]

Hi Everyone, just a quick questions (kinda).

Just got sonnias crew box. What is Sonnia's worst match ups generally and what guild master would fill those gaps?

Thanks in advance,

matt

 

 

 

[Dirial]

Freikorps. Perdita hoses them, though.

[zFiend]

Sonnia's worst enemy? A better player. Doesn't really matter what crew that person takes. Malifaux is a game that comes down to skill more than anything else. 

[EnternalVoid]

I really kind of dislike that answer.  Cause while skill is important the right match up can level some of the ground between two players.  Sure if one opponent is clearly better they will have that advantage and it is an advantage, But Bad match ups do exist and so does Luck.  Between the two a less experience or skill opponent has a chance against one that is better.  This is true for a lot of things and kind of feels like a cop out answer.  A player can work to be better by gaining experience, learning new things, and expanding his knowledge of the game but the models are generally going to be the constants in this equation as they will not change in stats, abilities, or actions with out new upgrades or erratas.  You might re-evaluate a model and its card as you go, but the cards themselves generally do not change.  So learning where certain ones might falter while other ones excel is a way to improve oneself as a player.

I will agree with Dirial that Freikorp models are a good example of what can pose a problem for Sonnia as they are less concerned about grouping up then other models.  With Armor +1 on top of this Sonnia's Flameburst's damage spread it more like 1/2/4.  Sure she can still take down a Freikorpsmann with a couple shots, but unlike against a different sort of grouping she could be possible spread it around as well softening other models up.  In addition if they are playing Von Shill they can have his Totem which for a (0) action plus a card someone can remove burning.  Meaning they might be able to limit Sonna's ability to attack regardless of LOS as she lacks Companion to activate immediately afterwards if some other model tries to set it up for her.  In addition models like Von Shill and the Strongarm suit can both charge regardless of being in Combat, meaning if Sonnia tries to tie them up with another model to prevent them from reaching her, they can still charge her if she is withing their range and LOS while ignoring terrain and other models.  It makes it harder to keep her out of the thick of it.  Finally she has to consider her defense against the Freikorp as most have range attacks and if she is buffing her own defense she is not buffing her Ca for attacking.

Personally I would say that one of Sonnia's hardest problems as a generally whole are people that are capable of throwing confident alpha strikes that possess strong offense.  Unless you are aware of these sort of tricks it is easy to be caught off guard by them.  But some of them, even being aware of them, will still pose a problem due to the manner they are launched, the range, and/or the attack power.  It is one of the reason some swear by using Francisco with her as he can free her from combat and buff her defenses or taking the Malifaux Child and going for two sets of Flame Walls to try and control the field.  In my opinion her second hardest problem will be those models capable of laying down negative modifiers on her attacks and more so if they can stack those modifiers.  This makes it harder to use her AP effectively as she does not have many options for supporting her own crew.  At which point if the rest of the crew cannot pick up the slack you find yourself starting to fall behind in momentum.

As for what masters best support her as other options, again I favor Dirial's opinion of Perdita as a pick.  Not just because she is a strong master herself and dangerous in ways that Sonnia is not but her box also gives Sonnia more options while Sonnia's box gives Perdita an option with Witchling stalkers.  I think their boxes support each other a bit, namely early on when someone is starting.  It starts to fill in some of the gaps each box has when you are starting off.  That said, Perdita often is not as threatened by Alpha Strikes as they will generally have to go for Francisco first or hold off their strike for later in the game *so no longer quite an Alpha strike*.  Perdita is also deadly in Melee range and is not shut down there as much as Sonnia.  The two boxes allow for more experimentation on composition for a beginning player.

[zFiend]

You can dislike it all you want and hold it as a cop out answer. It doesn't change that it is so. A better skilled player with Sonnia will win against a less skilled player with Von Schill pretty close to every single game. Luck and bad match ups aren't enough to close the gap between skill. Not in malifaux. 

Actually speaking of cop outs, a true cop out is to say you only lost because of the match up or luck. Then you are undermining the other players efforts and skill. And frankly being very rude. 

[enderwiggin]

Let's pretend both views hold equal weight for a moment...

What will be far more useful to the topic at hand are the more thorough answers rather than shorter ones. Give examples of tactics and ways that players can reduce that player gap, whether by crew selections if you feel that way, or by playing tactics and strategies if you feel more strongly on that side of the fence.

Think of the OP and/or newer players people.

---

Personally, while I feel Malifaux is very balanced compared to many other miniatures games I don't believe for a moment that the truth isn't a blend of the two views. There are both better crew selections/models than others but with the advantage of building a list after seeing objectives if you don't improve personal skill then you can't take advantage of the choices available.

[zFiend]

What will be far more useful to the topic at hand are the more thorough answers rather than shorter ones. Give examples of tactics and ways that players can reduce that player gap, whether by crew selections if you feel that way, or by playing tactics and strategies if you feel more strongly on that side of the fence.

Think of the OP and/or newer players people

I see no tactics and ways to help in your post either, yet you were eager to disregard other people's posts and critize them but with 0 content on your own.

[RarerMonsters]

You can dislike it all you want and hold it as a cop out answer. It doesn't change that it is so. A better skilled player with Sonnia will win against a less skilled player with Von Schill pretty close to every single game. Luck and bad match ups aren't enough to close the gap between skill. Not in malifaux. 

Actually speaking of cop outs, a true cop out is to say you only lost because of the match up or luck. Then you are undermining the other players efforts and skill. And frankly being very rude. 

Preparing for potential matchups is an important part of being skilled with Sonnia. Yes, a crew largely immune to Blast Damage is harder for Sonnia to deal with than a Nicodem summoning army wielded by players of equivalent skill. A player who ignores this and treats all opponents the same is not playing skillfully. And no, saying "the better player will win" is not advice or helpful.

People are correct that Von Schill and the Friekorps can ignore her blast damage. She is not doomed against them, however, as she can still do damage to her primary target, cause burning damage, and her crew can achieve objectives which don't involve killing as well as anyone else can. If you're up against Outcasts, it could be a good idea to bring more Single target models. If you're sure your opponent will bring Friekorps, you'll probably see more success out of Perdita or Lady Justice.

Other tough Matchups include Mei Feng, Ramos, Hoffman, and other construct heavy masters. They can run fewer, more expensive models supplemented by disposable smalls that you don't get too much out of killing, and armor dampens blast damage. Again, with Sonnia focus on her spellbreaking and dampening abilities rather than just blasting. Also, keep in mind the guild's option for armor cracking.

 If you wanted a more dedicated anti-construct master, Hoffman and Lady J both work, either by playing the Construct game as well himself or killing tough targets with truly overwhelming force

 

[zFiend]

Well it's not like the whole Sonnia crew must and will do only blasts. Hence Von Schill is not her crew's arch nemesis. There a lot of other Guild models that Sonnia can lead very well against the Freikorps. 

"Better player will win is not advice or helpful" Nope. It's not advice, it's fact. That's why you can't go ahead and say that this master is this masters nemesis and this master will do bad against this master. That's just ignorance. 

And we have tested it and seen it happen for what, two years or more now in my meta that it doesn't matter, it makes absolutely zero difference what crew the less skilled player takes against the more skilled one, no matter how hard you gimp your crew, take sub-optimal lists and still play intentionally bad, the less skilled player won't win the games. 

The question was simple, hence the answer was simple, it's not about the masters. 

[Math Mathonwy]

And we have tested it and seen it happen for what, two years or more now in my meta that it doesn't matter, it makes absolutely zero difference what crew the less skilled player takes against the more skilled one, no matter how hard you gimp your crew, take sub-optimal lists and still play intentionally bad, the less skilled player won't win the games. 

My Ophelia vs your Yan Lo! Then the other way around

But yeah, I agree, on a Master vs Master level skill is way more important. Now, if you fix some other things as well (Strategy, Scheme Pool, terrain, whole crews) then you can obviously concoct a scenario where the more skillfull will likely lose but if you're just talking at the Master level, I wholly agree with you.

And for the OP, I think that Perdita complements Sonnia nicely in that one excels in killing crowds and hampering movement while the other is the queen of single target damage and has a slew of movement tricks. McCabe or McMourning are also good pairings for Sonnia as they generally allow for a more mobile style and have a really easy time with some Schemes that a typical Sonnia list might struggle with.

[Kadeton]

"Skill" is obviously the most important factor, but knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your own and your opponent's models, and how to focus your strengths and exploit your opponent's weaknesses, is the largest part of what constitutes skill in this game.

I understand the reaction against the notion of bad matchups - becoming a skilled player will let you overcome any of those obstacles. Let's focus on helping WyrdMatt become a skilled player, yeah? Expanding his model repertoire with another Guild box that complements Sonnia's (Perdita's a great suggestion) is a good place to start.

[WyrdMatt]

"Skill" is obviously the most important factor, but knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your own and your opponent's models, and how to focus your strengths and exploit your opponent's weaknesses, is the largest part of what constitutes skill in this game.

I understand the reaction against the notion of bad matchups - becoming a skilled player will let you overcome any of those obstacles. Let's focus on helping WyrdMatt become a skilled player, yeah? Expanding his model repertoire with another Guild box that complements Sonnia's (Perdita's a great suggestion) is a good place to start.

Some really good posts in this thread and a few nerves have been touched but the above I have quoted is by far the most relevant. Nice work Kadeton.

[Rurouni Benshin]

My first game against Sonnia was with Shenlong.  Both of us were relatively inexperienced with our Masters, but I believe my list synergy worked better than his.  Between Sensei Yu and Shenlong, I was able to send Kang, Izamu, and the Lone Swordsman 5" up the board (with a couple of them "Fast") before they needed to activate.  He made the unfortunate mistake of bringing Sonnia out into the open (via Papa Loco's "Hermanos de Armas") without any support.  Took my chance at that point to charge with Kang and The Lone Swordsman, and assassinated her before she got a chance to activate.

That all said, I'm sure if he were more familiar with Sonnia, or had even seen Shenlong once before, he'd probably have a better idea of how my crew worked.  Granted I had equal experience in facing Sonnia, but in this particular case, I believe it was my experience with my crew that was superior to his experience with his that made the difference. 

So if you're planning on bringing Sonnia against a faction that you feel would give her a rough time (ie - Outcasts), be prepared with the proper back up.  Francisco and Sidir are great Henchmen that can matchup well with most of the Guild masters.  The Emissary is also a great choice, but then I also personally like Sonnia's Avatar model the best out of her faction.

[Argentbadger]

"Skill" is obviously the most important factor, but knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your own and your opponent's models, and how to focus your strengths and exploit your opponent's weaknesses, is the largest part of what constitutes skill in this game.

I understand the reaction against the notion of bad matchups - becoming a skilled player will let you overcome any of those obstacles. Let's focus on helping WyrdMatt become a skilled player, yeah? Expanding his model repertoire with another Guild box that complements Sonnia's (Perdita's a great suggestion) is a good place to start.

Flippant replies aside, this is the crux of the thread.  The question here from the OP (inference on my part, of course) is simply 'how can I get better at this game.'  For me, this is a well phrased and specific way to ask that very general question.  While it is very easy to say 'the skilled player wins the game' the interesting part is, as should happen in most events, you meet a player of equal skill: how do you gain the edge that takes you to the victory?

I've played a lot of Sonnia in the UK tournament scene this year so the rest of my post is based on my personal experience; other gaming groups might not see the same distribution of factions, skilled players, terrain or other variables.  I'm not going to touch here on terrain or strategy / scheme pools, as that would need an essay bigger than even PullMyFinger would require.  Let us assume that the terrain and scheme pools are such that you would feel comfortable playing Sonnia (or that you've committed to her for some personal reason); therefore I'll focus only on the potential match ups.

Guild:  In general I'm fine with playing Sonnia into Guild.  If both sides want a straight up firefight, Sonnia is well equipped to deliver on your side.  You obviously need to take care with positioning against very shooty crew.

Gremlins:  I don't have a lot of experience here and but a lot of Gremlin crews focus on numerical advantage by taking large numbers of relatively cheap options such as Bayou Gremlins.  Sonnia is well placed to deal with that kind of crew.

Ten Thunders:  I like Sonnia well enough into Ten Thunders.  Mei Feng can do double or triple Vent Steam to make it hard to target her, but that comes at the cost of her own tricks and might arguably be worth allowing if it gives you a chance to focus on pieces outside the cloud.  Hungering Darkness absolutely hates to see Sonnia as it is almost the best target in the game for Flame Burst.  You'll also occasionally catch a Shenlong player on autopilot lighting their own master on fire.

Neverborn:  Sonnia provides a good answer to Dreamer (crowd control) and Pandora (due to her extraordinary attack statistic).  Other masters feel like a reasonable match up.

Arcanists:  Malifaux Raptors and Soulstone Miners can be a big pain to play around unless you bodyguard yourself well.  Sonnia can make Ramos's life very difficult by clearing out his summons.  Most of the Arcanists are quite sad if you can catch them in Disrupt Magic.  But Arcanists can also bring some very mobile hard hitting options such as the Blessed of December or Cerberus (and can use Myranda to get them even closer for delivery).  Therefore you need to be quite wary of playing Sonnia into Arcanists.

Resurrectionists:  Counterspell Aura can make Rotten Belles very sad, and if playing against a summoning-focussed crew Sonnia is amazing for crowd control  But on the other hand, Sonnia doesn't like to see a lot of Hard To Wound, and Kirai is a nightmare to work against using Sonnia even using Flame Wall shenanigans to avoid triggering Ikiryo.  I also got beaten hard by (the admittedly very skilled) MalifauxMartin's Molly/Sybelle/Killjoy crew once, though I'm not sure that wasn't just Martin correctly counterpicking me and delivering his play very beautifully.

Outcasts:  I almost never choose to play Sonnia into Outcasts.  Freikorps suits can shut down a lot of her most effective plays, but more importantly, I worry about meeting Tara supported by a meaningful number of Freikorps.  The local wisdom here seems to be that Tara is an effective drop for Outcasts facing Guild in some schemes and she can turn off the Papa Loco / Pine Box thing very easily.  Indeed, at the recent UKGT 2015 I forgot this while playing Ressurectionist Tara and got punished for it.  I actually like Sonnia a lot against Jack Daw, Hamlin and the Viktorias and I can live with her against Leveticus and Misaki.

You need to build up the kind of experience that will tell you 1) whether Sonnia in your hands is right for the strategy, schemes and terrain, 2) whether those factors will be likely to bring the other player to choose a particular master and 3) whether that likely master is a good fit for the way you play Sonnia.  Of course, this is true for the entire game.  And ZFiend does make a good point about skill - a player with a big enough skill advantage will be able to play though any perceived or actual advantage in crew selection; I've been on both sides of this.

In the interests of the original true question (i.e. 'how can I improve my skill') I suggest to play Sonnia into every match up you can for a while so that you can find her limitations and strengths.  I've played most of the 2015 tournament 'season' with pretty much only Sonnia and Perdita and I have not once felt that I was disadvantaged by doing so, even against the strongest players in my country.

Edit: I even forgot my obligatory self-promotion!  There are event reports from every tournament I've played using Guild in the Battle Report sub-forum if you're the kind of person who can learn from that kind of source.  Feel free to keep asking questions - the more specific the question, the more effective an answer you might get.  But don't believe all the group-think on here, including this post.  Your experiences will vary from ours.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Argentbadger

[enderwiggin]

From my own experiences, I can help with the obvious disclaimer of local meta affecting experience for readers to keep in mind.

Criid matches up pretty well against Fated Collodi since the whole puppet ball thing tends to be a happy explosionfest. Especially if you take Brutal out, the ball can fall quickly apart and Criid can pick off stragglers easily. If they stay clumped up? Even worse for the ball...

I haven't used him as much, but my normal Hamelin build doesn't really worry much either. While rats can go down quick, the core rat crew can control activations for very cheap and I find plenty of points for ranged and heavy hitting support via Ashes and Dust, Trappers, or Convict gunslinger/Sue. Hamelin is pretty underplayed for me atm, so this may be fluke play. The man himself is one of the hardest masters to kill in the game though if you don't take his extra lives out. Note: Take the extra lives out (The Stolen).

Rasputina matches tend to be in her favor, even though I feel Raspy is a weaker blaster on paper. The availability of models to destroy Criid's hand lend themselves well and I really feel the Arcanist have a number of strong models like the Rider and Langston to rely upon. At the moment I'm still working out her peculiarities since she's newer for me, but Raspy is proving to be quite fun in a variety of matches (probably about as versatile as Criid).

 

That's the only standout things I can think of at the moment, the rest of the masters I play regularly enough (Lynch, Pandy, Ramos, and Perdita) it's pretty even bets usually. I can't imagine Yan Blow doing well against her, but Collette would probably be a fair match up if I had that whole crew put together.

 

 

 

[trikk]

Well, Criid with CounterSpell Aura can block Rasputina quite  well, as she will need a suit to even get the TN in a 7" bubble?

[enderwiggin]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, the trigger is much harder to get, but she doesn't need her triggers to be able to work... they just make it easier. Plus, she can always resort to directly freezing for fun and profit if the enemy stays bunched up. Or immune to blasts if you roll in that upgrade direction.

Anyway, I find it's far more economical to simply freeze two or more models than try to blow them all up if they cluster up that much (which is silly when the rest of the crew is throwing down scheme markers).

[trikk]

Decembers curse requires 11. with a Ca 7. If Sonnia has CounterSpell Aura and you target anything within 3" of her you lose built in suits, so you need a 4+ just to meet the TN.

[enderwiggin]

Oh that TN, I was wondering what test Raspy was taking, but then I don't usually see that particular ability succeeding at that low of a Tn usually anyway.

I guess you could see it as a setback, but it's nothing but minor annoyance at worst really if you're prepared. If you're spending master AP then you're going to have (should have) a better card in hand than just a 4+, or some stones. If not, then just use freeze over and go the control route. This is even without considering that I feel the Arcanist crew choices are better via Acolytes and, thus, you can drag them those few inches away from the bubble easily enough, drain cards, and do decent damage. Also never discount what Langston with an additional +2 armor can weather when diving in, just pop imbued and go in for fun times.

[Ashlian]

just my 2cent:

Sonnia has no weakness and is awesome! (slightly biased)

But, generally i don't think matchup are the most important factor when determining advantages. I mostly notice that the objectives are what can cause a game to get a bit unbalanced. sonnia and basic crew is good, but lacks tools like better mobility or crowd control like a hunters harpoon.

so if you want to increase crew strenght of sonnia in my opinion you should get:

*witchling handler + extra stalkers (never enough)

*guild guard + hounds + sergeant/captain (so maybe lucius box)

* hunter + peacekeeper 

*austringer (but i personaly don't like playing them)

 

I don't really think you need a second master to bypass her weaknesses. just construct your crew depending on the situation and if you don't play to reckless and protect her, then sonnia wil always be a glorious shining artillery piece that will lay ruin to all who stand in her way!

but as mentioned above perdita is nice, although i would personnaly recommend L justice (heavy meelee instead of heavy range so ideal for "bad matchups". just keep sonnia out of Close Combat and get LJ in it as fast as possible)

 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ashlian

[Munindk]

Noob question: The starterset models are all Witch Hunters, do they have any noteworthy synergy with Sonnia, other than benefitting from the Disrupt Magic upgrade?

[Myyrä]

Noob question: The starterset models are all Witch Hunters, do they have any noteworthy synergy with Sonnia, other than benefitting from the Disrupt Magic upgrade?

Not as such, but Orderlies are pretty fast and definitely make for better scheme runners than Stalkers, and Grimwell and Heartsbane can help Sonnia with her mobility and either of them can carry the Disrupt Magic upgrade instead of her.

[Freman]

Sonnia is a fire type, so her nemesis would be water types, like Rasputina.

[Myyrä]

Sonnia is a fire type, so her nemesis would be water types, like Rasputina.

Ice type is weak to fire.

[Freman]

So I've been playing them wrong... that explains a lot.