How Do You Play Out-Activated?

[admiralvorkraft]

My biggest problem as a player of Malifaux is that I am easily pushed on-tilt by a few things. I'll just start pushing models around and that makes the game a lot less pleasant for me and my opponent. In interest of improving my play I've tried to identify the things that get to me.

 

I've found that the two things that frustrate me the most are Alpha Strikes (which I've gotten better at dealing with, mostly I think it's a way to make the game really boring), and Out Activation. Now the obvious solution to this problem is to either play Outcasts (with the Rat Factory) or Resurrectionists (or Ramos of course). But those aren't the crews that really interest me.

 

So what I'd like to hear is how do people approach playing out-activated, knowing that your opponent can hold their important activations until there's nothing you can do to interfere with it? How do you set up for your next turn without becoming dependent on initiative? How do you fight back the feeling that there's simply no point in trying?

 

I know that there are no firm answers but I'd love to hear how people approach the problem. I know this game is good enough that my problems are self-created, hopefully somebody has insight that can get me thinking and help me to find out something that works for me.

[Breng77]

It is hard to say without more information.

Killing opposing models helps, forcing situations where your opponent must activate key models early, focusing on my schemes and the strategy.

Honestly this is just something that happens, but it is not an impassible advantage. I won a game last weekend where by the end of it I was out activated 6-1 but due to schemes and positioning most of my opponents ap were wasted.

[Furycat]

As said above, trying to whittle down your enemy's numerical advantage can help a lot. Chances are if he's out-activating you, many of his models are not particularly tough or impressive. Focus on a few easy kills to bring his numbers down to parity. If it's a summoning crew, look at what you can do to interfere with his summoning. (Taelor is good at this)

 

Focus on scheme/strategy points rather than trying to fight against his numbers; very few games of Malifaux are decided simply by killing things. Work on positioning and board control, look for choke points or other ways you can use terrain to bottle the bulk of your opponent's forces up while you work on schemes/strats. Don't be afraid to sacrifice a model or two to simply tie up a lot of enemy models, either by engaging them or by positioning in a terrain choke point. Look to include models in your crew that can be used for this very purpose, something that's annoying to kill but an actual threat. I've been playing a lot of Ten Thunders lately, and things like Illuminated, Ten Thunders Brothers and even Rail Workers with armour +1, hard to kill, and their metal-on-metal trigger can be a royal pain in the ass to put down, buying you some breathing room. You can also take something that's a serious threat and requires commitment to kill, and use it similarly (I like Ototo for this, he's reasonably hard to put down with all those wounds and hard to kill, has a (0) to heal, a 3" melee range makes it easy to really jam things up, and enrage makes him a serious threat if not killed outright).

 

I'm still very much learning the game myself, but hopefully some of that helps.

[admiralvorkraft]

I'm not looking for some magic solution, I just know that what I've been doing isn't working.

 

Mostly it's something I struggle with in turn one, once models are engaged there's less of a disparity. Are there specific things you look for in setting up your positioning? Do you try to minimize your exposure or do you try to position your force to get stuck in as heavily as possible on turn 2, knowing that you're sacrificing some of your crew to get there? What does your activation order look like in the first turn - do you push your major threats first hoping to provoke a response? How do you force your opponent to activate an important model early before there's a whole lot of engagement on the field?

 

Obviously if there's an enemy summoning system that's getting started you need to figure out how to put pressure on that, but if they've just spammed the board with (say) Bayou Gremlins do you try and take out the little guys and accept that the important models are going to get to you?

 

I will also say that I find the game to be substantially easier if there's model parity or I have activation control in the first couple of turns. Playing to the strategy and schemes is something you always should be looking to do, I'm just wondering how you approach doing that when your opponent has 3+ activation's on you. 

[rythos42]

If you think that being out activated is causing you stress, I know exactly how to fix it - don't play Guild! *cough* By which I mean, plan to try to out activate your opponent. i do this regularly, because I hate feeling like I'm on the back foot. This is part of why I value Metal Gamin so highly - 4ss models that don't die, means that I start with good activation control, and have a better chance of keeping it.

 

I don't know your faction, but maybe there's something around similar that you can take advantage of? A lot of the 4ss models are amazing for their cost, and they'll go a long way towards getting you into higher model counts.

[Deadmuppet]

when I play mc mourning I love crews that out activate me at that means their is more models I can kill with a poisen bomb turning them into my models then I out activate my opponent. Their usualy very weak models. 2 things I ask before a game is do you have condition removal and were do you get ur pushes from. Once I know that it's hard to lose the game. Use big hitters to smash the condition removal and nurses to paralyze their heavy hitters meaning all ur activations are on objectives and killing their little ones.

[admiralvorkraft]

Actually Rythos42 I'm usually okay in Guild because Lucius likes to pall around with a couple of Hounds or Guild Guard for activation padding and Sonnia doesn't exactly struggle at making new friends...

 

Most of my out-activation frustration lately has come from Ironsides. Arcanists have so many great 7-stone models... I'll try running a couple of Metal Gamin or Railworkers in my next game for padding.

 

It doesn't help of course that my most regular opponent likes to run the Dreamer. And Hamelin. And Collodi. And ever since the Beta has settled down if he runs anything Neverborn he's got the Emissary to crap out three Changelings. He may have figured out how much this stuff gets to me.

[ArcticPangolin]

Yeah, not much you can do about it against those crews in the first turn or two. It's sort of what they do.

 

Having played mainly Guild I've definitely gotten used to it, although since I've been loving Operation Minionspam with McCabe I have often started with more models than my opponent at the commencement of the game, much to both of our surprise.

[zFiend]

If he has figured out it gets to you and keeps pushing it maybe find a more friendly opponent? The game is supposed to be fun, if it's not, what's the point in playing?

[StuffedKiwi]

Two of my regular opponents regularly play Kirai and Som'er (as summoning), and another plays McCabe's minion-swarm, so I know that feeling of being out-activated. Not pleasant. Of course, I've just started playing Dreamer, so I'm starting to feel what it's like on the other end too.

There are things you can do to try and minimize or avoid BEING out-activated: disrupting summoners, etc., as others have mentioned. But in terms of dealing with being out-activated, I try to think like this:

Mostly, I think, it's about having a plan, choosing your moment, and not getting distracted. It's easy to feel disheartened when Shikome and Hanged are appearing out of thin air, or Bayou Gremlins are multiplying faster than you can count them. And yes, your opponent will almost every turn be able to leave a few key activations until after you've finished, when you can't respond.

That also means that certain schemes are going to be better choices than others for you. Make Them Suffer, obviously, becomes a good choice against a summoning Som'er Teeth. Some will look harder -- Plant Explosives is easy for your opponent if they've got Reckless Bayou Gremlins by the dozen activating after you've finished, but it can also be achieved by you pretty easily with a bit of deception: lay some markers as if you're going for Line in the Sand, or Plant Evidence of whatever is in the pool, but when he's moved his swarm up, then you reveal.

It can also be productive to push your opponent to activate their key models early, by putting them under some kind of threat to which they need to respond -- best defense is a good offense, kind of thing. If the activations your opponent has 'saved up' at the end are more or less meaningless ones, you're not at much of a disadvantage.

Choosing your moment is key. It might be early, before you get too badly outnumbered, go all-out for that Kill Protege or Assassinate, but it might be later, if you can protect your models for a late Breakthrough or Entourage run -- don't move too soon and give away what your goal is.

And stay focused. Your enemy will keep throwing models in your face, and you will have many things to kill all game -- so ask yourself, each time, whether killing this model advances your goals. I kill this Hanged -- card-intensive, probably, and possibly risking or costing a model to the retaliation: does that help me get my VP and stop my opponent getting theirs, or is this just a distraction they're throwing at me, to disrupt my plans, and to facilitate theirs? Killing the Hanged in that situation often feels like a bit of revenge, to me, but is always bittersweet: I know those cards and that model could have been doing something else to help me win, even as I enjoy taking it down. (Hanged are a pet peeve of mine, if you hadn't noticed.)

All this comes with the proviso that I still mostly lose to those crews, especially Kirai, but I think that's mostly because our local Kirai player is actually a pretty great player, and he knows that crew inside out. But still, I try to do all this, and I still mostly lose. So good luck, and I'm interested in whatever advice others can offer here.

[scarlett fever]

I run the McCabe minion swarm mentioned by Stuffedkiwi. But running that versus Kiwi is one of the few times I'm not out-activated in a game. Even then by the final turns I'm pretty much always out-activated and that's because I don't tend towards highly aggressive crews.

 

Personally I've found out-activation one of the most difficult game effects to manage. From my perspective there are a few ways to deal with it.

 

Run really aggressive crews (which Kiwi does well, especially when playing Liltih). Many Masters suit this play style, Lynch, Ophelia, Rasputina. Basically even the odds from the get go, by the end of the game you'll be out-activating and can have a clear board to finish up your VP. This also means you're cleaning up the biggest VP threats before they get too many activations.

 

Go for early VP, in the first three turns. I've learnt that this is often a good approach with the crews I play (Shenlong, McCabe, Misaki) as usually my greatest asset is speed. By the end of the game I regularly only have a couple of models left but if I have the VP it's not important.

 

Go for control of the enemy crew. The ability of a Pandora crew to control activations is one option. Or I may use a McCabe/Shenlong crew which is heavy on missle troops with Clockwork Traps to slow down and manipulate the enemy. Use of Paralyse or Obey is another one.

 

As I said out-activation is one of the most difficult game effects to manage I find as you have to really think ahead each turn and manage the opposing threats rather than just playing reactively. But often I enjoy the level of tension this brings, it almost feels like I have to play that little bit harder and engage a little more.

 

My experience is that often the VP you're playing for when on the back foot in activations are the Strats, not all Strats but most. Those end of turn Pushes, Movements and Attacks are generally out of your control so the more you know your opponents crew and the more you can project ahead the better.

[Ampers&nd]

If I could like a whole thread I would:) this is all really useful stuff for me, I also use ironsides, and arcanists and whilst I can hold my own vs most things, the second a heavy summoner steps up everything goes to pieces (I've had an opponent over 100ss on the table after summoning against me in one game) the advice here is firstly quite heartening to see I'm not alone in this, but also quite interesting to see ways around it:) 

 

AdmiralVorkraft- Metal Gamin are great with ironsides, Rail workers too as they don't benefit from her M&SU synergies, so make great scheme runners for things like protect territory/recon where they can hang back from the main bubble without losing out:)  

[Sybarite]

As Colette I like to run elite crews but summon a few doves to even out the activation order (and help out with stuff of course).

[MasterDisaster]

If I suspect I'm going to be facing a crew that can easily out activate me I'll reach for Sonnia  (although Raspy and Wong could also work depending on your faction preferences). Her Blasts can easily whittle down numbers faster than most can replenish them. Nuke the primary target and dump a tonne of damage on the other models nearby. Failing that the Viks are quite adept at murdering things due to Whirlwind. I tend to deal with Quantity with Quality. Using Quality models tat can kill more of theirs than they can of mine so I outlast my opponent. Sometimes they run rings around me but I'll gut their primary pieces before they are finished. 

[zFiend]

You are an evil man MD.

[PraetorDragoon]

You are an evil man MD.

 

You just realized this?

 

But well, as masterdisaster pointed out, Blasts help (most summoned or spammable models tend to be a bit squishy. And as others have pointed out: Play to your schemes. Try to earn those VP and disrupt important enemies to deny VP. You can still win if you are tabeled if you scored 9 vp and your opponent who doubled his crew only scored 3 vp.

[admiralvorkraft]

All good points, thanks guys.

 

What do you look for in schemes when you know your opponent will have activation control? Stuff like Plant Evidence and Breakthrough I normally like, but they're so AP intensive that I feel like they'll make the out activation worse.

[Adran]

All good points, thanks guys.

 

What do you look for in schemes when you know your opponent will have activation control? Stuff like Plant Evidence and Breakthrough I normally like, but they're so AP intensive that I feel like they'll make the out activation worse.

 

I generally find that its the number of AP I have that matters for that sort of Scheme, rather than how many my opponent has, so if I think my crew of 5 can do it, it can probably do it reagardsless of my opponent haveing 5 or 15 models.

[jonahmaul]

It's hard to offer specific advise without more details information but the crews you've mentioned do tend to have a lot of models that are pretty easy to take down (Rats, Puppets, Stitched/Alps (though there is some frustrating HtK in there)).  I've recently started playing Guild and found myself being out-activated pretty much every game (which is unusual coming from Ressers who have so many cheap and decent minions) and I tend to deliberately focus on some of my opponents weaker minions/peons to even the activation control out (having a lot of range in Guild helps with this).  But I will only do this if it's effective to the overall game.  You only have a finite (and generally reducing) amount of AP to get your strats and schemes done so the first question should always be 'how can my AP help me achieve VPs'.  Having said that if you also want to deny your opponent VPs then you need to thin out their models so they have less AP to accomplish their strats/schemes whilst crews with lots of models tend to take a lot of Interact based schemes so killing them reduces how effectively they can do those.