Metal Age vs Plasti-Models... let's be honest...

[zeeblee]

I actually by far prefer plastic Sonnia to metal Sonnia.

 

In general I like the heft of metal models.  I'm not sure why.  But having previously played Warhammer 40k, I actually really like the Malifaux plastics for how thin they are.  I've seen so many clunky space marines tromping around, and it's nice to see more elegant stuff floating around.  As has also been mentioned in this thread, I'm a fan of models that don't always have their arms pulled in to their body, as that is a habit of single-piece metals.

 

Though truthfully I care most about the game, second about the model, and I really don't care at all about the paint.  But from that perspective:  plastic is so so much better for playing on uneven terrain because of center of gravity is easier to control.

[CapnBloodbeard]

Generally speaking I think the plastic models look better, but I'm not fussed.  I just bought a stack of cheap metal models. 

 

I always just love the heavy feel

[Fetid Strumpet]

Im not sure all the masters were better in metal. I like the plastic Nicodem to any previous version of him. But yes I agree, at least for my aesthetics I prefer the metal version of most of the masters in the game.

[Bengt]

The thing is, models like that look good on the table in  play because you can actually see detail and facial features.  CAD truescales mostly look good when blown up to 10 times their size on a computer monitor or held 4 inches in front of your face. 

I certainly can't see the facial details of any ~30 mm models on the table. What I get on the table with the more realistic proportions of the Wyrd plastic models are silhouettes that are much more pleasing to my eye. But the big thing for me is when I'm painting the minis, that's when I swirl the wine around in my mouth if you will. And boy am I tired of painting "heroic" models (GW has totally burned me). The truly bizarre proportions of some supposedly human models have really started to bug me the last couple of years.

[Bengt]

And how. Pretty much all the masters are worse in plastic. Wyrd's sculptors stopped exaggerating facial features (or not enough to account for plastic shrinkage), so you end up with the same copy-paste faces across the line. Look at the multiplart sprue's. Everyone has the same boring flat affect facial expression with a nonexistant nose and a slit for a mouth. Hair/fur and lots of cloth detail on plastic is particularly soft due to weak undercuts. 

I don't get this at all. Of the Wyrd plastics I have there are a variety of faces, sure the differences are often subtle, but it's certainly noticeable when painting. I agree that metal does many surface textures better, most notably fur. Hair can be done well in plastic, but yeah, most of the time it's not that great.

[zFiend]

Im not sure all the masters were better in metal.

 

Zoraida wasn't.. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not sure if I agree of not. I quite like her alt metal.

[lusciousmccabe]

I certainly can't see the facial details of any ~30 mm models on the table. What I get on the table with the more realistic proportions of the Wyrd plastic models are silhouettes that are much more pleasing to my eye. But the big thing for me is when I'm painting the minis, that's when I swirl the wine around in my mouth if you will. And boy am I tired of painting "heroic" models (GW has totally burned me). The truly bizarre proportions of some supposedly human models have really started to bug me the last couple of years.

 

I actually get the opposite of this. My plastic judge looks awesome on the table top but I didn't enjoy painting the model at all because it felt like it was mostly blank space that I'd have to make up shading for. On the other hand I was painting metal Bishop earlier and I really enjoyed picking out the tiny details like the tendons in his forearm that no-one is going to see unless I tell them to pick up the model and look for them.

 

I think it's quite a different style of painting you have to use with the plastics and so far I haven't really got the hang of it.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Didn't really think about it much til now but I'm on the metal masters boat as well - almost every master I play with is a metal version.

Alt Seamus/Nico are awesome and nothing beats using avatar Hamelin and Zoraida as a 30mm master either - they look great.

They really put alot of effort into the masters and I think most (not all - Levy and Pandora, yuck and I wasn't a fan of Justice or metal viktorias) are better in metal. Most henchmen are better in plastic.

I look at plastic McMourning and I really like it but I look at metal McMourning with his big asskicking boots and winning smile and I just cant keep him on the bench.

[RagingRodian]

He.. Did.. Sybelle? 

 

A HERO! A LEGEND! 

 

Paul Muller also did most, if not all, of the metal Gremlins as well as a large chunk of the Resser minions and, if I am not mistaken, the whole Zoraida swamp fiends boxed set. While there were some "eh" metals in the old line most of Paul's stuff holds up very well. I initially built an Ophelia crew because I was lucky enough to spend some time with him in Nottingham during my GW days when he was working on the last versions of metal ghouls, he was a complete gentleman, very patient and willing to give advice to help with my budding sculpting skills.

 

Off the top of my head I know Werner Klocke did the model for Lilith as well as the Mature Nephilim and Terror Tots. The man is a sculptor's sculptor, I actually feel bad for whoever had to remake his models in plastic.

 

I would hardly call any of their work amateur.

[RagingRodian]

I certainly can't see the facial details of any ~30 mm models on the table. What I get on the table with the more realistic proportions of the Wyrd plastic models are silhouettes that are much more pleasing to my eye. But the big thing for me is when I'm painting the minis, that's when I swirl the wine around in my mouth if you will. And boy am I tired of painting "heroic" models (GW has totally burned me). The truly bizarre proportions of some supposedly human models have really started to bug me the last couple of years.

 

I actually do look at the facial expressions, even going so far as to use an optivisor to help paint them in. I don't know about you but even if an enemy model starts on the other side of the table I am still going to want to get closer to check out the painted details!

 

I have also found the realistic proportions thing with Wyrd's plastics to be a double edged sword. The style can make for some great looking models, as seen on some of GW's LOTR models and much of Tom Meier's work- they look fantastic. However, because you are doing realistic proportions you end up with very tiny details to paint, which can be tricky for some painters, and you end up with some pretty fragile parts especially if you make them in plastic. Going more towards your realistic silhouettes point though realistic proportions means that any anatomical or scaling mistakes stick out even more like a sore thumb. Sure, you can talk about style choices or suspension of disbelief or whatever, but if you make models that are supposed to be realistic these mistakes are glaring, and standing bad models next to correct ones makes the mistakes even worse in comparison. When you have models with oversized legs for example (hello Ronin...) they always look off, especially because there are other female models with correctly proportioned legs. When you have crouching models that are as tall as standing ones it looks wrong, especially if the crouching/kneeling model looks like it would be the same size as his standing buddies if he stood up. Finally, we actually have a Height stat in this game- we can empirically say some models should be taller or shorter than others, no excuses. When they aren't it is an obvious error. 

[Bengt]

I actually do look at the facial expressions, even going so far as to use an optivisor to help paint them in. I don't know about you but even if an enemy model starts on the other side of the table I am still going to want to get closer to check out the painted details!

 

I have also found the realistic proportions thing with Wyrd's plastics to be a double edged sword. The style can make for some great looking models, as seen on some of GW's LOTR models and much of Tom Meier's work- they look fantastic. However, because you are doing realistic proportions you end up with very tiny details to paint, which can be tricky for some painters, and you end up with some pretty fragile parts especially if you make them in plastic. Going more towards your realistic silhouettes point though realistic proportions means that any anatomical or scaling mistakes stick out even more like a sore thumb. Sure, you can talk about style choices or suspension of disbelief or whatever, but if you make models that are supposed to be realistic these mistakes are glaring, and standing bad models next to correct ones makes the mistakes even worse in comparison. When you have models with oversized legs for example (hello Ronin...) they always look off, especially because there are other female models with correctly proportioned legs. When you have crouching models that are as tall as standing ones it looks wrong, especially if the crouching/kneeling model looks like it would be the same size as his standing buddies if he stood up. Finally, we actually have a Height stat in this game- we can empirically say some models should be taller or shorter than others, no excuses. When they aren't it is an obvious error. 

The not seeing faces was meant while playing. As I tend to stand up while playing (habit formed from decades of 4' games) I can't see facial details. I often look closer at the other players models, but that is just before or after the game. 

 

I agree that scaling mistakes on realistic models are worse and can give uncanny valley feelings. But I rather have realistic proportions with a few mistakes than heroic scale. I don't know if I mentioned it but I think it looks quite bad to mix realistic and heroic models in one crew. Though that doesn't necessarily mean you have to forgo metal, if you have say all plastic gremlins with all metal pigs it will probably look ok.

[RagingRodian]

I would think that Gremlins would be one of the places where you could get away with mixing metals and plastics? That is if you were worried about heroic vs realistic scales? They are weird little swamp creatures after all. As long as the heights/scales of the models are correct it should be fine. 

 

The shame of it is Gremlins would have been an ideal faction to continue making metal models for. Their small size makes it easier to continue designing/casting good looking one piece models. Shoot, as I mentioned over a year ago if Wyrd still made a mix of metal and plastic models, and concentrated on making new plastics for holes in the line first rather than reinventing the wheel remaking new versions of current models we probably would have had a metal set of Brewmaster Gremlins to go with our Nightmare Whiskey Golem by now. Bit late now though.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

As far as proportions go - I think its important to point out that the original metal models were 32mm scale ("heroic") and I believe that the new plastics are supposed to be a true 28mm... correct me if I'm wrong. As one who does mix and match metal/plastic I can definently see a big difference overall in scale plus the Malifaux metals blend with the size of all my AoW and Enigma stuff back when I was buying Malifaux gremlins just for proxies

Good example would be metal Johan vs plastic Johana... lol

Some models (flesh constructs) are still huge though.

[Bengt]

The plastic Wyrd models that I have (adult humans standing straight) are 32-35 from feet to eyes. So if they are supposed to be 28 mm they're waaaay off.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah, my plastic Guild Riflemen won't fit in the infantry trays I have my metal Guild Guards in. 

[Dark Severance]

There is a degree of skill in not only the sculptor but the manufacturer (in terms of cutting the miniature and casting properly). I've seen the same sculptor but two different manufacturers, both metal miniatures, however one looks much better and detailed than another. The greens have great detail but because of how it was cut up and casted ended in different results.

 

I tend to prefer metal because I like the heavier weight in my hand, not only in putting it together but in painting them. Next to metal I probably prefer resin just because its easier to reshape and work with. Then finally there is plastic. However that all depends on the companies producing them as well.

 

I love metal miniatures from the Infinity line, the detail is superb. I don't really like the metal miniatures from Knights Models, the DC and Marvel miniatures don't carry the same detail or design as the Infinity miniatures. I prefer plastics from Malifaux,Wild West Exodus, WH40K as they have excellent detail in their miniatures.

[RagingRodian]

As far as proportions go - I think its important to point out that the original metal models were 32mm scale ("heroic") and I believe that the new plastics are supposed to be a true 28mm... correct me if I'm wrong. As one who does mix and match metal/plastic I can definently see a big difference overall in scale plus the Malifaux metals blend with the size of all my AoW and Enigma stuff back when I was buying Malifaux gremlins just for proxies

Good example would be metal Johan vs plastic Johana... lol

Some models (flesh constructs) are still huge though.

 

It is important to distinguish the difference between proportions and scale. 

 

Scale is the relative height of the model, both compared to a real person and to other models in the line. There is a little bit of variation that is normal here, accounting for different sizes of real people, and the various metal and plastic Malifaux humans are pretty much in scale to each other. Scale goes wrong though when models are obviously the wrong size, and this has happened in both the metal and plastic lines. The metal Effigies are obviously not in scale for being Ht 1 models (looking at you Hodgepodge!), and the new plastic Nekima is obviously the wrong size as she is the same height as a Ht 2 model despite being Ht 3. I don't know what happened with the metals as you can see before they are even molded, indeed as they are being sculpted, what size they are. Perhaps the Ht was changed after the model was accepted and produced? Not sure. Why we keep seeing errors with the plastic models have been well discussed elsewhere.

 

Proportion is how accurate the individual parts of a model's body are to the rest of the model, as well as how their gear looks compared to the rest of the model. This is technically where you would start talking about heroic and realistic scaling, as you are really talking about whether (typically) the facial features, hands and wrists are exaggerated or not to make the features more recognizable at a distance and easier to paint, as well as making the final model's ankles and wrists less flimsy. Mistakes here would include the handful of female plastic models that have freakishly long legs compared to the rest of their body.

 

You get into situations like we have with crouching models- they are obviously wrong compared to their standing peers. Now, are they wrong because their legs are the wrong sized compared to the rest of their body, making them look as tall as their standing fellows, or are they wrong because the entire model is too tall?

 

Or you get a combo problem like with the original Amazon Viks box. The models themselves were too tall, meaning you had a scale mistake. However, on examination the Ronin also have legs that are too long for their bodies, meaning they also have a proportions mistake. Sadly, only the scaling mistake was fixed when the set was redone. 

 

You also had the weirdness of the giant Death Marshall. True, we were told that he wasn't a scaling mistake as he was supposed to be a really big guy. However, the model still looks wrong because all of his gear is not in proportion to the rest of his body- to really give him that massive look pieces of his gear should have been the same size as the gear carried by his buddies, lending authenticity to his hugeness. But everything is oversized, making the model look wrong by comparison.

[tmod]

You also had the weirdness of the giant Death Marshall. True, we were told that he wasn't a scaling mistake as he was supposed to be a really big guy. However, the model still looks wrong because all of his gear is not in proportion to the rest of his body- to really give him that massive look pieces of his gear should have been the same size as the gear carried by his buddies, lending authenticity to his hugeness. But everything is oversized, making the model look wrong by comparison.

The equipment is somewhat larger, but the "Giant" Death Marshall isn't that much larger than the others; if the the Rail Workers are average US height, he's about 6 ft tall. Hardly out of scale...

[G. Footman]

I havent had nearly as many problems with parts popping off the plastics as often as I have the metals.  That said, there's been a few plastic models where I've lost heads and arms and other important tiny peices never to be found again (fortunatly i play rezzers).  and there's some plastics I just don't like as much as the metals (Like Seamus)

[Kotep]

As with a few othets, I've been assembling both metal and plastic models since early 90s as well (hello Rogue Trader), and honestly I like working with plastic better. The key part of that statement being "I like" - it all comes down to personal preference. For me, I'm really not fond of pinning at all or holding super glue until it sets or using green stuff if I don't have to. I find plastic quick and easy, and in most cases I find the mold lines easier to clean as well.

As for Wyrd's metal line vs. plastic, again personal preference rules the day. I much prefer all the plastic models, but I did come in during the start of M2e which in part probably influenced my decision. That being said I actually own a few of the metals, but looking at older models in comparison I just simply like most of the newer versions better. Somehow less "cartoony".

[lusciousmccabe]

The equipment is somewhat larger, but the "Giant" Death Marshall isn't that much larger than the others; if the the Rail Workers are average US height, he's about 6 ft tall. Hardly out of scale...

 

Rail workers are some of the worst proportioned models in the line. The one with two prosthetic arms looks fine but the other two really shouldn't be able to touch their sins without stooping.

 

Has anyone else found that plastic kits with hollow parts that join down the middle are ridiculously gappy? I was putting together Ama no Zako the other day and all her pieces slotted together beautifully but there was a gap down the middle of her torso you could fit a paper clip in.