All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

[Rathnard]

 

The Mods are sleeping,

 

No they're not.

 

Please don't make me delete stuff though. I've had a crazy enough day as is.

[Ferossa]

I made the joke because I wanted to see if anyone would refute the statement when a woman said it instead of a man.

 

I think you should think about why and how you responded.

 

(And I think the context from the quote made it pretty clear it was a joke between two women who have experienced sexual harassment.)

[SpectreEliteGaming]

No they're not.

Please don't make me delete stuff though. I've had a crazy enough day as is.

Proof that its okay to insult the male gender, then?

Wait. Uh oh... I think this is where I stop posting because I'm about to get ganged up on by all the nice people and warned about the content of my posts again.

*vanishes from thread, again... like I was never here*

[Dirial]

I made the joke because I wanted to see if anyone would refute the statement when a woman said it instead of a man.

 

I think you should think about why and how you responded.

 

I think I would have refuted the comment regardless of who said it... if I didn't think that further escalation of this particular discussion was unnecessary. So I think I would have commented the same way regardless:

 

Deep breaths, people...

 

The Mods are sleeping, true, but deleting everything 10 hrs back is a lot of work. Let's spare them.

 

Seriously, I disagree with a lot of people in here, but the fact that there is a discussion still ongoing without the need for name-calling and insults is a good thing, and I'd like to see it continue without the need of someone swinging that scary mod hammer around.

[zFiend]

You have plenty of men in the thread arguing that all men want to sexualise women. Your quarrel is with the men making your gender look bad, not with the woman mocking them.

 

I don't actually have a quarrel here with anyone. But I do have a slight issue with hypocrisy. See if a person claims that he/she gets mocked, talked down and not appreciated in the community and then proceeds to mock other people (deserve it or not) I find it kinda bad for their arguments and how seriously should such a person be taken. 

 

If you want your arguments and your issue to be heard, I find it extremely weird you lower yourself to the same level of mocking, name calling and generalization of stereotypes that you so much wish to eradicate. 

 

I think you should think about why and how you responded.

 

Now you can see above why I responded and to how I responded I don't feel I was out of line or rude or anything, correct me if I'm wrong and I shall edit my posts accordingly. 

[Ausplosions]

Justin mate, I implore you - don't change the Beta - it's one of the things I admire most about this game and community. It would be a real tragedy for it to go belly up because of a few complainy-pants.

 

 

The Open-Beta style testing has no place in future releases from Wyrd. It is good, yes. But it also fosters this idea in the community that we can just try and get everything changed whenever we dislike something. Already people think rules are up for change simply because in the past Wyrd took public opinion. 

 

Open betas are great for an edition change. Not for every release. I for one hope they don't happen again till M3E.

[Ausplosions]

I'm insulting the men who think a woman's breasts exist for their sexual satisfaction. Was that unclear?

 

Yes. 

 

It is a generalisation.

 

You can't argue for gender equality, and then state that men know less than babies in a blanket statement. 

 

It diminishes your argument. 

[Ausplosions]

I made the joke because I wanted to see if anyone would refute the statement when a woman said it instead of a man.

 

I think you should think about why and how you responded.

 

(And I think the context from the quote made it pretty clear it was a joke between two women who have experienced sexual harassment.)

 

 

I don't care what sort of genitalia you possess. 

 

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. 

 

 

"I was testing you" is a poor cover for making statements that are in complete opposition to your "Why cant we all be equal" stance. .

[Nathan Caroland]

Is it possible to get a statement by a Wyrd employee (Justin or Nathan - the rest of you mean nothing to me ) about your stance on nudity, in general? Is this something that will definitively not be explored anymore? Any reasoning behind your stance would be great, in addition.

I'm not looking for a dispute - I just want to know what to/not to expect. I'll even promise not to respond to the response, if need be. I've never really seen a definitive response to this before and I know that you guys have produced (partial) nude models in the past.

 

 

 

Depends on the model.

 

I have nothing against nudity in general, full or partial, but it isn't something that I think needs to be gratuitous as well. There are plenty of companies out there that do full on nude models, and they look, and sell very well, but in general I don't go out of my way to make a given model in such a way. 

There are of course exceptions such as the Doppelganger, but that one I enjoyed more for showing the changing of the flesh and the musculature than anything. Could it have been done a different way, yeah, very likely, but I also quite enjoyed the idea of the model itself in that manner and personally didn't find a thing about it 'sexualized' as I usually like my people non flayed.

[Bengt]

While the mammary gland is there to nourish babies, the prevailing view is that the surrounding bag of fat is a secondary sex characteristic that has evolved to attract mates. Of course we can't be absolutely sure why anything has evolved, just make educated guesses.

 

No other mammal has permanent breasts like humans do, though they all swell up while nursing to store milk (it can be hard to see in some species as they have relatively long fur).

[Dirial]

While the mammary gland is there to nourish babies, the prevailing view is that the surrounding bag of fat is a secondary sex characteristic that has evolved to attract mates. Of course we can't be absolutely sure why anything has evolved, just make educated guesses.

 

No other mammal has permanent breasts like humans do, though they all swell up while nursing to store milk (it can be hard to see in some species as they have relatively long fur).

 

This is my state of knowledge as well. It has something to do with upright walk, this theory claims. The usual sexual signal female mammals use to signal their availability is a risen rear, which is hard for humans to do. Thus, human females emulate the look of a risen rear, or so the theory goes.

 

The issue there being that it's no conscious choice, or even an instinctive one. Breasts just are. This theory might explain why human males are attracted to breasts (unique for a mammal as well, I think), but it doesn't give males the right to act on that attraction.

 

Our big evolutionary advantage is that we can use conscious choice to overwrite our instincts; to use that oversized brain to better the world around us. We have pretty much conquered this planet. Time to do something ethically worthwhile with that brain power, like enabling a human life in dignity for everyone.

[Ferossa]

I find it interesting that all the people complaining about the joke were quick to erase the context: a woman discussing sexual assault and reminding men that sexualising women without their consent is not okay.

 

I don't think separating the word "manbaby" into its component parts functionally changed the meaning, but I refuse to apologise for not speaking of men who enjoy violating women's sexual and bodily integrity in more glowing terms.

 

Why do you think it was acceptable to ignore the content of the post (speaking up, telling men how I want them to treat women), which was specifically directed at doing what you asked me to do earlier? I am also opposed to hypocrisy from men who want to keep their sexist jokes, but insist on shutting it down when a woman makes a joke at the expense of sexual predators.

[zFiend]

I find it interesting that all the people complaining about the joke were quick to erase the context: a woman discussing sexual assault and reminding men that sexualising women without their consent is not okay.

I don't think separating the word "manbaby" into its component parts functionally changed the meaning, but I refuse to apologise for not speaking of men who enjoy violating women's sexual and bodily integrity in more glowing terms.

Why do you think it was acceptable to ignore the content of the post (speaking up, telling men how I want them to treat women), which was specifically directed at doing what you asked me to do earlier? I am also opposed to hypocrisy from men who want to keep their sexist jokes, but insist on shutting it down when a woman makes a joke at the expense of sexual predators.

Omnislash of overreaction.

[Bengt]

but it doesn't give males the right to act on that attraction.

Oh I totally agree, there is no excuse for assaulting or abusing someone. But to say that the human breast has nothing to with sex is not accurate (as far as we know).

 

Our big evolutionary advantage is that we can use conscious choice to overwrite our instincts; to use that oversized brain to better the world around us. We have pretty much conquered this planet. Time to do something ethically worthwhile with that brain power, like enabling a human life in dignity for everyone.

I think humans spend much more brain power coming up with justifications for following their instincts than overriding them. So we have a long way to go there.

[Dirial]

 

Oh I totally agree, there is no excuse for assaulting or abusing someone. But to say that the human breast has nothing to with sex is not accurate (as far as we know).

 

I think humans spend much more brain power coming up with justifications for following their instincts than overriding them. So we have a long way to go there.

 

 

Amen.

[r4st4f4n]

I'm afraid of movements when they become sorta religious and close-minded.

Bengt & Dirial, thank you.

*chapeau*

[Dirial]

Bengt & Dirial, thank you.

*chapeau*

 

For what? Was anything I said religious or close minded? I don't get it.

[r4st4f4n]

For what? Was anything I said religious or close minded? I don't get it.

No irony intended. You two had a good open-minded discussion WITHOUT the quoted traits, and saved me the time of replying to the previous wrong interpretations of my post.

I appreciate!

[Nathan Caroland]

Alrighty folks, I'm going to say this just once and you can either listen and play nice, or you get get mod swatted. 

 

From this point forward, this is the last warning that will be given. Anyone, male, female, whatever in between, that decides to get personal or nasty, will suffer moderation, a warning as well as a temp ban. If you can't play well after that, a several month ban will be put on and taken from there. 

 

Y'all very clearly have distinct opinions, and are welcome to them. Not everyone is going to like the opinion, nor tone, of another - I can list in any given day a half handful of people I personally wouldn't mind jerking bald for what 'I' see as stupidity, but at the end of the day, the individual still walks away, hair intact. 

 

 

You are all welcome to play in the sandbox. Shit in it though, and you'll be asked to leave. 

[mythicFOX]

<MOD HAT>

 

Read what Nathan said above. 

 

That is all.

 

</MOD HAT>

[Nathan Caroland]

While I'm at it, I'm going to be completely open here and make a point. 

 

This thread was created in the full knowledge that it would derail within a day and become a cesspool that it has become between some individuals. Thread after thread has been derailed and hijacked by several individuals here of late and quite bluntly, I've gotten rather tired of it. We try to smile, we try to accommodate, and we most certainly want everyone to enjoy themselves, but after a bit, it does get tiring seeing some of the same stuff occur time after time, even when spoken to about it and asked in either polite or stern manners. 

 

That's not to say I don't see this thread as having a very real reason for existing. Sometimes folks just need to get out of their system and into the wide world and let their voices be heard because it's obviously something that one either feels strongly or passionately about, and I can respect that. That being said, there are also rules, this is a public forum, and at the end of the day, I would rather not have the forums turn into a cesspool of hate and anger. We've seen our share of that a time or two, and we've always had to mod heavily and police everything in order to get things back on track. We hate doing that, but it's necessary.

 

We have shown that we listen (may not always agree, but we most certainly listen) to your thoughts about this company and its product and for that passion that you feel, I thank you. It means we have done something right, we have created something that you feel is worth your time, creativity and energy to invest in, and I'm personally very proud of that. Just don't let that passion turn on the people in your own community that feel the same. 

 

Now I have watched, and participated of course, in the talks and debates here, and there are some very, very well spoken thoughts and critiques that I acknowledge as quite interesting and cause some talk in the office among ourselves. That being said, I have seen aggression, and more to the point, passive aggression, used time and time again and sadly, folks rise to the occasion and take the bait, thus starting the crap flinging again. I've put up with it to this point as this thread was going to bring out the worst in folks (and the best in some cases), but I want it very clear, that it will no longer be tolerated. From anyone. 

 

Thank you.

[paradoxstorm]

Can you name one box of three models that contains two women and one man? Does the answer to this question make you think?

Boxes with only women are for those models whose fluff casts them as exclusively female such as Oiran and Belles and such. The sole exception to this is the Ronin whose fluff doesn't define them all being necessarily women. But no other box of models includes "randomly" all women. And if a box includes a woman, it's always one woman and two men.

 

White men really, really don't have a problem of representation in media. They just don't have that problem so representation is generally less important to them.

 

Since I am only familiar with a fraction of the Malifaux models the fact that I have to think about it is rather uninformative.  The point is you have been arguing as if ALL the Pistoleros, and similar models, are men.  But they are not.  

 

Now it appears you are no longer happy that it is a mere one-in-three.   I am still unclear whether you want a perfect 50/50 gender representation, such as the Gunsmiths, or if you are looking for more Ronin like boxes with all women.  My point, and the point of another poster, is that women are more common in Malifaux than many are making out.  Not 50/50, but way better than the implied 20/80.  

 

Whatever the case, the gender mix of the non-master models is something that likely does not matter one tiny bit to the overall health of Malifaux.

 

If you find a large collection of nerdy/gamer type women who are abuse free I would predict that the gender representation of the non-Master models would be noticed by no more than 10% and would offend only half of those.  

 

The problem is not with the models, it is with any culture/group that treats the abuse of women as okay.  

 

It isn't skimpy outfits or long legs on models that are keeping women from Malifaux.  It isn't the fact that only 35% - 40% of the gendered models are women.  It is men who insist on behaving as assholes.  Where the assholes are absent, most women seem to be just fine with Malifaux.

 

If Malifaux models were 80% females dressed in burkas (sp?) the assholes would still be assholes.  That is the problem that needs to be addressed.  

[moxypoo]

Fury Road had real stunts instead of CGI....

 

I still stand my my earlier comment, but I didn't know this!  I'll definitely have to go see it now.  Thanks for enlightening me Dirial!

 

I have noticed this as well.

 

I think we may need to change up how the beta is done in the future.

 

Aw, this makes me sad.  I really enjoyed the playtesting and arguing on the forum, but I can understand how the format was frustrating for Justin and the other developers. As much as I'd like to participate in future playtesting, I'll be happy as long as new releases get extensively tested to ensure compatibility and similar power levels to older models.

 

I'm not at all sure this has anything to do with the way betas are handled. Practically all games I have come in contact with have people complaining about the balance and suggesting their own improvements. It doesn't even matter how well balanced the game already is. All it takes to start a thread like that is one player who has lost to a single opponent too many times. I believe there was a thread about Lady Justice being too powerful.

 

This is a trend that I've noticed too - I don't post on other forums, but I skim DakkaDakka from time to time.  You wouldn't believe the angst people have over the rules for GW games (for good reason!), and there's an entire sub-forum dedicated to fan made rules or alterations of the official rules. Besides that, in just about every game I've ever played there are a small number of things that either don't work the way they're intended to or are simply too good and negate some options.  Because of this,it seems most gamers like to alter the rules to their satisfaction.

 

While the mammary gland is there to nourish babies, the prevailing view is that the surrounding bag of fat is a secondary sex characteristic that has evolved to attract mates. Of course we can't be absolutely sure why anything has evolved, just make educated guesses.

 

No other mammal has permanent breasts like humans do, though they all swell up while nursing to store milk (it can be hard to see in some species as they have relatively long fur).

 

I was going to come in and drop some evolutionary biology knowledge on everyone, but Bengt beat me too it.  Good explanation!

[Dirial]

If you find a large collection of nerdy/gamer type women who are abuse free I would predict that the gender representation of the non-Master models would be noticed by no more than 10% and would offend only half of those.  

 

The problem is not with the models, it is with any culture/group that treats the abuse of women as okay.  

 

It isn't skimpy outfits or long legs on models that are keeping women from Malifaux.  It isn't the fact that only 35% - 40% of the gendered models are women.  It is men who insist on behaving as assholes.  Where the assholes are absent, most women seem to be just fine with Malifaux.

 

It is worth repeating, I gather, and it's Math's central point:

 

Of course Wyrd and especially their tiny toy soldiers are not directly to blame for any inappropriate behaviour by the despicable people who are out there. Just as you said, the problem is with any culture that treats the abuse of anyone as okay.

 

However, Wyrd is in the enviable position to shape the culture of gamers into a more inclusive on, thus doing a part in changing the culture into one we don't have said problem with. What we would like to see, is Wyrd using that position and making clear that they support the inclusion of women and any other group in their game and world.

 

We are not a single voice. For some of us, it's more important than for others, some want it to see happen faster, some are so invested that they would feel betrayed if it didn't happen. I don't speak for all of these; I just speak for me: I like Wyrd, I admire the steps they have taken into the direction laid out above, and I would like to see them continue in that direction.

[Math Mathonwy]

Since I am only familiar with a fraction of the Malifaux models the fact that I have to think about it is rather uninformative.

I sort of gave you the answer. It's zero. If you don't find that at all peculiar, then fair enough, I suppose. I do and several women have also noted on the fact.

 

The point is you have been arguing as if ALL the Pistoleros, and similar models, are men.  But they are not.

Can you show a statement of mine that does so? Because I am extremely well aware that there are quite a few boxes where there is one woman and two men mooks. I have never argued the point you seem to be attributing to me.

 

If you find a large collection of nerdy/gamer type women who are abuse free I would predict that the gender representation of the non-Master models would be noticed by no more than 10% and would offend only half of those.

Those are pretty heavy statistic you're deploying. I certainly wouldn't be willing to come up with such based on nothing (or if they are based on some source, I would love to read it).

 

If Malifaux models were 80% females dressed in burkas (sp?) the assholes would still be assholes.  That is the problem that needs to be addressed.

The better the representation of women in the game, the more likely it is to attract women to play it and when women players are common, the assholes have far less of a chance to be assholes.

But again, I wish to ask a simple question: would your enjoyment of the game be lessened if the new plastic Pistoleros box included two women and one man? I have posed this question quite a few times in the thread yet no one has so far answered it. But that's what it essentially boils down to. No one is suggesting anything about burkas or anything of the sort. Personally, for example, I enjoy nude minis as long as they are not gratuitous and that nudity makes sense for the mini. I'm not fond of minis that are randomly titillating for no particular reason other than to entice male gamers.

Edit: Also what Dirial said. He has been posting really wise stuff throughout this thread.