2 players starter, any use for me?

[Gabbi]

Hi, back to Malifaux after summer (my regular opponent took quite a long vacation ^^ ). I'm looking at the 2players box wondering if could be of any use to me.
Situation: got rid of puny Lady J and Marshalls (sorry Dirial ), actually have Rasputina and Lynch. Since the only two playing Malifaux friends are collecting Neverborn and Arcanists respectively, I was thinking on moving to ressers in the near future, while keeping what I have and eventually still getting spare stuff I like for these factions (Colette, Collodi, Dreamer). As for ressers, I would start with McMourning and/or Seamus, then Molly right after them. Not very fond of Nicodemus zombie horde.
With these assumptions, the 2players starter would be useful to me? i.e. do the Neverborn crew bring something useful to Lynch? Are the Guild dudes useful in any of the crews I own/plan to buy? They are all mercs, right? Their look is very McMourning-ish, but I plan to play the morgue master as resser only.

Side question: how many ss costs the two crews? Hardly believe they're full 35ss crews. I ask this because in case only one of them would be useful to me, I could still get the box and gift the one I have not use for to some friend to taint... ehm... invite him through the Breach.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Gabbi

[Dirial]

Both crews are 28 SS plus cache, I believe. Yes, they are all mercs. They don't add that much to the Ressers, though, that they cannot just as well on their own. The Neverborn models are rather independent, but do not synergize that well with Lynch... I don't think you get much of the starter pack except some cool models that you can play but will rarely want to from a competitive standpoint.

Also, boo for getting rid of Guild. 

[Gabbi]

Thanks for reply Dirial!

[santaclaws01]

Both crews are 28 SS plus cache, I believe. Yes, they are all mercs. They don't add that much to the Ressers, though, that they cannot just as well on their own. The Neverborn models are rather independent, but do not synergize that well with Lynch... I don't think you get much of the starter pack except some cool models that you can play but will rarely want to from a competitive standpoint.

Also, boo for getting rid of Guild. 

Angel eyes is good. Neverborn is lacking shooters, especially ones that don't randomize, and Black Blood Scion gets some condition removal which is always nice. They don't offer any inherent synergy but they're good enough to stand on their own.

[Clockwork Top Hat]

First of all congratulations for throwing of the shackles of the evil guild. Angel eyes looks good and I think could fit into quite a few lists including lynch. But I don't think any of the models offer enough from a synergy point of view to make it worth it.

[Gabbi]

Thanks for replies and further insight.
As mercenaries, none of them could be of any use with Rasputina or any of the Resurrectionists?

[Slapdrone]

I've been using Angel Eyes with Molly.  She can sit in the circle of black blood and won't randomize when shooting into a group Molly just summoned something into.  

[Dirial]

As said, they are rather independent. You can certainly slap them into a lot of lists. I don't see a lot of synergies but you won't lose much either. I'd still just get another faction model (or even crew) in your place.

[Math Mathonwy]

Thanks for replies and further insight.
As mercenaries, none of them could be of any use with Rasputina or any of the Resurrectionists?

Not really, no.

You could make a somewhat usable Guild force out of McM crew box and the Guild stuff from the starter but that is about the extent of it. And you said that you wouldn't use McM as Guild so that's that, then.

Using Angeleyes with Molly seems like it wouldn't be horrible but you really wouldn't be missing out by not doing it, either. There are lots of very good models in that SS range for Molly to use.

[Carcosa]

Shackles of the guild??

You have got to be kidding me, right? The shackles of sub-par, the shackles of other crews doing the same thing better.......

Don't get me wrong, guild has it's great stuff (Hoffman stuff), and even some of it is unique to the guild, but as for the rest...........

BAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

 

On Topic however,If you like Guild or Neverborn, I would certainly buy it. If/when it becomes available out here I will certainly be picking up a box. 

[Dirial]

Oy! I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever of the Guild being subpar.

[Carcosa]

Oy! I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever of the Guild being subpar.

Lucius command being restricted to minions, non Austringer minions.

Lucius Commanding presence (?) failure side effect being -paralyze-

Sonnia with less skills than Kearis

Lady J with less control than Lillith

The latigo posse being outgunned, and out AP'ed by gremlins.

McCabe being simply -better- in 10T

Lucius being simply -better- as NB

Doctor Doug being simply -better- in Resser than Guild.

 

Guild has some awesome models, (oh hey, most work with Hoffman, who I have said nothing about......) and they are my most bought faction and favourite faction, but to consider a lot of their stuff more than "alpha testing" for other factions special rules??

Come on man!

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Oy! I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever of the Guild being subpar.

Lucius command being restricted to minions, non Austringer minions.

Lucius Commanding presence (?) failure side effect being -paralyze-

Yeah, Lucius is pretty lackluster.

Sonnia with less skills than Kearis

I'm not sure what this means but Sonnia is crazy powerful.

Lady J with less control than Lillith

Huh? That's a very, very weird comparison to make. It's a bit like saying that Ophelia has less control than Lilith and therefore Gremlins suck.

The latigo posse being outgunned, and out AP'ed by gremlins.

Everything is outgunned and out AP'ed by Gremlins. Latigo Posse has other things they excel at. Heck, they even have a Wp stat  

McCabe being simply -better- in 10T

Huh?

Lucius being simply -better- as NB

Doctor Doug being simply -better- in Resser than Guild.

These I grant you.

Guild has some awesome models, (oh hey, most work with Hoffman, who I have said nothing about......) and they are my most bought faction and favourite faction, but to consider a lot of their stuff more than "alpha testing" for other factions special rules??

Come on man!

I don't think that the list you provided proves anything one way or the other. Even if everything on it was unquestionably true, it still wouldn't prove anything.

[asrian]

Oy! I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever of the Guild being subpar.

The only proof I have is in the representatives, Dirial...and now you have zFiend as well.

[Dirial]

Come on man!

I said evidence, not some claims without anything to back it up.

[Ludvig]

Whoa there Carcosa. 

I'll admit I do like to whine about Lucius but it's a bit much to just say the whole faction is the worst in the game. I seem to remember a fairly large event recently being won by Lady J?

I'd take Sonnia over Kaeris any day of the week! Less skills on the card maybe but look at Sonnia's stuff!

I can see where the Lady J vs Lilith thing comes from. LJ has one more dmg on her sword and 4 more wounds, Lilith has a lot of very powerful control opportunities which I think gives her an edge in a lot of games.

The McCabe thing I do not get at all. He has a couple of cool minions in TT but the Guild pain train with promises buffing all our brutal henchmen is a thing of beauty that I've never seen equalled in TT. In my eyes the TT has a lot of already fast models who get a little faster while the guild's slow dudes are simply amazing if given a nudge in the right direction.

This reminds me of a very long thread on the guild boards a while back... It will be really interesting to see some stats after Nythera. If any Wyrdos are listening in on this: Please make the stats public - like how many matches each faction won against each other! It would be really cool to have more info actually. Like people being able to voluntarily enter Master, SS level and Strat - would give a lot of data.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Ludvig

[Dirial]

I can see where the Lady J vs Lilith thing comes from. LJ has one more dmg on her sword and 4 more wounds, Lilith has a lot of very powerful control opportunities which I think gives her an edge in a lot of games.

Lady J has 1-3 damage more than Lilith, not 1, and a trigger for additional attacks on an upgrade. Lilith doesn't compare well to Justice if we look at damage. She also has a great Minion buff which doesn't even cost her AP, a lot of Wds more than Lilith, and a magnificent condition removal. Their playstyles are so different that I really don't like to make the comparison (I play my Justice more like Pandora than Lilith), as the only thing Lilith and Justice have in common is the greatsword.

[Ludvig]

I can see where the Lady J vs Lilith thing comes from. LJ has one more dmg on her sword and 4 more wounds, Lilith has a lot of very powerful control opportunities which I think gives her an edge in a lot of games.

Lady J has 1-3 damage more than Lilith, not 1, and a trigger for additional attacks on an upgrade. Lilith doesn't compare well to Justice if we look at damage. She also has a great Minion buff which doesn't even cost her AP, a lot of Wds more than Lilith, and a magnificent condition removal. Their playstyles are so different that I really don't like to make the comparison (I play my Justice more like Pandora than Lilith), as the only thing Lilith and Justice have in common is the greatsword.

It might be more of a question of our poor Lady being misunderstood and poorly used. Whoever won whatever tourney I was ranting about earlier was using Justice for most matches which has to mean something. 

[Carcosa]

Come on man!

I said evidence, not some claims without anything to back it up.

What would constitute evidence in your eyes Dirial?

[Dirial]

Come on man!

I said evidence, not some claims without anything to back it up.

What would constitute evidence in your eyes Dirial?

A number of play experiences by different players, playing with and against Guild on differing levels of experience... and then a comparison of the numbers showing that Guild have significantly higher chance of losing after accounting for chance. Just evidence.

[Carcosa]

 

A number of play experiences by different players, playing with and against Guild on differing levels of experience... and then a comparison of the numbers showing that Guild have significantly higher chance of losing after accounting for chance. Just evidence.

You may be waiting some time for any statistical evidence like that Dirial

 

[Dirial]

 

A number of play experiences by different players, playing with and against Guild on differing levels of experience... and then a comparison of the numbers showing that Guild have significantly higher chance of losing after accounting for chance. Just evidence.

You may be waiting some time for any statistical evidence like that Dirial

I think so too. That's why I don't like any claims that just assume things without backing them up.

[Gabbi]

I would not consider Lady-J subpar. Got rid of her cause don't like Guild fluff wise, but once I've learned she's no warcaster and if she dies I would not had lost any game (knew that from beginning, but one thing is knowing something, the other is feeling it, if you get what I mean), and so I've started playinh her very aggressively, I was amazed by the sheer damage she's able to output. She's a beast. One game she defeated Marcus' crew almost single-handedly, killing Cojo twice.

[Ludvig]

 

A number of play experiences by different players, playing with and against Guild on differing levels of experience... and then a comparison of the numbers showing that Guild have significantly higher chance of losing after accounting for chance. Just evidence.

You may be waiting some time for any statistical evidence like that Dirial

 

A few players around my parts keep a spreadsheet of their own games. The problem would be to compile all that data to make sure the same games aren't entered twice. Maybe if everyone paid their local henchman in beer to start keeping these sort of stats for entire groups we could get that data. In tournament play all the info should be there and maybe still exist long after, the trouble is finding someone with the time for it.

Then we have the trouble of different skill levels between players and number of available models that of course influence results...

Edited September 6, 2015 by Ludvig

[tmod]

 

A number of play experiences by different players, playing with and against Guild on differing levels of experience... and then a comparison of the numbers showing that Guild have significantly higher chance of losing after accounting for chance. Just evidence.

You may be waiting some time for any statistical evidence like that Dirial

 

Of course!

That's why people react negatively to a blanket statement like "Guild Sucks". If you'd stated something along the lines of "I can't make Guild work", or "I can't see how Guild can be competitive" you're in the clear. Sure, nobody can't argue about how you feel about a statement, presenting your feelings and opinions as objective fact will (and should) warrant requests for evidence backing it up. You make the claim, you need to prove it! (Or just play a faction you feel better about) :-)