Of Buggers, Doxys and Gross Indecency – Your thoughts on Guild Law

[Werner von Urslingen]

Hello, darlings!

(Hoping this is the right Sub-Forum. Fingers crossed)

I’ve been thinking about the Malifaux background-story for some time, and seeing as I’m a Law Student, I’m especially interested in the legal system of the Soulstone Mecca that is Malifaux City. I just love setting up narratives, detailed backstories and theorising about the particulars of the Malifaux Universe and while I’m more than happy (perhaps a bit too happy) to supplement any unanswered questions or vacuities with my own head-cannon, I thought I’d be fun to ask you guys what your thoughts are. 

My general questions are the following:

   1. From what I can understand, while effectively a superpower, the Guild is not a Nation State or a political entity per se – much like, say, the British East India Company or Hanseatic League. Therefore, one have to ask the question if the Guild has its own Criminal Code, Obscenity laws etc. or whether it’s simply applying British Common Law (assuming the Guild is British)?

   2. It is obvious that Malifaux is inspired by Victorian society to some extent, or at least the time period – with all the moral standards that implies. At the same time, it is also obvious that the Guild is a mercantile organization with primarily (if not solely) mercantile/monetary interests. Even if they are greedy Croesus-wannabes first and upholders of law and order a distant second – does the Guild nevertheless take an interest in the “furtherance of justice” and the “upholding of public morality”?

 

I think these questions are interesting because, depending on the answer, they have pretty far-reaching consequences. For example:

 

•    Does the Guild condone prostitution and/or procuring? Is it illegal, regulated, ignored, legal or perhaps even by the Guild itself? Are there Guild-owned brothels and nightclubs, or are these private enterprises? It is obvious that prostitution and nightlife exists in Malifaux, but what’s the Guild’s stance on it?
•    Does the Guild have Buggery (Sodomy) laws, Gross Indecency statures or the like? This is far from a “commercial” interest, but when you think about it Buggery Laws has been enforced in basically all western societies until recent modernity. Is it a matter treated with discretion, judgement or is it simply ignored?
•    Does racism exist within the Guild? Of course, racism exists everywhere, but is it especially so within the guild? I’ve only ever seen Caucasian guild-members (save for Lucius, but he doesn’t really count, does he?) – would it be far-fetched to assume that the Guild harbors the same “White Man’s Burden”-ideas and thinly-veiled supremacist thoughts that were common in Victorian times? Or, once again, does commercial interest completely trump cultural disposition (if there s any)?

(How would this gentleman fare in Guild-run Malifaux? Assuming wouldn't be able to kill with magic poetry, that is)

In my own narrative, plenty of the characters are of different ethnicity, background and sexual preferences – from the fiercely homophobic, Polish-German mercenary Frantz Jarowskij (My count-as Von Schill) to the urbane French-Creole Nightclub-owner Vivien La Croix with a tastes almost as diverse as his wardrobe. It would be fun to know if these characters would fit in with the universe that Wyrd intended. I have always assumed that the Guild is just as conservative and uptight as 1870s Great Britain, but it would be fun to know your take on it. 

TL;DR: Guild Law and Victorian Morals – Closely related or just distant cousins? 

Would love to hear you thoughts!

Tchüss

 

/Werner

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by Werner von Urslingen

[Hagisman]

First thing that needs to take into account is that the Breach was created when Sorcerer/Wizards used magic to open up a portal to save magic.(TL:DR version).

The fallout from this could have caused a lot of things to change. Especially consider the religious presence inside Malifaux. There are no churches as far as the backstories I have read, no religious clergymen. The only thing close are graveyards which appear to be run by shady individuals such as Nicodem. In fact the only religous models are the Exorcists, who the Guild just sort of allow to operate.

This isn't to say that there are not religious people, just that religious institutions do not seem to be present.

   1. From what I can understand, while effectively a superpower, the Guild is not a Nation State or a political entity per se – much like, say, the British East India Company or Hanseatic League. Therefore, one have to ask the question if the Guild has its own Criminal Code, Obscenity laws etc. or whether it’s simply applying British Common Law (assuming the Guild is British)

 From how the lore treats the Guild it can be assumed that they are backed by some Nation. This is left up to ambiguity, however a key thing to know is that the Guild has a Governor-General. The state of Malifaux City is similar to how the Caribbean seems in tales of the Golden Age of Pirating. Of which while the law of the land was supposedly their homeland, but as a "frontier" the laws were not always enforced. In particular look to the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and old westerns.

2. It is obvious that Malifaux is inspired by Victorian society to some extent, or at least the time period – with all the moral standards that implies. At the same time, it is also obvious that the Guild is a mercantile organization with primarily (if not solely) mercantile/monetary interests. Even if they are greedy Croesus-wannabes first and upholders of law and order a distant second – does the Guild nevertheless take an interest in the “furtherance of justice” and the “upholding of public morality”?

 There are Guild Officials that seek out justice, the original three masters are very much this. Seeking out the Necromancer, Demon, and Witches. You cannot be in charge if everyone thinks your organization only protects their self interests.

Does the Guild condone prostitution and/or procuring? Is it illegal, regulated, ignored, legal or perhaps even by the Guild itself? Are there Guild-owned brothels and nightclubs, or are these private enterprises? It is obvious that prostitution and nightlife exists in Malifaux, but what’s the Guild’s stance on it?

In many stories there are Guild Officials who have hired escorts or are caught at brothels. Rarely does it seem that the Guild actually owns said establishments, if they do it is only because a Guild Official owns it privately. These are apparently legal in the same way that it was in the frontier, it gets lonely working on a farm or mine and what better way to take you mind off of your sorry lot. It reminds me a lot of how Firefly treated the matter the upper classes do not care to ask who a beautiful woman is on your arm, but the lower classes it’s a lot less romanticized.

It goes without saying that people are probably looked down upon if they go to a brothel, lower class more so probably.

Does the Guild have Buggery (Sodomy) laws, Gross Indecency statures or the like? This is far from a “commercial” interest, but when you think about it Buggery Laws has been enforced in basically all western societies until recent modernity. Is it a matter treated with discretion, judgement or is it simply ignored?

 

My vote is ignored. Malifaux is essentially a prison colony in most areas and there are bigger fish to fry, such as Neverborn and Rezzers.

 

Does racism exist within the Guild? Of course, racism exists everywhere, but is it especially so within the guild? I’ve only ever seen Caucasian guild-members (save for Lucius, but he doesn’t really count, does he?) – would it be far-fetched to assume that the Guild harbors the same “White Man’s Burden”-ideas and thinly-veiled supremacist thoughts that were common in Victorian times? Or, once again, does commercial interest completely trump cultural disposition (if there s any)?

Most of who the Guild hire seems based on ability rather than race or gender. But that is just extrapolating. For instance a Witch Hunter is very impressed with Ironsides in one story.

I would be more interested to know if sexism is still there. Many stories show that the Guild has deep regard for Lady J, Sonnia, and Perdita. However, there is a lot of talk of Perdita and Lady J being poster children for the various departments. Think of them as the equivalent of Rosie the Riveter as far as the Guild Officials might be concerned.

As far as race goes the 3 Kingdom immigrants seem to be second class citizens to most of the normal residents. Most being associated with the Ten Thunders a criminal organization by the Guild’s standards.

Perdita's family is regulated to their own territory and do not appear to have official titles except for Frank(Mayor).

The only two characters of African descent are Ironsides and Marcus. Ironsides being a brawler and Marcus an ex-professor I believe. The first African American Professor in a predominantly white college was in the mid-1800's so Marcus wouldn't be much of trailblazer.

As far as Native Americans they are represented by Austringers on the table top currently. And they seem to be highly respected as far as Guild Guardsman go, but probably wouldn't hold any rank higher than such.

Speaking of, Gremlins are technically natives of Malifaux, but are treated as vermin for the most part.

 

Edited October 23, 2015 by Hagisman
Added exorcists and religion.

[Werner von Urslingen]

 

2. It is obvious that Malifaux is inspired by Victorian society to some extent, or at least the time period – with all the moral standards that implies. At the same time, it is also obvious that the Guild is a mercantile organization with primarily (if not solely) mercantile/monetary interests. Even if they are greedy Croesus-wannabes first and upholders of law and order a distant second – does the Guild nevertheless take an interest in the “furtherance of justice” and the “upholding of public morality”?

 There are Guild Officials that seek out justice, the original three masters are very much this. Seeking out the Necromancer, Demon, and Witches. You cannot be in charge if everyone thinks your organization only protects their self interests.

Does the Guild have Buggery (Sodomy) laws, Gross Indecency statures or the like? This is far from a “commercial” interest, but when you think about it Buggery Laws has been enforced in basically all western societies until recent modernity. Is it a matter treated with discretion, judgement or is it simply ignored?

My vote is ignored. Malifaux is essentially a prison colony in most areas and there are bigger fish to fry, such as Neverborn and Rezzers.

 

Does racism exist within the Guild? Of course, racism exists everywhere, but is it especially so within the guild? I’ve only ever seen Caucasian guild-members (save for Lucius, but he doesn’t really count, does he?) – would it be far-fetched to assume that the Guild harbors the same “White Man’s Burden”-ideas and thinly-veiled supremacist thoughts that were common in Victorian times? Or, once again, does commercial interest completely trump cultural disposition (if there s any)?

[...]

As far as Native Americans they are represented by Austringers on the table top currently. And they seem to be highly respected as far as Guild Guardsman go, but probably wouldn't hold any rank higher than such.

 

Yay, an answer! Compelling points, too. Now I feel obligated to be a contrarian, just to keep things going. 

Frontier Law, eh? Seems very reasonable. I like that idea.

Good point about the Witch Hunters, Death Marshals etc. But, lets take Ressurectionists as an example - is the prosecution of them motivated by what is right or what is prudent? Perhaps both? If the former, why would the raisning of corpses be especially wrong, unless there's some sort of moral (see: religious) values at play? 

Concerning the example with buggery-laws, there has been regimes (historically, at least) that has been far worse of and/or more unstable, but still managed to devote considerable judicial muscle towards the prosecution of marginalized groups - not necessarily alternative sexuality (although that certainly seems to have topped the to-do list for many), but you get the idea. However, lets stipulate that the Guild as an organization isn't interested in the matter - do you think it might be widespread amongst the populace and/or officials at large? I've seen no mentioning of it in the fluff - however, game-developers seldom touch upon those subjects (perhaps for understandable reasons). I hope Wyrd will bring up those sort of things more in the background-texts. The writing has improved as time has gone, so I see no reason why they shouldn't/couldn't. 

It's interesting that you brought up the Austringers - they are the only Guardsman-unit that can't (for example) take Orders from Dashel (if I'm not mistaken). I think there's a few guardsmen-related rules that specifically excludes Austringers. Maybe that's a indication about how they are viewed by their colleagues? (Or maybe it's just a balance-issue. Still, it's fun to speculate). 

 

Thüss

/Werner

Edited October 23, 2015 by Werner von Urslingen

[Myyrä]

Yay, an answer! Compelling points, too. Now I feel obligated to be a contrarian, just to keep things going. 

Frontier Law, eh? Seems very reasonable. I like that idea.

Good point about the Witch Hunters, Death Marshals etc. But, lets take Ressurectionists as an example - is the prosecution of them motivated by what is right or what is prudent? Perhaps both? If the former, why would the raisning of corpses be especially wrong, unless there's some sort of moral (see: religious) values at play? 

Malifaux has been ruled by the governor general since the second opening of the breach. He hasn't really been answering to anyone as long as soulstone shipments have been running. He would best be described as the kind of man who has whose only interest is consolidating his own power and furthering his own agenda. If resources are being directed to combating the resser threat that is either because it's prudent to prevent them becoming a threat or it is prudent to keep up appearances about guild having the people's best interest at heart and possibly even being morally righteous. Whatever the reason, it's likely not based on any higher ideology.

Concerning the example with buggery-laws, there has been regimes (historically, at least) that has been far worse of and/or more unstable, but still managed to devote considerable judicial muscle towards the prosecution of marginalized groups - not necessarily alternative sexuality (although that certainly seems to have topped the to-do list for many), but you get the idea. However, lets stipulate that the Guild as an organization isn't interested in the matter - do you think it might be widespread amongst the populace and/or officials at large? I've seen no mentioning of it in the fluff - however, game-developers seldom touch upon those subjects (perhaps for understandable reasons). I hope Wyrd will bring up those sort of things more in the background-texts. The writing has improved as time has gone, so I see no reason why they shouldn't/couldn't. 

You obviously haven't seen the soapbox thread. Some people were pretty upset that Malifaux miniatures featured more men than women, and some other people disagreed with them, and it all got pretty messy. To avoid another shitstorm worse than that one, I seriously doubt Wyrd is going to introduce any kind of systematic oppression of minorities in the fluff any time soon. I also don't really see what point that would serve.

It's interesting that you brought up the Austringers - they are the only Guardsman-unit that can't (for example) take Orders from Dashel (if I'm not mistaken). I think there's a few guardsmen-related rules that specifically excludes Austringers. Maybe that's a indication about how they are viewed by their colleagues? (Or maybe it's just a balance-issue. Still, it's fun to speculate). 

I'm fairly sure that is purely for balance purposes.

[zeeblee]

In the case of necromancy, the Through the Breach fluff (core almanacs) reference how historically necromancers attacked Malifaux and its citizens. After that it would make sense for the practice to be outlawed and practitioners labeled as criminals and outcasts. 1) it's easier to keep people safe, and 2) it's easier to arrest innocents when you can label them as something which is universally hated.

[solkan]

 I've seen no mentioning of it in the fluff - however, game-developers seldom touch upon those subjects (perhaps for understandable reasons). I hope Wyrd will bring up those sort of things more in the background-texts. The writing has improved as time has gone, so I see no reason why they shouldn't/couldn't. 

"I see no reason why the shouldn't/couldn't" seems perhaps two faced given your remark the very previous sentence.   

In any event, I think you missed and are looking for material from the Through the Breach books. 

[EnternalVoid]

I would have to dig up my books and pick through them to get the actual points but some of it has not been completely clear.  For example, we know that the Guild is some sort of organization with far reaching power that came into power after the Blackpowder Wars.  They existed before that but they used the War to their own benefit and garnered a lot of political power through controlling things from behind closed doors.  Their control over the Soulstones made it so that a lot depending on them, the Earth in Malifaux ended up relying to much on soulstones as one of their primary fuels.  Think about what would happen if our own oil reserves suddenly got cut out from under us, it would not take very long for us to be on fumes.

So the Guild set itself up as a legal organization that claimed all rights to monitor and regulate soulstone usage.  Think of an organization that the major government powers have agreed and endorsed to serve and regulate these functions.  Plus given the rights to enforce them.  This has given it a very powerful hold.  More so when some of the fluff suggests they aided those they favored to power or were secretly in the employment of the Guild.  I imagine from some of the stuff the Governor General said to Perdita in the latest book that the law system of Malifaux is built on two fundimentals; first that the guild constructed the whole thing in a reflection of the laws they deemed appropriate, and second what the Governor General forced through based on the need to control Malifaux.  The early time in the second coming of the Breach were quite harsh from what he said and a lot of early decisions were based on survival and to insure control over a harsh and hostile land.  It was half military law and half what ever he deemed to insure he did not fail at his task.  Earth turns a blind eye to much of the lesser horrors of Malifaux as their is a lack of belief and lack of concern as long as the soulstone flow is maintained.  The governments of Earth basically give the Guild free reign because they need the production and the Guild has such a strong political clout as it is.

Because the Guild does realize controlling Malifaux is a difficult task it seems to have adopted rules and regulations that reflect their needs rather than that of the people.  Their argument of course would be that maintaining their position and control is for the best of the people.  They care less about thinks like prostitution, sweat factories, and Child labor.  Their biggest concerns is anything that directly affects their efforts with the soulstones or their control over Malifaux.  So they enforce regulations on productions, distributing, illegal holding, and aggression against the state *IE Guild*.  Its laws from my guess is a mess of laws you would expect associated with colonialism, expansionism, and occupation forces.  Largely, put "What we say is LAW".  Their legal seems is also messy as it is largely controlled by the state and their is no real division of power, it seems designed so it can always be spun to their benefit.  Most of those associated with the legal system are Guild employees.  Is it fair?  Heck no, it is a travisty of law, but no one can argue as they stand on top of the whole thing Breachside.

As for Racism, I imagine it does exist in the Guild.  But I imagine it is more up to individual's opinions rather than the organization as a whole.  From the sounds of it the Guild's originals was a large collection of radically different people.  With time I imagine certain sides dominated the other in numbers and sway but they seem to care more about the tools they can use then where they come from.  They seem to have no problem picking people of various background for the tasks they need.  It is either about who the person knows or what the person can do that gets them sway in the Guild.  I imagine part of why the Guild seems to be primarily of "Caucasian" Decent is a lot of the troops seem to be initially former soldiers/mercenaries/and the like from Earthside many conflicts.  Also the Breach seems to be in North America *some think Europe* in either case the population that seems to have the most direct access is of similar decent.  There is less reason to pull people from another continent when you can use the ones closer to home.

Now Three Kingdoms gets a special note as it seems to still be a powder keg Earthside.  The latest book painted that the Three Kingdom is quite the hotbed of hate for the Guild and its "Order".  Some of it is deserved, some of it is the 10T drumming up discontent in the population for their own ends.  So I imagine right now the Guild has a special amount of dislike for that region and its people.  More so when by now the Guild knows that an abnormal number of these people have shown up Breachside.  I suspect that some portion of the Guild *Lucius* is quite aware of the 10T's existence and its goals in Malifaux.

As for magic and Necromancy, these things are things that can easily go out of control.  They give a person power outside of certain controls and status.  Thus their laws concerning magic are very tight and unfair.  Broken down to its base it is basically "Any uses of magic outside of our ranks or approval is illegal".  Of course status might get you a bit of leeway but it is something they very much want control over if all possible.  Necromancy is even worse as it seems to be very corrupting and different from other forms of magic.  Several times in Malifaux's history Necromancers have risen up and created huge conflicts where on individual basically got the power of an army.  More so there seems to be some sort of extra-dimensional force behind necromancy that fuels it.  If Necromancy was merely a discpline of magic, had no affect on ones mind or personality, and did not have another driving force behind it, ya I could see the Guild using it to a degree.  But clearly Necromancy is a cancer to society in Malifaux, one that warps those that use it, and worse seems to have said force select people that seem to suddenly learn it.

As for Austringers, it is all game balance issues.  Purely.  All those rules originally included Austringers in the Betas but were worked in when those abilities were deemed to good in conjuction with them.

[tmod]

First thing that needs to take into account is that the Breach was created when Sorcerer/Wizards used magic to open up a portal to save magic.(TL:DR version).

The fallout from this could have caused a lot of things to change. Especially consider the religious presence inside Malifaux. There are no churches as far as the backstories I have read, no religious clergymen. The only thing close are graveyards which appear to be run by shady individuals such as Nicodem. In fact the only religous models are the Exorcists, who the Guild just sort of allow to operate.

This isn't to say that there are not religious people, just that religious institutions do not seem to be present.

   1. From what I can understand, while effectively a superpower, the Guild is not a Nation State or a political entity per se – much like, say, the British East India Company or Hanseatic League. Therefore, one have to ask the question if the Guild has its own Criminal Code, Obscenity laws etc. or whether it’s simply applying British Common Law (assuming the Guild is British)

 From how the lore treats the Guild it can be assumed that they are backed by some Nation. This is left up to ambiguity, however a key thing to know is that the Guild has a Governor-General. The state of Malifaux City is similar to how the Caribbean seems in tales of the Golden Age of Pirating. Of which while the law of the land was supposedly their homeland, but as a "frontier" the laws were not always enforced. In particular look to the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and old westerns.

2. It is obvious that Malifaux is inspired by Victorian society to some extent, or at least the time period – with all the moral standards that implies. At the same time, it is also obvious that the Guild is a mercantile organization with primarily (if not solely) mercantile/monetary interests. Even if they are greedy Croesus-wannabes first and upholders of law and order a distant second – does the Guild nevertheless take an interest in the “furtherance of justice” and the “upholding of public morality”?

 There are Guild Officials that seek out justice, the original three masters are very much this. Seeking out the Necromancer, Demon, and Witches. You cannot be in charge if everyone thinks your organization only protects their self interests.

Does the Guild condone prostitution and/or procuring? Is it illegal, regulated, ignored, legal or perhaps even by the Guild itself? Are there Guild-owned brothels and nightclubs, or are these private enterprises? It is obvious that prostitution and nightlife exists in Malifaux, but what’s the Guild’s stance on it?

In many stories there are Guild Officials who have hired escorts or are caught at brothels. Rarely does it seem that the Guild actually owns said establishments, if they do it is only because a Guild Official owns it privately. These are apparently legal in the same way that it was in the frontier, it gets lonely working on a farm or mine and what better way to take you mind off of your sorry lot. It reminds me a lot of how Firefly treated the matter the upper classes do not care to ask who a beautiful woman is on your arm, but the lower classes it’s a lot less romanticized.

It goes without saying that people are probably looked down upon if they go to a brothel, lower class more so probably.

Does the Guild have Buggery (Sodomy) laws, Gross Indecency statures or the like? This is far from a “commercial” interest, but when you think about it Buggery Laws has been enforced in basically all western societies until recent modernity. Is it a matter treated with discretion, judgement or is it simply ignored?

 

My vote is ignored. Malifaux is essentially a prison colony in most areas and there are bigger fish to fry, such as Neverborn and Rezzers.

 

Does racism exist within the Guild? Of course, racism exists everywhere, but is it especially so within the guild? I’ve only ever seen Caucasian guild-members (save for Lucius, but he doesn’t really count, does he?) – would it be far-fetched to assume that the Guild harbors the same “White Man’s Burden”-ideas and thinly-veiled supremacist thoughts that were common in Victorian times? Or, once again, does commercial interest completely trump cultural disposition (if there s any)?

Most of who the Guild hire seems based on ability rather than race or gender. But that is just extrapolating. For instance a Witch Hunter is very impressed with Ironsides in one story.

I would be more interested to know if sexism is still there. Many stories show that the Guild has deep regard for Lady J, Sonnia, and Perdita. However, there is a lot of talk of Perdita and Lady J being poster children for the various departments. Think of them as the equivalent of Rosie the Riveter as far as the Guild Officials might be concerned.

As far as race goes the 3 Kingdom immigrants seem to be second class citizens to most of the normal residents. Most being associated with the Ten Thunders a criminal organization by the Guild’s standards.

Perdita's family is regulated to their own territory and do not appear to have official titles except for Frank(Mayor).

The only two characters of African descent are Ironsides and Marcus. Ironsides being a brawler and Marcus an ex-professor I believe. The first African American Professor in a predominantly white college was in the mid-1800's so Marcus wouldn't be much of trailblazer.

As far as Native Americans they are represented by Austringers on the table top currently. And they seem to be highly respected as far as Guild Guardsman go, but probably wouldn't hold any rank higher than such.

Speaking of, Gremlins are technically natives of Malifaux, but are treated as vermin for the most part.

 

Two minor points:

Fracisco is not a mayor, the card refers to him being the eldest of his siblings (el mayor means the biggest in Spanish).

Joss is also Native American. He was called Injun Joss in M1e...

[Adran]

I would also add that the Metal Austringer models were caucasian cowboys. And during the beta testing, this were the pnly images we had, so I really wouldn't read anything racial into those rules

[Werner von Urslingen]

Concerning the example with buggery-laws, there has been regimes (historically, at least) that has been far worse of and/or more unstable, but still managed to devote considerable judicial muscle towards the prosecution of marginalized groups - not necessarily alternative sexuality (although that certainly seems to have topped the to-do list for many), but you get the idea. However, lets stipulate that the Guild as an organization isn't interested in the matter - do you think it might be widespread amongst the populace and/or officials at large? I've seen no mentioning of it in the fluff - however, game-developers seldom touch upon those subjects (perhaps for understandable reasons). I hope Wyrd will bring up those sort of things more in the background-texts. The writing has improved as time has gone, so I see no reason why they shouldn't/couldn't. 

You obviously haven't seen the soapbox thread. Some people were pretty upset that Malifaux miniatures featured more men than women, and some other people disagreed with them, and it all got pretty messy. To avoid another shitstorm worse than that one, I seriously doubt Wyrd is going to introduce any kind of systematic oppression of minorities in the fluff any time soon. I also don't really see what point that would serve.

Oh, I'm not trying to read chauvinism or something of the like into Wyrd's design-decisions. However, if anything, I think disregarding such topics in the backstory isn't doing the narrative any service - on the contrary.

I don't see how depicting discrimination could be construed in a categorically negative way. On the contrary, that just shows that you are aware of it and chooses to incorporate it in the story. In this day and age, not aknowledging such issues are just as much a statement as the opposite (Take the criticism leveled against "Generation War", for example). In my mind, a setting in which these issues aren't depicted at all makes them seem less real - being jerks to one another because of perceived or actual differences in way of life and/or origin is a pretty human trait, after all. 

Take Warhammer 40,000, for example. We have an empire described as the most tyrannical, fundamentalist, backwards, oppressive state in history (and is basically the Medieval Inquisition with lasers) - but for some odd reason they seem very liberal when it comes to things like gender, sexuality etc. (conveniently  those issues that exist today) since these subjects are never touched upon? That completely wrecks the immersion for me.

That's why I think it's fun to speculate about these things, to "fill in the gaps" so to speak. I think the Malifaux backstory have much to gain from exploring these subjects. It would make for a both darker and more complex setting. I understand the kneejerk "don't-get-politics-in-my-miniature-game"-reaction some get, but it's less about politics and more about good writing. It's not a zero-sum game - that's the beautiful thing - you can have a deep, enthralling backstory and still have a kick-ass miniature-game. 

Besides, if gender-discrimination was a thing, that would make Perdita, Tara and all the other female characters that much more badass. Going up against Neverborn and societal prejudice and still coming out on top is pretty hardcore. 

 

But, lets say the Guild is as uncaring about social issues as you speculate - is this also the case Earthside? Is perhaps Malifaux one of the few places where Old Earth-values are discarded in favor of the bottom-line, one (of many) reasons it has a steady influx of immigrants, settlers and the like? That's actually a neat idea (even if I like the oppressive-Victorian-regime idea better).

This thread is getting my creative juices flowing - gotta get back to that fanfic. 

 

Tchüss

/Werner

[valhallan42nd]

Regarding the raising of the dead being wrong requiring religious values... I don't think a formal, organized religious belief is required to abhor the idea of grave robbing and the use of corpses as soldiers or labor. It's not like a human corpse is a simple object, devoid of meaning. It's a symbol. Even as an atheist, I recognize that humanity uses symbols and ceremonies to venerate the lives of those who have passed on, and they are important social rituals. We believe the dead are to be left alone. For real world analogs that break that taboo, look to the enduring fascination with the 1972 Soccer Player Crash in the Andes; cannibalism is so horrible that we cannot help but shun the practitioners even as we acknowledge the necessity of the practice for their survival. We can also look to the horror that people expressed at medical examinations of the dead during the Victorian era.

Ressurectionists break that taboo into a thousand pieces, and make the dead into their puppets. I don't think that anyone -outside of the insane- could accept that except under the direst of circumstances.

[Myyrä]

I would totally love to discuss whether including discrimination of homosexuals in Malifaux backstory is a good idea or not, or the sanctity of human remains, but I'm afraid that would end up somewhere quite far far away from the original topic and attract unwanted moderator attention.

I'll just say that Earthside is situated in a fictional world that contains magic and monsters. Even though that world bears some resemblance to our world it is far from identical. It is even possible that religion does not exist at all. In a world where magic has always been present people might not have felt the need to explain the unexplainable with gods when they could just explain it with magic. It is possible that the values of people in the Earthside could be quite different from those of early 20th century in the real world.

Very little is known to us about Earthside. It has been mentioned only in passing in the Malifaux backstory. We don't even really know what countries exist in that world apart from Three Kingdoms so it is really quite difficult to speculate on the legal systems that are used. I don't see us getting much more information about it until Wyrd publishes that other miniature game or someone starts writing books that take place in the Malifaux universe. (Those would be totally awesome btw.)

[Poko]

but for some odd reason they seem very liberal when it comes to things like gender, sexuality etc. (conveniently  those issues that exist today) since these subjects are never touched upon?

That's because the game is set in far future, and the reason why the empire is tyrannical, is because it's the best way to keep humans from f..ing with the reality itself and summoning unspeakable evils all the time. Gender, skin colour and the like are irrelevant to that. Simply put- as long as you praise the emprah and do your job loyally, and aren't a mutant, they don't care, because they have no reason to care. 

[Hagisman]

I would also add that the Metal Austringer models were caucasian cowboys. And during the beta testing, this were the pnly images we had, so I really wouldn't read anything racial into those rules

Yeah, I probably should have said the Guild do have native american Austringers. I forgot about the metal sculpts.

Also I forgot Joss completely as well as Big Jake.

[ArcticPangolin]

It is even possible that religion does not exist at all. In a world where magic has always been present people might not have felt the need to explain the unexplainable with gods when they could just explain it with magic. It is possible that the values of people in the Earthside could be quite different from those of early 20th century in the real world.

I can't quite remember the Exorcist's entry in Crossroads, but I think it all but confirms religion exists Earthside. It is about the only thing I've seen that does though.

Does it leave any wiggle room?

[Myyrä]

It is even possible that religion does not exist at all. In a world where magic has always been present people might not have felt the need to explain the unexplainable with gods when they could just explain it with magic. It is possible that the values of people in the Earthside could be quite different from those of early 20th century in the real world.

I can't quite remember the Exorcist's entry in Crossroads, but I think it all but confirms religion exists Earthside. It is about the only thing I've seen that does though.

Does it leave any wiggle room?

It does actually hint pretty strongly towards the existence of some organized religion. It could still be unlike any religion found in our world. Not that I would be at all surprised to find out that all the major religions are the same as in our world. I would just find it quite refreshing if they weren't.