Charging onto buildings while ignoring terrain

[benjoewoo]

Let's say Misaki is charging a model on top of a building that's 3" tall, and the model is Ht 2 while exactly 3" away from the edges that would give LoS to Misaki. The model is 11" away from Misaki, factoring in the building height of 3". So, Misaki is 5" away from the building itself, and has to overcome the 3" of the building and 3" of distance of the charged model from the closest building edge.

Misaki ignores LoS, terrain, and engagement status for charge purposes. Her charge range is 8, and her melee range is 3". Can she make the charge and reach the model successfully?

[santaclaws01]

The short answer is no, because Misaki only has Rg 2 attacks, meaning a model that is 11" away will be out of range. Additionally there would be no LoS, because the Ht 2 model is too far away from the edge of the terrain per Vantage Point rules(pg 41) Edit: Just saw your second post. My first point still stands.

Long answer is still no, assuming we moved her or her target 1" closer to the edge, so that the model isn't outside Misaki's max charge range to begin with. While it's true Misaki ignores terrain while charging, that doesn't apply when you actively want to not ignore terrain, which in this case would be trying to land on the terrain(see FAQ #8 & pg 42 of the rulebook). With her Cg being 8, she would be able to move the 6" up to the terrain, and only 2" left over to try and both scale the terrain and end her movement on it, which is not possible as the terrain is 3" tall. 


 

Edited September 22, 2015 by santaclaws01
1: adjusted to fit the new scenario. 2: missed something from previous edit

[solkan]

The short answer is no, because Misaki only has Rg 2 attacks, meaning a model that is 11" away will be out of range. Additionally there would be no LoS, because the Ht 2 model is too far away from the edge of the terrain per Vantage Point rules(pg 41) Edit: Just saw your second post. My first point still stands.

Long answer is still no, assuming we moved her or her target 1" closer to the edge, so that the model isn't outside Misaki's max charge range to begin with. While it's true Misaki ignores terrain while charging, that doesn't apply when you actively want to not ignore terrain, which in this case would be trying to land on the terrain(see FAQ #8 & pg 42 of the rulebook). With her Cg being 8, she would be able to move the 6" up to the terrain, and only 2" left over to try and both scale the terrain and end her movement on it, which is not possible as the terrain is 3" tall. 


 

I guess I should ask this now--can models take attack or tactical actions while in process of climbing a wall, provided the climbing model's melee range would "reach" even factoring in both vertical and horizontal distance? Based on the quoted section, answer seems no.

See the FAQ:

44) Q: Can a model end its move halfway up a Climbable surface? Is it possible for the model to end its move suspended in mid-air if the base does not fit on the terrain, and the terrain has the Climbable trait?

A: Technically, yes. However, players define their own terrain before the game. It is likely best to only define things as “Climbable” which are actually Climbable (i.e. stairs, ladders, steep hills, etc). If you choose to define a sheer, vertical cliff as Climbable you can have the odd situation of a model suspended in mid-air, but this is no different than defining a solid, 6” tall rock as Severe terrain and then having difficulty in balancing your models on it; it likely should have just been defined as impassable, be careful how you define terrain.

Doesn't say anything about models being rendered helpless by that, neither do the rules for climbable terrain.

If your model climbs half way up a climbable surface and stays there, it stays there and that's where it's going to interact with the game from.

 

Edited September 24, 2015 by solkan

[BigHammer]

In addition to santaclaws01's post, Misaki does not ignore LoS when charging (unless she's got the Outcast upgrade Scout the Field and decides to discard it for the charge).

Diving charge allows her to ascend at a 1-to-1 ratio, as opposed to potentially not being able to ascend at all, but, like models with Flight and/or Incorporeal, she still has to pay the movement to go upwards. If she wants to land on top of a higher piece of terrain, she has to deduct the difference between its height and the height of her starting position) from her charge range. She can't end a charge partially up, for example, a wall, so it's all or nothing. She would require a charge value of 10 to be able to end a charge on top of a height 3 building from 6" away on the ground (6" to the building, 3" up and at least part of the last 1" to move onto the building).

If she's jumping over something (without her final position's height being different from her starting position's height), though, she doesn't need to take its height into account, as long as she has line of sight to her original target (in the same way as flying models, again).

[santaclaws01]

In addition to santaclaws01's post, Misaki does not ignore LoS when charging (unless she's got the Outcast upgrade Scout the Field and decides to discard it for the charge).

Diving charge allows her to ascend at a 1-to-1 ratio, as opposed to potentially not being able to ascend at all, but, like models with Flight and/or Incorporeal, she still has to pay the movement to go upwards. If she wants to land on top of a higher piece of terrain, she has to deduct the difference between its height and the height of her starting position) from her charge range. She can't end a charge partially up, for example, a wall, so it's all or nothing. She would require a charge value of 10 to be able to end a charge on top of a height 3 building from 6" away on the ground (6" to the building, 3" up and at least part of the last 1" to move onto the building).

If she's jumping over something (without her final position's height being different from her starting position's height), though, she doesn't need to take its height into account, as long as she has line of sight to her original target (in the same way as flying models, again).

Hold the phone, she can "jump over" anything?

So say she's standing on the outside of a wall and a portcullis.  So she can generally see though the door, but it's completely barred off, and a wall between her and her potential target.

Positioning her target on the other side of that gate would, by your presented argument, mean she can leap any distance vertically as long as she ends at the same height, allowing her to make the first charge at a full 8" of movement, and 2" Rg.  Target charged.

But by the same logic, she would never be able to jump and LAND on that same wall we would be willing to allow her to jump COMPLETELY OVER?

I mean, I see there needing to be rules and logic and all, but that seems a bit absurd.  And I guess you could call this a corner case, but at the same time, if I simply followed the way you outlined the ability here, it would be fully legal for me to do that first charge over a full 2" thick 5" tall wall, as long as I can see through it (Sometimes even without seeing through it, as someone mentioned the Scout the Field upgrade with Outcast-Misaki).

The whole Height issue seems like something that could stand to see a bit cleaner rulings.  Considering we measure distances without absolute Cardinal directions (IE 2" is 2" any direction, not just north/east/west/south), why is measuring diagonal for vertical movement such an anathema to us?

She may ignore terrain. This has a clear definition, if there is terrain in the path between her and her target she may ignore it. If you are trying to move on top of the terrain then you are not ignoring it, and thus have to account for it's height. As for your question about why we don't measure diagonally, it's because we don't. If you want more than that go talk to Wyrd. 

[benjoewoo]

Assume two changes to the scenario.

Misaki has LoS to the model which is now within 2" of the building edge, and Misaki is 6" from the building instead.

[Tawg]

In addition to santaclaws01's post, Misaki does not ignore LoS when charging (unless she's got the Outcast upgrade Scout the Field and decides to discard it for the charge).

Diving charge allows her to ascend at a 1-to-1 ratio, as opposed to potentially not being able to ascend at all, but, like models with Flight and/or Incorporeal, she still has to pay the movement to go upwards. If she wants to land on top of a higher piece of terrain, she has to deduct the difference between its height and the height of her starting position) from her charge range. She can't end a charge partially up, for example, a wall, so it's all or nothing. She would require a charge value of 10 to be able to end a charge on top of a height 3 building from 6" away on the ground (6" to the building, 3" up and at least part of the last 1" to move onto the building).

If she's jumping over something (without her final position's height being different from her starting position's height), though, she doesn't need to take its height into account, as long as she has line of sight to her original target (in the same way as flying models, again).

Hold the phone, she can "jump over" anything?

So say she's standing on the outside of a wall and a portcullis.  So she can generally see though the door, but it's completely barred off, and a wall between her and her potential target.

Positioning her target on the other side of that gate would, by your presented argument, mean she can leap any distance vertically as long as she ends at the same height, allowing her to make the first charge at a full 8" of movement, and 2" Rg.  Target charged.

But by the same logic, she would never be able to jump and LAND on that same wall we would be willing to allow her to jump COMPLETELY OVER?

I mean, I see there needing to be rules and logic and all, but that seems a bit absurd.  And I guess you could call this a corner case, but at the same time, if I simply followed the way you outlined the ability here, it would be fully legal for me to do that first charge over a full 2" thick 5" tall wall, as long as I can see through it (Sometimes even without seeing through it, as someone mentioned the Scout the Field upgrade with Outcast-Misaki).

The whole Height issue seems like something that could stand to see a bit cleaner rulings.  Considering we measure distances without absolute Cardinal directions (IE 2" is 2" any direction, not just north/east/west/south), why is measuring diagonal for vertical movement such an anathema to us?

[Dassenkop]

Is Q8 in the latest FAQ not confirming this? The Q is about flight but would this not equally apply in this case, i.e. about taking the height difference into account while landing on higher terrain?

Same would apply while moving to lower terrain I assume.

[Clousseau]

It's a quirk of the rules that it's only the relative difference in height (level) between start and finish points that matter with flight, not any interfering terrain height. 

To mess with this use an indoor board so Mistake hits her head on the ceiling!

[Tawg]

It's a quirk of the rules that it's only the relative difference in height (level) between start and finish points that matter with flight, not any interfering terrain height. 

To mess with this use an indoor board so Mistake hits her head on the ceiling!

Yeah, I was looking at it a bit, and "Enclosed" is the only thing that messes with it.

 

Is Q8 in the latest FAQ not confirming this? The Q is about flight but would this not equally apply in this case, i.e. about taking the height difference into account while landing on higher terrain?

Same would apply while moving to lower terrain I assume.

Although #8 (of General Abilities) is about Incorporeal rather than flying.  But it discusses the "Ignore" vs "free" distances issue.

[solkan]

 

Is Q8 in the latest FAQ not confirming this? The Q is about flight but would this not equally apply in this case, i.e. about taking the height difference into account while landing on higher terrain?

Same would apply while moving to lower terrain I assume.

Although #8 (of General Abilities) is about Incorporeal rather than flying.  But it discusses the "Ignore" vs "free" distances issue.

Huh?  The question asks about both Incorporeal and Flight:

8) Q: A model with the Incorporeal Ability ignores terrain when it moves. If it is on the ground floor of a building which is 10” tall, can it end its move on top of the building, even if its Wk stat is less than 10, since it ignores the building while moving? Same question for a model with Flight in regards to vertical terrain.

and the answer addresses both Incorporeal and Flight, since the answer ends with:

Flight works similarly, except in the case of Enclosed terrain (see Enclosed terrain, rulebook pg. 60).

[benjoewoo]

The short answer is no, because Misaki only has Rg 2 attacks, meaning a model that is 11" away will be out of range. Additionally there would be no LoS, because the Ht 2 model is too far away from the edge of the terrain per Vantage Point rules(pg 41) Edit: Just saw your second post. My first point still stands.

Long answer is still no, assuming we moved her or her target 1" closer to the edge, so that the model isn't outside Misaki's max charge range to begin with. While it's true Misaki ignores terrain while charging, that doesn't apply when you actively want to not ignore terrain, which in this case would be trying to land on the terrain(see FAQ #8 & pg 42 of the rulebook). With her Cg being 8, she would be able to move the 6" up to the terrain, and only 2" left over to try and both scale the terrain and end her movement on it, which is not possible as the terrain is 3" tall. 


 

I guess I should ask this now--can models take attack or tactical actions while in process of climbing a wall, provided the climbing model's melee range would "reach" even factoring in both vertical and horizontal distance? Based on the quoted section, answer seems no.

[Fetid Strumpet]

There is nothing in the rules saying you can't. Climbing is just another sort of movement, following similar rules to walking, but of course slightly differently. If you can stop walking and make an attack you can stop climbing and make an attack unless the rules tell you that you can't, and they don't. RAW, if the terrain is climbable you can stop climbing at any point and hang onto the side of whatever you are climbing and still perform an action.

Now, that being said, the climbing rules are probably the most home ruled text in the game from my experience, with the possible exception on how to handle height 1 walls and such. And every group I know of has their own way of handling it, so it's probably best to clarify those rules if nothing else when going to a non local group or tournament.

[santaclaws01]

The short answer is no, because Misaki only has Rg 2 attacks, meaning a model that is 11" away will be out of range. Additionally there would be no LoS, because the Ht 2 model is too far away from the edge of the terrain per Vantage Point rules(pg 41) Edit: Just saw your second post. My first point still stands.

Long answer is still no, assuming we moved her or her target 1" closer to the edge, so that the model isn't outside Misaki's max charge range to begin with. While it's true Misaki ignores terrain while charging, that doesn't apply when you actively want to not ignore terrain, which in this case would be trying to land on the terrain(see FAQ #8 & pg 42 of the rulebook). With her Cg being 8, she would be able to move the 6" up to the terrain, and only 2" left over to try and both scale the terrain and end her movement on it, which is not possible as the terrain is 3" tall. 


 

I guess I should ask this now--can models take attack or tactical actions while in process of climbing a wall, provided the climbing model's melee range would "reach" even factoring in both vertical and horizontal distance? Based on the quoted section, answer seems no.

No. The side of a wall is not a legal location for a model to end it's movement.

[Paddywhack]

Not quite. See #44 on the FAQ. It depends on how players want to label it and play it. If you want that level of 'realism' and can agree on how to do it, then why not?

44) Q: Can a model end its move halfway up a Climbable surface? Is it possible for the model to end its move suspended in mid-air if the base does not fit on the terrain, and the terrain has the Climbable trait?

A. Technically, yes. However, players define their own terrain before the game. It is likely best to only define things as “Climbable” which are actually Climbable (i.e. stairs, ladders, steep hills, etc). If you choose to define a sheer, vertical cliff as Climbable you can have the odd situation of a model suspended in mid-air, but this is no different than defining a solid, 6” tall rock as Severe terrain and then having difficulty in balancing your models on it; it likely should have just been defined as impassable, be careful how you define terrain.