Looking at Sonnia, where to next?

[zFiend]

And now we come down to the big problem that written discussion is always worse than spoken one. 

 

Yes it was a broad statement, but I meant it from my point of view (of course reading that later on, it doesn't come out at all). A small "this is just my opinion" goes a long way in these, but I am having a hard time remembering to write that down all the time and it changes the whole tone of the post. So my apologies for winding you up.

 

I do however still think that on master level those buffs are really powerful on games I have faced them and used them. They are not the only ones in the game for sure. But under discussion here.

 

 

I struggle to make the combos work when my opponents disrupt my positioning game or activation order. Both abilities rely on a very short range. Luring Franc or his target throws a huge wrench into this, for example.

 

The Papa problem is more difficult to overcome, as Papa is in a box and quite dangerous if he comes out. Obey-like effects are pretty strong here, as any try to use Pine Box releases the boxed model, usually in a position where the only model eligible for Hold This is the Marshal or his target. Also, my opponents tend to try to destroy Marshals regardless... If the opponent hides the Marshal, he took 13 SS out of his game.

 

Also, I really hope you play with enough hard cover. The additional goes a long way. Of course, Sonnia has ways to get around it, but that's additional set up your opponent has to do, and with 13 SS away, Burning is usually harder to come by.

 

Now these. These are constructive points how to deal with the matter and solid points on your behalf of the discussion. And I thank you for posting them and taking the discussion back on track. 

[Bodiless]

Just looked, and the tournement when I beat Joes Guild crew (Sonnia and Frank and Sam) seems to have been about the only tournement I didn't write a report for last year (lost love 2). (we finished 2nd and 3rd behind Mike Marshal, who I lost to in the last game because I didn't pay attention and killed his malifaux child and did weak damage to a torkage on the last turn, where as if I had focused on the Torkage, I would have killed it and denied him 2 points, giving me the win, and the child had nothing it could do.)

It was squatters rights. I used Marcus. I attacked Sonnia with Marcus on turn 1 before she activated. . My Cerberus flipped a squat marker turn 1 and discarded imbued energies turn 2 to leap and charge killing Frank.

I think Marcus died turn 3 or 4, but took up a lot of crew to do so.

the game ended turn 5 with the death of my last moleman, but Joe had only been able to flip 1 squat marker by that point (his entire crew was held up my my rushing beasts) and I won 5-4. I think I killed Frank and 1 witchling. Sonnia summoned 3 witchlings, but barely left his deployment zone.

 

I've never looked at vassel, so don't know if I can really help with that.

There certainly isn't a magic set of rules to follow, and If you've read my battle reports I have an unorthidox and random style, which does mean I  doubt I'd reach the same solution to the problem 2 games running.

 

Thanks for the write up! One question that comes to mind is that if I am remembering my models right, Francisco has "Enfrentate a mi" or some correctly spelled version of that ability, which lets him engage a target and then move all other models away. Was there some reason your opponent didn't use that to get Sonnia away from Marcus on turn 1? 

[jonahmaul]

Having recently become a Guild player who is running Sonnia for ToMB2 I think the main problem with both Hold This and El Mayor is that they are both until next activation. Until end of the turn would make them far less unpopular.

[Myyrä]

Having recently become a Guild player who is running Sonnia for ToMB2 I think the main problem with both Hold This and El Mayor is that they are both until next activation. Until end of the turn would make them far less unpopular.

It really shouldn't come as news to anyone, that making abilities worse would make them less useful.

Papa Loco is currently used by maybe 2 guild masters regularly and even they don't bring him 100% of the time. How is that an overpowered model? How many resser masters run belles practically always? There are also at least two guild masters with whom I wouldn't even seriously consider bringing Francisco. How does that number compare?

[Dirial]

It really shouldn't come as news to anyone, that making abilities worse would make them less useful.

Papa Loco is currently used by maybe 2 guild masters regularly and even they don't bring him 100% of the time. How is that an overpowered model? How many resser masters run belles practically always? There are also at least two guild masters with whom I wouldn't even seriously consider bringing Francisco. How does that number compare?

 

They also seem to be heavily meta dependent.

[zFiend]

How many resser masters run belles practically always?

 

Not all actually. There are few masters that benefit more from them than others. Others don't even need to bring them. 

[jonahmaul]

It really shouldn't come as news to anyone, that making abilities worse would make them less useful.Papa Loco is currently used by maybe 2 guild masters regularly and even they don't bring him 100% of the time. How is that an overpowered model? How many resser masters run belles practically always? There are also at least two guild masters with whom I wouldn't even seriously consider bringing Francisco. How does that number compare?

Nobody claimed it was news nor did I claim PL was overpowered. Not sure where the defensive hostility has come from?! I'm just offering my perspective on those two. I rarely run my Resser crews without Belles but that is a separate issue to what is being discussed here. I don't think either PL or Franc are overpowered but I can see how they can be considered frustrating to play against. PL is good for Sonnia but I've run her without Franc

[Myyrä]

Nobody claimed it was news nor did I claim PL was overpowered. Not sure where the defensive hostility has come from?! I'm just offering my perspective on those two. I rarely run my Resser crews without Belles but that is a separate issue to what is being discussed here. I don't think either PL or Franc are overpowered but I can see how they can be considered frustrating to play against. PL is good for Sonnia but I've run her without Franc

I'm sorry if my response seemed too harsh. I just can't see what the purpose of your post was, if it wasn't to imply that Papa Loco and Francisco should be cuddled. Was there some other intention that I missed?

[Bodiless]

I would say that the fact that the buffs last to the next activation, when so many abilities like that last until the end of the turn, adds to the perception that they are overpowered. Whether or not that they are actually overpowered is in many ways a separate issue. The fact that they stand out as something that can be applied to masters and made pseudo-permanent makes them more noticeable in some ways than some of the other crazy abilities out there. 

[Dirial]

I would say that the fact that the buffs last to the next activation, when so many abilities like that last until the end of the turn, adds to the perception that they are overpowered. Whether or not that they are actually overpowered is in many ways a separate issue. The fact that they stand out as something that can be applied to masters and made pseudo-permanent makes them more noticeable in some ways than some of the other crazy abilities out there. 

 

I agree that they are noticeable because of their unique implementation: They don't cost AP and work automatically. However, a lot of effects last until the next activation (e.g. Guardian, Defensive Stance). I also don't think them more noticeable than Abra Cadaver or Mechanical Rider's actions.

[HowNot2Wargame]

*goes to make a cup of tea for everyone, brings the biscuits just in case*

Yep they are combo's easy to grasp, and if people want to focus on specific styles with specific masters... They are great. I personally like having 95% of guild stuff (anyone got a spare metal brutal effigy?), but most like getting a collection of masters from different factions as the game (commendably) makes that easy to do.

I personally can't think of any other models which have the same style of buff as hold this and el mayor. Hence if I'm going for the most 'guild' guild models, then two with unique mechanics (and happen to be quite flavoursome fluf wise as well) are going to get picked.

[Myyrä]

Yep they are combo's easy to grasp, and if people want to focus on specific styles with specific masters... They are great. I personally like having 95% of guild stuff (anyone got a spare metal brutal effigy?), but most like getting a collection of masters from different factions as the game (commendably) makes that easy to do.

I'm only missing Executioner myself. High five! As for your Brutal Effigy problem: Click

[Argentbadger]

To add to Adran's excellent contribution to the thread, I'd like to share my own experiences with Sonnia.  I picked her up at the start of 2015 and have since run her in three tournaments to date (all posted in the battle reports thread).  I hope that Bodiless and others can learn from what the players who beat me were able to do, but in general my opinion is that positioning and AP use are the key things in winning games of Malifaux since all masters have their tricks.

 

I do love Papa Loco with Sonnia as it makes her highly effective at doing what she does best.  Putting Papa Loco in a Death Marshal's box is not really a problem since I'm going to have to move his slow, self-destructive self upfield some how anyway; I might as well do it in such a way that gives some chance of it happening without blowing up my own crew in the process.  I've struggled to get Francisco to work well with Sonnia; my opponents have always seemed able to kill him off without too much difficulty.  Indeed, I probably have had more use out of The Judge moving Sonnia about with Stand For Judgement.  If I'm really desperate to disengage Sonnia I'm not above using Deliver Orders from an Austringer to push her out of melee range.

 

Mostly I've found that if someone really wants to kill Sonnia then it's very likely to happen.  She does most of her damage at the start of a game and is often dead by turn 3.  Sometimes using her to devastate a chunk of the other crew at the start of the game has been sufficient to give me enough of an upper hand that I can win; other times I get bogged down or the scheme pools allow the other player to outscore me anyway.

 

I played all of 2014 using Ten Thunders and I've probably had about as good a set of results in the UK tournament scene with Guild so far this year as I did with Ten Thunders last year.  Therefore I would say that to me, Guild (or at least Sonnia) are about as powerful as Ten Thunders.

[Bodiless]

What do you find is usually killing her off? Is it models like Marcus that can cross the field in an activation? Return fire from some other nasty ranged threat? Something jumping cover until it reaches her? 

[admiralvorkraft]

With Df 4? Anything that survives long enough to get a good look at her can take her down once I'm out of stones. I almost never try to keep her alive, just set up Inferno so that I make them pay for her one last time...

[dgraz]

Funny thing is.....if you eschew all that Ortega/DM business and just run her with her fluff crew of Sam, Handlers, and Stalkers......I can have her live the entire game and function the entire time. Stalkers block enemies that try to engage her, Sam murders anything that does happen to get past the Stalkers.....and Sonnia summons more Stalkers......and I'm usually out-activating the opponent by turn 3 latest....instead of being out-activated the entire game.

[Bodiless]

Except that with + flips to attack and damage against many models (anything with WP6) and another +flip to damage from Hold This my list was basically all of the models that I expect to survive long enough to get that good look at her. I'm also thinking about my shiny new riflemen, who also have crazy ranged damage and the glassiest of jaws. Although since I am headed out now to my monday night game I should have a better sense of what kills them in a few hours.

[admiralvorkraft]

Dgraz, based on the extensive tactics posts you've made I can say with confidence that you're on a whole different level from me when it comes to your positioning game. Even at my best my Malifaux game is a long, suicidal slide into the strategy and schemes. No matter who I'm playing or what the final score looks like, I almost never have a substantial board presence by the end of turn 5.

Malifaux is a little like chess in that, when you're good, you can play the game and hardly kill anything. When you're new to the game however the board has so much going on that it's just easier to trade away pieces until you can see a way towards your objectives. When you're playing the game on that level Papa-in-a-Box makes a lot of sense.

 

And again, the model that I feel is a problem to run with Sonnia is the Malifaux Child. Extra pillars is sick and the Eternal Flame isn't good enough to make it much of a choice (in my opinion, ymmv).

[Furycat]

The issue I usually have dealing with her, is that it's very hard to stop her simply removing multiple models, even on turn 1. She has a very good range, and ca9 makes it very difficult to prevent her landing on a target. I can't hide my entire crew out of LOS (Unless the terrain is WAY too much), and with how far she can spread blasts it is tricky to stop her trailing blasts onto key models hiding behind cover. With a stone for a tome, she can set them ablaze and then it's gg.

 

I've routinely seen her blast 2-3 models off the table, turn 1 and that's very hard to deal with.

[4thstringer]

*goes to make a cup of tea for everyone, brings the biscuits just in case*

Yep they are combo's easy to grasp, and if people want to focus on specific styles with specific masters... They are great. I personally like having 95% of guild stuff (anyone got a spare metal brutal effigy?), but most like getting a collection of masters from different factions as the game (commendably) makes that easy to do.

I personally can't think of any other models which have the same style of buff as hold this and el mayor. Hence if I'm going for the most 'guild' guild models, then two with unique mechanics (and happen to be quite flavoursome fluf wise as well) are going to get picked.

Its  a shame, the brutal goes great with Sonnia.

[i9haunter]

Purifying Flame is a good target for Sonnia if it gets up in the opposing crew. Give it burning then push it up with the judge and double walk, maybe turn 2, and then target the Purifying Flame with all 3 blasts actions!

[Dirial]

The issue I usually have dealing with her, is that it's very hard to stop her simply removing multiple models, even on turn 1. She has a very good range, and ca9 makes it very difficult to prevent her landing on a target. I can't hide my entire crew out of LOS (Unless the terrain is WAY too much), and with how far she can spread blasts it is tricky to stop her trailing blasts onto key models hiding behind cover. With a stone for a tome, she can set them ablaze and then it's gg.

 

I've routinely seen her blast 2-3 models off the table, turn 1 and that's very hard to deal with.

 

It's not that easy to do... Also, it's very hard to deal with psychologically. She doesn't do the same amount of damage in later turns, in my experience. That's ranged crews for you.

 

I recommend a crew swap. You get a lot of perspective by looking through the opponent's eyes.

[Myyrä]

Dgraz, based on the extensive tactics posts you've made I can say with confidence that you're on a whole different level from me when it comes to your positioning game. Even at my best my Malifaux game is a long, suicidal slide into the strategy and schemes. No matter who I'm playing or what the final score looks like, I almost never have a substantial board presence by the end of turn 5.

Malifaux is a little like chess in that, when you're good, you can play the game and hardly kill anything. When you're new to the game however the board has so much going on that it's just easier to trade away pieces until you can see a way towards your objectives. When you're playing the game on that level Papa-in-a-Box makes a lot of sense.

 

And again, the model that I feel is a problem to run with Sonnia is the Malifaux Child. Extra pillars is sick and the Eternal Flame isn't good enough to make it much of a choice (in my opinion, ymmv).

I think that comparing Malifaux to chess isn't doing either game any favors. The games are just too different, because Malifaux is not as symmetric and hell of a lot more complicated.

 

I think that the point admiralvorkraft makes on Dragz being a highly skilled player rises an interesting question: Should the game be balanced on the beginner level or on a very high level of play? I myself would vote for the latter, because the skill differences between players who are just starting out are just so much greater than between those who have played for a long time, that the games are most often won by the more skilled player, unless the game is really unbalanced, which Malifaux is not.

[ArcticPangolin]

With what you have Sixgunsexpistol I would second what the others have said; scheme runners and utility models. A Watcher, Hounds, and the Family can really help when mobility is required. Definitely get a Witchling Handler for Sonnia when you can. I'd be keen to try 2 of them some time.

 

I'm still getting to grips with Sonnia, so still occasionally forget things that she does during a game. I have been running her with Cherufe's Imprint, The Mask and Reincarnation.

 

I have been taking a Handler with Disrupt Magic, a Watcher, Brutal Effigy, Death Marshall and Papa, and spending the rest on Stalkers, trying to make sure I have as close to 7 stones as possible. I've started experimenting with Riflemen to try and get more Burning out there from the Handler's aura, but I've found it a bet meh so far, mostly being useful to outrange the enemy's shooters instead.

 

There's been some time between games with her so I sometimes forget her extra abilities on her upgrades. The last two games I took along Papa and a DM I actually completely forgot that Sonnia had "Hold This!" on her, making them a waste of points other than for a body on the ground and the shots that the DM popped off every now and then. She did rather well without them anyway! I also haven't gotten any use out of Flamewall yet, most of the upgrades are chosen because of the debuffing auras that they provide. The enemy has generally been too busy trying to stay alive and scheme for me to worry about needing to block off fire lanes and charge vectors. Whenever she starts getting low on health she'll wade in with her sword, healing even faster and drawing more cards. The main issues are activating early enough to use Confiscated Lore for +2Df when necessary (her Ca of 7 is usually enough to get by), and being in range of the Handler for Burning to make more Stalkers.

 

When I lose it's generally because the enemy is generally able to accomplish their schemes while I focus on the strat and killing and completely forget the schemes in my bloodlust. I can't actually remember having Sonnia die in a game yet...

[Adran]

Thanks for the write up! One question that comes to mind is that if I am remembering my models right, Francisco has "Enfrentate a mi" or some correctly spelled version of that ability, which lets him engage a target and then move all other models away. Was there some reason your opponent didn't use that to get Sonnia away from Marcus on turn 1? 

Francisco had already been, and Buffed Sonnia.

In this incedence I was able to hold off my strike until most things around there had activated, btu Sonnia was yet to go. I think you'll find Francisco goes before Sonnia most of the time on the first turn.  That and the Defend me trigger when you're engaged with Beast Sonnia will strongly reduce the number of attacks back.

 

Its possibly also worth pointing out that even is Sonnia had gone first she would at most have got 2 flame strikes against 1 target that couldn't blast to anything else, or 1 against a modle that may have managed to blast another 1. I think I had won deployment, but was able to spread my forces out quite happily. Mind you it was fixed Master and restricted pool so I knew a lot of what Joe would bring (He also knew a lot of what I would bring).

But I know Joe, and even if he had a full Guild pool to draw from, he probably would have had at least 80% of this crew the same if not all of it.