Arcanists vs Levi tactics

[Jordon]

I have been fortunate in that I have never had to face Levi so far in M2E, but eventually my day will come. I've looked at him a few times now and I have a difficult time seeing how to effectively deal with him. 

 

So ignoring the scheme and strat for a minute as i'm simply looking for decent master/crew counters. I understand that sticking to the strategy and accomplishing schemes is probably the best way to dealing with Levi, but I would still like to know what master would stand the best shot at going head to head with him.

 

So who would you drop against Levi and why? 

[Hateful Darkblack]

First, don't take Assassinate. Seriously, the way it's implemented, you cannot get full points for it unless you do something strange.

 

Second, learn how Levy works. He's less scary when he's not catching you by surprise. I have an intro tutorial video here: Hateful Darkblack's Intro to Leveticus.

 

Third: Hunt the Waifs! When they die, Leveticus loses mobility and eventually disappears.

 

Fourth, use cover to protect against Leveticus's attacks. His attack strength comes from the reliability of damage (because it's Ca 7 with a positive twist). Using cover to your advance is a huge plus.

 

Fifth, be aware of Abominations. They're irksome roadblocks for the most part, taking away suits and (0) actions until you can kill them. They are pretty easy to kill at least.

 

Sixth, be aware of Ashes & Dust. The way to kill it is to kill it early in the turn, then kill one of the component pieces. Ashes & Dust relies on activation control to survive. It also needs to cling to the board edges because of the way it's implemented. It's a much less scary critter once you understand those things. Also! If Murder Protege is on the table and your opponent is foolish enough to hire Ashes and Dust anyway, take Murder Protege, since A+D's reincarnation cycle still gives up the Murder Protege points.

 

Lastly, hunt waifs! I know I already said that, but I just wanted to emphasize it. Like many models that want to hide, you need fast models to reach the Waifs since they will be hiding. Waifs don't come back. It looks like they do, but they don't, trust me.

 

Hope this is helpful!

[Hateful Darkblack]

Oh, and one last thing: When I'm playing Leveticus, I really want to intimidate my opponent. Often I'll start the game melting a model that has a lot of defensive tricks, just to set the tone.

 

Don't let Leveticus intimidate you. He's a lot more powerful when you're hiding from him and letting him control the center of the board through fear.

[CougDyver]

I play Arcanists, and my usual opponent (moxypoo) loves leveticus, so I have had a few games against him.

 

First and foremost, Ramos has always been my favorite master, so locking him down with lots of spiders can be somewhat effective.  I've found I'm more than willing to sacrifice an arachnid swarm that I summoned, so long as it uses up all of his AP.  Plus you use up scrap preventing him from getting lots of abominations.  As Hatefule Darkblack said, Leveticus can blow through about any defensive tricks, so I generally don't rely on any high defense models, I instead go more aggressive, meaning I almost always take imbued energies on something, rather than imbued protection anywhere.  Simply put, Levy is going to kill things... give him targets he cant resist, and whenever you can, any AP you can get him to waste is a bonus.  

 

Also, unless I can kill him, I don't attack him. I go after waifs or other targets instead.

 

As for general models/crews.... I've had success with Ramos (Howard/imbued energies/reactivate from brass), Rasputina (Silent ones for waif hunters as well), and Ironsides (mages as waif hunters, hope ironsides can survive levy).  I've never played colette or kaeris against him, and for some reason I suck with Mei, so I always get stomped when I play as her against levy.  

[Whut]

I've never played against Levi, but in the event I ever go against someone who declares Outcasts, my list will look something like this (small changes depending on schemes)

 

Rasputina, Armor of December, Cold Nights, Seize the Day - 6 SS pool

Wendigo

SnowStorm, Imbued Energies, Warding Runes

Myranda, Imbued Energies

December Acolyte

Arcane Effigy

Ice Gamin

Ice Gamin

 

Counterspell and Warding Runes means Levi needs to drop a soulstone every time he wants to shoot one of those targets. Seize the Day means I will hopefully go first as much as possible to activate Rasputina (or anything followed by companioning the Wendigo) and put up Ice pillars around Levi, cutting off his LoS. Raspy and Snowstorm will try to focus and shoot for blasts towards the waifs. The Myrandabus will similarly try to go after targets, or if I go first instead of activating Raspy I can charge her into Levi if I have a couple of high cards to ensure Levi dies. Two Ice Gamin to make sure I get the bonus +1 damage aura even if one dies. Arcane Effigy for buffing Raspy's damage. Everything tries to continue scheming in the meantime as well. December Acolyte does what he does and gives Raspy extra range, and also if close can strip the H2W and Armor from the node that A&D leaves behind when it dies. Luckily the Acolyte has 8 wounds so Levi either needs to drop 2 severe cards or use all 3 AP to kill him in a single activation.

 

This is literally the best that I can think of. The list is also decent against anything else Outcasts can bring. Hamlin can't go against the blasting power, Viks will hopefully be gimped by Ice Pillars and blast damage, Von Shill will probably be the toughest matchup but Raspy can switch to a supporting role through paralysis and giving Armor +2 to targets, and even with immunity to blasts, severe 6+Burning 1 damage isn't bad.

 

No matter what you end up taking, I cannot stress enough the helpfulness of Warding Runes. Our Henchmen are expensive and forcing Levi to stone for a suit or cheat every time he wants to shoot one of these high priority targets will definitely deter him from claiming large swings in power (Levi killing the Brass Arachnid turn 2 is better than killing Joss turn 2). Due to this, try not to take super expensive Enforcers like Howard, Mech Rider, or the Rail Golem. Its just too easy for Levi to kill turn 2/3 unless you block LoS.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Whut, are you on Vassal? I'd love to get a game in against you to see how that list does! It looks really strong.

[Jordon]

I normally run Colette but his Unmaking even ignores her impressive "now you see me" DF trigger since its damage cannot be reduced. Also given that she only has 8Wds, she could go down pretty fast to Levi. 

 

Kaeris and Ironsides have access to some decent healing and may be able to weather the storm but the abominations ability to shut down (0) actions can be crippling to both these masters.

 

I like the idea of Raspy actually. Ice pillars are nice since they don't expire at the end of the turn enabling her and key models to stay safely out of LOS. Also it would appear that Levi doesn't like being Paralyzed and has little to prevent it from happening with his Df5 versus Raspy's Ca7. 

[moxypoo]

CougDyver gave some good Arcanist advice, and I think Raspy could have a good matchup depending on the strategy/scheme pool.  Just keep in mind that Levy can use his (0) action to teleport 10" and proper spreading of Hollow Waifs allow him to appear in many different positions.  Therefore, it's difficult to stay out of his line of sight while still interacting in the game.

 

One major thing to consider about Levy is that he's scary.  He can kill models at will, and that provides the Levy player a powerful psychological effect during the game.  As gamers, we tend to get attached to our models since we lovingly build and paint them, and we don't want them to die.  This often leads to people trying to play very defensively around Levy, and I can say that this is the number 1 way to lose against him. 

 

Levy is good at 2 things: killing stuff and not dying.  If you allow Levy to dictate the pace of the game, you will almost certainly lose, especially because his crew tends to work like entropy - they slowly replenish themselves while grinding down the enemy.  Therefore, the best advice I can give is to put the Levy player on the back foot as quickly as possible. Whether you attempt to alpha strike him or score lots of early VP, making Levy reactive instead of active is absolutely the best way to win against him. Another great way to do this is to eliminate Hollow Waifs when the opportunity arises. This will limit Levy's mobility and both his offensive and defensive capabilities.  The most important thing to realize is that you will lose models, and controlling which models he kills can be the key to victory.

 

For some Arcanist specific advice: Ramos tends to do very well against me, because he can win or stall the attrition war with spiders, while forcing Levy to react to plenty of big beaters.  Raspy does well too, because she can dictate the pace of the game by blasting everything across the board.

[Whut]

Whut, are you on Vassal? I'd love to get a game in against you to see how that list does! It looks really strong.

Occasionally, I have a hectic and sporadic schedule but next time I'm available (maybe this or next weekend, sometimes Wednesdays) I'll try to let you know.

Keep in mind I've never even played Raspy though xD

[Whut]

For some Arcanist specific advice: Ramos tends to do very well against me, because he can win or stall the attrition war with spiders, while forcing Levy to react to plenty of big beaters.

Really? I'm surprised. I've always thought that summoning 2-3 models with 4 wounds (coming on the board at 2-3 wounds) is an easy way for Levi to summon 2-3 abominations by shooting at them with his upgrade.

Oops, sorry for the double post!

[moxypoo]

Really? I'm surprised. I've always thought that summoning 2-3 models with 4 wounds (coming on the board at 2-3 wounds) is an easy way for Levi to summon 2-3 abominations by shooting at them with his upgrade.

 

You do have a point, but it's really about threat overload.  For example, when CougDyver plays Ramos against my Levy, I'm dealing with reactivating Howard, Joss, and a handful of summoned Spiders (with maybe a swarm) in my face at the same time. If all Levy has to deal with is a couple of half dead spiders, then you're absolutely correct!  Ramos can provide a lot of target saturation, so a few spiders can run away to do schemes while the rest engage Levy or clog up the board. Plus, they can swarm together to provide a threat that you can't really ignore.

 

It seems the trick is to go all out on summoning as many spiders as you can since Ramos can win the attrition war (1AP to summon 3 spiders, while Levy can get 1 Abomination per AP at best).

[Whut]

Hmmm not a terrible idea. Maybe I can try that in Reconnoiter or schemes that don't favor Raspy. Ramos can get counterspell too so the things I said about that still apply

[brdparker]

How about leapers for the waifs? Keep Blessed of December and Cerberus behind cover and leap out to kill the totems when you get a shot, AND they can hold their own against the 6+SS models Levi needs to come back in. Put the fear of the beasts into him. Push them into threat range with Angelica or the Captain.

 

I'm just theoryfauxing, having only played against Levi with ressers. With McM, I just turned him into a Flesh Construct before he activated... twice 

[moxypoo]

Hmmm not a terrible idea. Maybe I can try that in Reconnoiter or schemes that don't favor Raspy. Ramos can get counterspell too so the things I said about that still apply

Give it a try!  CougDyver is an excellent Ramos player, and I'm sure he could give you additional advice and tactics.

 

How about leapers for the waifs? Keep Blessed of December and Cerberus behind cover and leap out to kill the totems when you get a shot, AND they can hold their own against the 6+SS models Levi needs to come back in. Put the fear of the beasts into him. Push them into threat range with Angelica or the Captain.

 

I'm just theoryfauxing, having only played against Levi with ressers. With McM, I just turned him into a Flesh Construct before he activated... twice 

To be honest, I've never played Levy against a leaping heavy crew, but I can see it being pretty effective.  Just make absolutely sure you can kill the Waif if you leap out of hiding!

[Jordon]

Is killing the waifs really worth risking your 9ss beast models? In general my sabertooth and BOD tend to go after the stragglers and exposed models and die very quickly if I throw them into the thick of the enemy force.

 

Speaking of beasts. How would Marcus fair against Levi? His DF trigger can get around Levi's damage at the sacrifice of other beast models. Also if you can manage to get beast on the right model followed by a successful Alpha, it may waif hunting a lot easier. Marcus himself with "strength of the bear" can take out a waif with a single shot, although it may be risking devoting Marcus to waif hunting. 

[surly]

Marcus can be really brutal against Levi depending on his upgrades. My current standard Marcus has Feral Instinct, The Hunger Cry and The Trail of Gods of Upgrades.

 

With the Trail you can compete with most things Levi can throw at you in melee. Also, use a 13 of any suit to turn Levi into a Beast with Feral, use Domesticate and then Alpha Levi. Use Levi to kill at least one Hollow Waif, then sacrifice him and place another Hollow Waif next to Howard Langston & Co.

Also Marcus Df Trigger is pretty nice against Levi.

 

 

Marcus aside, the best advice imo that has been given multiple times yet is to play agressive against him and push forward. Speaking for myself I almost always run the max 3 Imbued Energies in my lists and like to burn them early. We're a really mobile faction, so it's no big problem catching his stuff, then kill it right away. Having a turn where 2 of your models get fast thanks to energies can be key here. Sure, you're probably have to make sacrifices, but in the end (at least for me, ymmv) it pays of most of the time.

[Adran]

Is killing the waifs really worth risking your 9ss beast models? In general my sabertooth and BOD tend to go after the stragglers and exposed models and die very quickly if I throw them into the thick of the enemy force.

 

Speaking of beasts. How would Marcus fair against Levi? His DF trigger can get around Levi's damage at the sacrifice of other beast models. Also if you can manage to get beast on the right model followed by a successful Alpha, it may waif hunting a lot easier. Marcus himself with "strength of the bear" can take out a waif with a single shot, although it may be risking devoting Marcus to waif hunting. 

 

The scary thing about Levi is his rebirth mechanic. Kill his waifs or his achors and he doesn't have a method of coming back. Even killing 1 restricts his options. Killing 2 will really scare most Levi players as they have now lost all his mobility, and his survivability.

 

Is that worth a Cerberus? That depends on the game. Although typically Leveticus has his waifs spread out with only 1 or 2 other models near them, so you can still pick off relatively lone models.

 

Alpha on Leveticus is funny. You can kill him so easily channeling.

[surly]

Alpha on Leveticus is funny. You can kill him so easily channeling.

 

 

I had to ask in the rules section first, but wow, he's even better than I though.

Alpha Levi, use Channel & Rebirth to kill his own Mech Rider (e.g.), draw two cards, Channel and shoot twice at a Hollow Waif (probably killing it), then perform a walk action and Channel again, killing Levi.

 

BEST. ALPHA. EVER.

[brdparker]

I had to ask in the rules section first, but wow, he's even better than I though.

Alpha Levi, use Channel & Rebirth to kill his own Mech Rider (e.g.), draw two cards, Channel and shoot twice at a Hollow Waif (probably killing it), then perform a walk action and Channel again, killing Levi.

 

BEST. ALPHA. EVER.

 

I like it! Just gotta get around that Wp 8 (twice, if you intend to Feral first, rather than attack), and you're good to go. Seems like the really juicy alpha targets, the ones where a turn with them will really wreck their crews (looking at Ramos as well) are purposely a little more difficult to alpha (Ramos has a potential counterspell). Even if not intentional, that's a nice bit of balancing there. Kudos, Wyrd.

 

 

 

Is that worth a Cerberus? That depends on the game. Although typically Leveticus has his waifs spread out with only 1 or 2 other models near them, so you can still pick off relatively lone models.

 

Agreed, depends on the game, but some of the the leapers can hold their own. I've found the Blessed to be rather survivable. It's something to keep in your pocket. If somehow, she doesn't die on an attack, leap her over, snatch a waif and heal to full. Cerberus with Imb. Prot. can hold its own against some of the lesser beatsticks as well, I've found. A particularly lucky match saw it go toe to toe with Nekima, and only die due to Nek's terminal black blood. No jokers involved, just good numbers of cards in my favor (and a little bit of good hand management if I do say so myself). That was a brutal competition, to say the least, and one of the more fun turns I've had playing this game.

[surly]

Levi only has Wp 7, so it's not that hard depending on your upgrades.

Cast Feral on him with a 13 to cheat in to ensure it goes through (Red Joker aside), then Domesticate and it should be easy getting that Alpha on him.

Also, if you don't have a 13 to cheat in you can always use Howl to lower his Wp to 5 (before casting Feral for sure)

[Patzer]

Heaps of good tips, here is another. Just hurt Leveticus, that will slow him down immensely since he uses his own wounds as a resource. Attacking his DF is the best option. Remember that a lot of Leve players want to attack early just for this cause, so don't sleep in with the attack.

 

As others have already pointed out, go after the Waifs. I think it is the best way to make Leveticus react. Even if you don't manage to kill them, it makes the Leve player vary of his Waif and will have to resort to be more cagey with their placement. A really good tactic to get the Leve player to get on the backfoot. Also, keep the pressure up! If you let Leve back in the game, he will come like a tidal wave.

 

If you have Push/lure/placement effects try to get the "anchors" out of position after they have activated. Then you can separate them from the Waifs, which might result in that Leve cannot spawn from them.

 

Feed Leveticus models. Some said before that you simply need to accept that models are going to die, which is very sound advice. Thus it can be good to plan what models you are going to send to slaughter (this is even better when Frame For Murder is around--bane of Leve). Leve-players have a tendency to not being able to let go of a juicy target.

 

Focus on strategies and schemes. Since Leveticus crew is restricted in some sense, that is, have enough anchors and that these are in place, which makes it sometimes hard for Leveticus to go for maximum points. Pick schemes which you can lock down early, and make it a race to 10 VPs.

 

At last, never give up! Even if Leveticus kills one of you best models turn 1, you can still win. There is plenty of time.

[brdparker]

Huh... I think I had the old wave 1 beta pdf's. I thought those were up-to-date. Oops. That also reveals my raw Levi knowledge.

 

Never mind. I'll reserve the kudos for another time, Wyrd

[Bengt]

BEST. ALPHA. EVER.

Desolation Engine: Walk twice (10") to get in the best position, use Consume "Sacrifice any number of friendly models within 3".", that's right, just within, no pulse or anything so you can include the DE itself.

[surly]

Desolation Engine: Walk twice (10") to get in the best position, use Consume "Sacrifice any number of friendly models within 3".", that's right, just within, no pulse or anything so you can include the DE itself.

 

You are an evil person ...

 

... in a good way

[admiralvorkraft]

...Yup, keeping that in mind for when I inevitably bleed into Outcasts. No DE when they've declared Arcanists. Got it.