Sensitivity in the painting community

[doctorlucky]

Wait wasn't this whole thread on being too sensitive to comments?

 

Also my advice for people who want C&C- I've asked a couple painters for input privately and they've been super nice. People are super busy! I am elated when someone spends the time to comment on something I've done-- they took time to write something to help me out. Be careful how you word things though, because it is hard to ask the right questions if you use the wrong lingo.

 

I was really worried that I was intruding by pm'ing a couple people on here and they responded with comments on areas to work on and some tips. They may have time to look at it, or they will reply a quick- "hey thanks for asking but I'm really busy" note. 

[Ikvar]

Wait wasn't this whole thread on being too sensitive to comments?

 

 

I feel like this comment is meant for me, though I am not sure how? ^^

[Clawz]

Fog: Your comment is the kind that hurts in a way that the others completely ignored so far, and I want to address it a bit: Don't avoid posting your work just because you know/believe/think it's not up to a certain par! Even if you're not doing a painting blog specifically saying "here's what I have accomplished, praise me", it can be useful to have one to help keep you on track.

 

I've had a blog for maybe a year (been painting waaay longer) and I use it often as a way of keeping myself from getting lazy! I aim for (heh, and fail at) once a week, and if I have done no painting in that time worth posting, I kind of kick myself and get into gear somewhat.

 

Please though: anyone who reads this and avoids posting because their work isn't as good as someone (anyone) else's: don't! Not saying you must post it, but don't let that be the reason. I have seen decisions for colour schemes or techniques or conversion ideas from 'tabletop worthy' to competition winners, that I've wanted to incorporate.

 

And, I agree with what's been said in a few places; I will always take time to help people who ask me for advice or tips. I try to explain my reasoning in all my posts, to anticipate what people might want to know, but I can't foresee all of it. Plus, it shows someone is engaged with your work and spent enough time to notice something they wanted to find out more about, and that's a way better compliment than 'well done' for me!

 

*edited twice because Clawz should be in bed*

[Tinweasel]

Reading the tutorial posted by Jinn, yeah, I can imagine about two hours' worth of painting. He's using white primer and following 3 washes/glazes and minimal highlighting later, he's got a figure where he just needs to do an all-over glaze to tie things together? That's the European style in a nutshell.

 

So far as critique of my work, I welcome all feedback - good, bad, whatever. If I'm only painting in isolation, then why the hell would I post pictures online? If the only feedback I get is from myself or my family, then how am I supposed to improve?

 

 

So far as commenting on other people's work, I sorta assume the same thing, but it really depends on the figure. If someone's posting a finished figure and it's pretty clear they're not planning to do any more work, then that kinda limits how much I'd offfer my opinion. If someone asks for feedback in their painting threads or what-have-you, then I figger critique is fair game so long as it's productive - generally that involves stating your suggestions politely and not being an asshat.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Yeah, actually I just read the translated one (hilariously bad translation, hard to follow sometimes) and actually he doesn't do things to differently than I do them though I suspect my glazes are thicker and his layering is less immediately apparent. I like the simple way he ties everything together in the end. I think the majority of time I lose is spent on the details - to do a good job I can't bang them out as quick.

For glaze medium - 30/70 (thin) to 50/50 (thick) paint/vallejo glaze medium - is that about right? Please share. I am one of those "do thin coats even if it might be too thin and just keep adding til it looks right" people.

To stay on topic - What do you think this is? Its the internets! Big boy pants required or no admission. /thread

[Math Mathonwy]

Reading the tutorial posted by Jinn, yeah, I can imagine about two hours' worth of painting. He's using white primer and following 3 washes/glazes and minimal highlighting later, he's got a figure where he just needs to do an all-over glaze to tie things together? That's the European style in a nutshell.

Aye, though I think that European Style also really emphasizes the importance of bringing out the focal points and using shading over the mini as a whole to do this.

But yeah, glazing and using retarder to allow you to mix glazes on the mini is a really great way of painting fast while still getting really good results. At least as long as you have really good eye for what you're doing

Yeah, actually I just read the translated one (hilariously bad translation, hard to follow sometimes)

...the link was to a Google Translate version of the page.

and actually he doesn't do things to differently than I do them though I suspect my glazes are thicker and his layering is less immediately apparent.

I thought that the most awesome point was that a tutorial for painting dark skin uses fair skin tones, grey-blue and darkish purple.

[Vaiuri]

Sometimes I think there can be a bit of a culture clash with people offering critique and advice.  The written word it so subjective, it's easy to write something in one tone and have it read a totally different way; particularly I find when not writing in your native language - before anyone gets upset, I'm not having a dig.  I have plenty of friends across the EU who use English as a second (sometimes 3rd, 4th, 5th!) language, and they can come across as a bit blunt sometimes.  But I read it that way because I am British, at least I KNOW it's not intended as such.  Not everyone has this insight.  Maybe cut yourself and this upset person a bit of slack, realise that wires got crossed and don't dwell on it.

 

My take on this - if you inadvertantly upset someone, just say 'sorry, that was not my intent' and move on - it doesn't have to be a big thing.

[AllistorPreist]

I think the confusion is from the fact that this is a gaming forum where we talk about painting, not a painting forum. I would guess 8 out of ten people are thinking when they post, this is better than the last piece I did, but not as good as the next one. Or to put it another way, most people are looking for support, not a grade.

 

Sure, advice is great but you never really know the painter's intent. If I paint Criid's face flesh instead of steel, is that a mistake, or just cause I liked the old design better? Did I use metallic paint because I don't know how to do NMM, or because I hate NMM? Did I do to few layers by mistake, or because with work and school I don't have 30 hours to spend on a model? Did i not add a little paint after the wash, or am I just not that great at it?

 

If you consider all of these unanswered questions, it starts to get easy to see why constructive criticism may be ignored, even when it is polite. Imagine if after putting in 80 hours on a technique like NMM, someone comes along and says, "hey, you should try NMM". Or imagine you came home every day after work or school to get a set of models done in time for whatevercon, you finish, you post and someone says, well you shoulda spent 20 more hours on it. 

 

It may seem sensitive, but you don't know what is happening on the other side of the screen. Even them just ignoring your advice may not be what it looks like. Maybe they read it, and are processing. 

 

That is my take anyway, none of it excuses people being rude.

[enderwiggin]

Also, on one of the purely painting forums I used to frequent (before that very attitude of 'this way is right, your way is wrong, how dare you' put me off) we had three tiers of thread.

Tier one was people basically painting for pleasure and not really looking for heavy critique. Maybe they'd get a few light hints, but mostly it was for a sense of community and to show what they were painting.

Tier two was a bit more critical, with colour theory suggestions offered, rough areas mentioned, things like skin tones looking waxy etc, and always suggestions for future things to keep in mind or work on.

Tier three was competition pieces, and brutal critique. That was where the slightest imperfection in blending was picked out, where the direction of the gaze/position of the pupils and irises was corrected, any tiny error. It's also known as "tell me - I can take it" on another forum. That's where you went to get your work shredded, for maximum improvement.

Honestly, I wasn't a huge fan of tier 3. It was painful to watch or to critique in, and even more painful to actually face it yourself. I usually stuck at tier 2 and a few people I knew well would give me tier 3 advice on the side when I had a particular piece I wanted to really push myself on and asked them. I knew they were being helpful no matter how harsh they were, and how to read their posts. They knew how to write them as well.

That tier system does require people to be able to couch their advice to the right level and in constructive tones, though. No one listens to "that's stupid and wrong" at any level, after all...

 

I really like the way that sounds. I've noticed, in many miniature gaming communities, the exact sort of behavior by painters outlined in this thread. I can count on one hand the number that didn't follow this trend, which truly is a shame.

 

One case I was in the middle of long long ago was a talented painter who was getting lazy, he let the masses fluff his ego to the point where his skills stopped improving and it came to a head in one competition event where I pointed out that his source lightning on a particular model was less source lightning than "paint half the model green, ink, and drybrush it and call it sourcelighting". It was a terrible model from someone who I watched improve over the years and get complacent.

 

Regardless, back to the topic, he pulled his mini from the comp and exited in a huff when he realized what I said was true. Had he simply had a less pampered view, he would have likely won that comp with his older (evolving) style of painting if he had listened to sense before it ever got to that point. A tier system though seems like it'd do wonders on any site using it.

[thebiggesthat]

We are always taught the 'bathtub' for critique. 

 

A positive start, room for improvement in the middle then another positive to finish. As long as you aren't being a dick and offering nothing but 'that sucks' then it shouldn't be an issue. I see it all the time on Dakka and other forums. Loads of 'that's awesome' and then you end up with a thread a month later with 'why is noone hiring me for painting jobs'

 

There is a great thread where someone posted up some Tyranid minis, and asked who wanted professonally painted models. He just couldn't see how poor his stuff was, but after a little initial hostility to criticism, he accepted the people with genuine helpful comments and his painting is coming on nicely.

 

It's all in the question I reckon. 'C&C this model' or 'help me improve' then don't be afraid to speak true. 'Just finished my first crew, so happy' type posts? Give it the 'awesome effort dude' and move on. 

[HiveCommander]

When I post a photo of my miniatures, I personally expect constructive criticism. I'm an alright painter; not amazing and not bad, but improving is a good thing and I want to be able to better myself.

 

I find that posting photos and only wanting positive feedback is little more than requesting an ego massage, and that's not the purpose of showing off artwork in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with showing off some seriously well-painted models, but showing them off while seeking an echo-chamber of yes-men is just plain silly.

Of course you can't take it too far with critique and slam the paintjob unless they specifically ask for that level of analysis, but getting angry over someone suggesting a more subtle highlight or mentioning that the pupils are in an awkward place relative to the miniature's pose is just childish.

[Math Mathonwy]

I find that posting photos and only wanting positive feedback is little more than requesting an ego massage, and that's not the purpose of showing off artwork in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with showing off some seriously well-painted models, but showing them off while seeking an echo-chamber of yes-men is just plain silly.

Even though I, too, appreciate a longer critique, I don't think that there is anything wrong with wishing just for a couple of admiring posts. I think that an "echo-chamber of yes-men" is a style of rhetoric more applicable to political discourse and such as opposed to a couple of friendly "well done!" messages from fellow hobbyists.

[Linus Mcmold]

I totally wanted to discuss a topic like this on a couple of occasions.  As Ikvar I see that this is an importan topic to be discussed and I don't just agree with people posting in this thread, I applaud Ikvars remark about improving the artistic part of the hobby and other posters remarks how to communicate the helpful critque. This sort of deliberation helps community and it should be seen.

I'm somewhat artistically inclined, but I guess I'm presently an amateur since I didn't follow through with my past artistic endeavors and just educated myself about it. I've also been very blunt with my criticism in the past and I thought being sincere, positive and polite with my criticisms was a way to go.
I learned about being diplomatic on the English Confrontation forum back in the 2006 because I had some harsh backlash and I've been called out as a troll or worse. And as with your experince it seems diplomatic course of action doesn't always help because on the internet anything can be misread.
I'm usually lost when I see a gap or a mold line on a very well executed tabletop painted mini or even superbly painted ones if I should point them out because I'm afraid I'll make someone feel bad about their skills, but I will almost always comment a miniature if it piqued my interest (I still have reservations about giving negative critique sometimes).

Anyway I agree with other posts about criticism and how you should go about it and that you should read your audience and about gamers feeling strongly about their hobby work. Wyrds forum was always a miniature painting forum and I think people should be free to criticize (without being jerks) and that people do come here to grow as artists.
I thought that this sort of communication was cultivated oer the years, but there is a lot of praise and sometimes people even don't bother to criticize minis, which is a great loss in my opinion.
Anyone posting in a thread with their minis wants some sort of comment and if I posted anything I did and I didn't get any replies I would probably read in it that my work isn't that interesting to anyone. That feels worse than criticizm to me.
Not everyone is a professional critic and you will mostly get "I like it comments", but seeing opinions about details, techniques and critique shows me that people have thought about the mini that is being exposed in a public forum.

I would have appreciated well mannered critique as Ikvar and Mako are mentioning in the past because my home miniatures club forum has a similar commenter breed to youtube commenters, which is quite harsh and I had my trial by fire when I posted my first painted mini with which I was quite happy (artistically).
I'm sort of reluctant to start galleries or my miniature painting/conversion thread since the beginnings at least until I've given my very best. I think I'll whip up a thread some time next month with a similar "criticize me" caption that Ikvars thread has, because I've started feeling confident about my painting skills.
Iron painter sounds like a great way to hone your skills and I'm sorry I don't have time for it for the next couple of months.

EDITED because I was typing the original post on my phone

Edited April 5, 2015 by Linus McMold