What would make Poltergeist worth it?

[Viagrus]

I've been playing Pandora since M2E beta. When I started I only used Poltergeist as my totem. I later stopped using a totem at all, then I decided that Primordial Magic was the better choice and haven't looked back.

What could (should?) be done to fix Poltergeist?

Reduction in cost?

More wounds?

3" aura for Distraction?

Something I didn't list?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Nothing really. The problem, in my opinion, isn't with the Poltergeist not being good enough, it's with the Primordial Magic being too good. Really look at the Poltergeist. As a significant minion it's a really good buy. The Ht is the only real issue as you can't hide it, but as a total package for a unique minion that does everything it does it's a really good buy. I mean seriously, its around the same cost as a rotten belle and in many respects what it does is as good or better. The problem is that it takes up the totem slot, and for the cost the Primordial Magic totally beats it out on value and efficiency.

 

The enemy is going to devote a lot of effort in killing the Poltergeist dead, because what it does is game changing if you leave it alive. It only has 5 or 6 ss worth of Defense, so it will go down in two to three swings, and then its gone. And that rarity of staying in the game often leads people to feel as if they didn't get their money's worth out of him, rather than just seeing it as the enemy killing essentially a belle. Now compare that to a totem that can easily be left in the back field, constantly gives a passive and useful benefit, and can do many other things as well, like serving as a scheme marker, or denying the enemy the ability to take interact actions while it's alive. 

 

You can get a lot of use from the Primordial magic from just hanging back, and if it goes forward some bonus abilities, but the Poltergeist HAS to go forward to be of any use. I surprise the heck out of many opponents when the Geist charges through a rock and hits a model (remember its attack targets wp so the enemy suffers the negative twist to defense) slowing it, followed up by Candy smacking the hell out of it's target with her lowly Ca5 Self Loathing. And without fail after that he dies as soon as he's put on the table.

 

The way to look at it is if the AP spent by the opponent targeting and killing the Geist are worth the SS spent, and that is obviously variable, whereas it is much easier to use, easier to quantify the benefit, and far cheaper just to use the primordial magic.

 

Honestly, the way I see it, if they wanted to make the geist more desirable they'd need to buff it to absurd levels just because the value of the Primordial Magic is just similarly Absurd.

[The Godlyness]

for some reason all i picture people doing is Taking their poltergeist and running it headlong into the enemys crew expecting results. and from what i keep reading this is what they do.

 

taking time to set up some Incites so when you do ram that poltergeist into the crew it will live the round from something and then dora makes either a master or abunch of targets cry as she incites more allowing the rest of her crew to gain the poltergeist advantage.

 

Its not a bad totem in any way.

 

on the Primordial magic bit. apparently 1 extra card has infinite value to some people. as does nullify. but walk 4 df 4 3 wounds (incorp i know) is two squisy so all it is doing is sitting in the back field and maybe you will get a vp from protect territory. i dont see how its "so good" guess i rank things different than most people.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Illusions of Madness

0ss, Pandora

Friendly Woes within 6" of a friendly Poltergeist gain Hard to Kill and Armor +1.

[Rathnard]

The Poltergiest is fine.

Pair it up with Barbaros and his (0) Challenge action. It can get pretty brutal when you're on negatives to win that challenge duel and hit anyone other than Barbie. One of my locals had done this and yes - it's pretty effective.

[Therril_83]

I find the problem I have with both the Poltergeist and the Sorrows is the same, they die too easily, and my opponents know what they do. If I move either of them up into a range where they will affect the game, they die in the next activation from my opponent, and I have had a very hard time coming up with anything that can stop that from happening. The Sorrows die to a stiff breeze, and the poltergeist isn't that much more survivable.

 

What I've come to really be jealous of from several games of late, is when my opponents have similar synergies, and move their amplifying model up first and companion/accomplice with the main threat model and wreak havoc. If I could do that and have the poltergeist in the thick of it together with Pandora for one of her activations, that would surely warrant his 5ss in every game for me. 

 

The strat where I do like him quite a bit is Reconnoiter. Where he and 1-2 other models (sorrows are pretty good here aswell actually) can hold a quarter from some low-mid pointed enemy models, while the more heavy lifting parts of your crew bash it out with the opponents core crew if they take one.

 

I like to compare the Poltergeist to Sorrows in that they have a similar kind of effect on the game, and they cost the same. However the big thing that really differs is that the Sorrows aren't limiting your other options, whereas the Poltergeist is competing with the Primordial Magic, as already pointed out in the thread and elsewhere.

 

And to reply to The Godlyness in regards to what makes atleast me value the PM, it's exactly what you describe, it affects the game just by sitting on the back of the board if there is no other use for it. For 2ss and 1 draw+discard per turn, that's comparable to spending 1ss for 2 cards+discards, only at half the rate, ie 0.5ss/turn for 1card, which makes it pay for itself over 4 turns in that single ability alone. That it also has a way to make models insignificant (with a rg10 Wp-duel nonetheless) and can work as a mobile scheme marker, those abilities are just icing on the cake (and a very very tasty icing it is!)

[lusciousmccabe]

for some reason all i picture people doing is Taking their poltergeist and running it headlong into the enemys crew expecting results. and from what i keep reading this is what they do.

 

 

It's a pretty damn good way of scoring Frame for Murder

Then again you can do something similar with the Primordial Magic for Plant Explosives, so it doesn't  really put it ahead of the competition.

 

I like that the Poltergeist isn't just a floating Distract vector this edition but the problem is that the other stuff it can do makes it expensive and usually gets overshadowed by Distract anyway, which is why people go for the cheaper and simpler Primordial magic. It might be nice if it were a Rare 1 minion like the Obedient wretch so you could take both of them, but having negative wp available to every Neverborn crew might be problematic and they probably still wanted it tied to the Pandora crew thematically.

 

EDIT - Fetid Strumpet also totally has it right about the geist's melee attack. Loads of people completely miss that your opponent is automatically on a negative twist to defend so you can really easily hit with Ml 4

[Csonti]

Illusions of Madness

0ss, Pandora

Friendly Woes within 6" of a friendly Poltergeist gain Hard to Kill and Armor +1.

 

Yeah, I guess Kade would really love that.

[Bodiless]

I've generally had pretty good luck with my Poltergeist. I will try to move it up late in a turn, relying on its speed and incorporeal to keep it out of danger until it makes its run forward. My Pandora crews almost always have a doppelganger, so my odds of getting to activate first in the following turn are very good. Either that or you Incite something useless so you know you will get an activation before something can take the Poltergeist down. Then move a WP heavy hitter up to take advantage of the debuff. 

 

In my last game I ended up using the Poltergeist as bait to draw out a charge from an Executioner. The 'geist died to be sure, but it left the Executioner so expose to the rest of my crew, including being in Misery range to Pandora and two Sorrows, that Widow Weaver blew him off the board in one activation. I was perfectly content to make that trade. 

[Patzer]

The Poltergeist is fine. It can be brutal if you can have it sneak up on an enemy and then either have Pandora or a Sorrow (Doldrums for paralyze) to attack it. Opponents are in general very afraid of its aura (how fitting), so it can be used as bait too as others have pointed out. Sorrows can have it as a jump point. There is plenty of roles it can fill. I agree that it is too bad that you cannot have both the Poltergiest and the PM at the same time. While if you could, I think the pair would be a no-brainer thus a pretty bad design-choice...

[Nical]

VP is most important thing to win. And not every Scheme and Strategy need to kill for VP. 

But Some Woe Models like Sorrow and Poltergeist are made only to kill or deny Opponents. 

 

That is their problem. Other Models can do like them and Opponents know what they will do and their solutions. 

Pandora can kill models without their supports, so she can use other models like Primordial Magic for VP.   

[Patzer]

VP is most important thing to win. And not every Scheme and Strategy need to kill for VP. 

But Some Woe Models like Sorrow and Poltergeist are made only to kill or deny Opponents. 

 

That is their problem. Other Models can do like them and Opponents know what they will do and their solutions. 

Pandora can kill models without their supports, so she can use other models like Primordial Magic for VP.   

I don't really agree with you on that Sorrows are only killing/denial models. First, those aspect can turn into vps. Second, Sorrwos are really good scheme marker droppers. Especially if they have a Poltergeist they can tag along with while it can protect them with its big base. I had the pair securing Stake a Claim for me at times. They are solid for scorig vps too.

[Urion]

I keep seeing negative comments on Sorrows and the Poltergeist for use with Pandora and it makes me why these people use Pandora at all. I've played Pandora since around the time her new box came out and I've never regretted taking Sorrows or the Poltergeist. In a crew full of WP duels why would you not want someone that gives your opponent negative flips on his WP duels? All totems by their nature are easy to kill. The Poltergeist is actually one of the more durable ones compared to the rest. That being said, I've always had a problem keeping him alive, because he is so good. At the same time any Teddies I take almost always die before he does so... I will never not take him. He is too good with Pandora. And off topic I would take 5 Sorrows if I had enough models.

[Nical]

I don't really agree with you on that Sorrows are only killing/denial models. First, those aspect can turn into vps. Second, Sorrwos are really good scheme marker droppers. Especially if they have a Poltergeist they can tag along with while it can protect them with its big base. I had the pair securing Stake a Claim for me at times. They are solid for scorig vps too.

 

Yes, Sorrow can get VP, But I think Insidious Madness can be better to get VP.

First, Sorrow is same cost as Insidious Madness. And they are same Woe & Incorporeal model.

And Insidious Madness' Wk, Df, Wp are better than Sorrow(Except Move by Misery Loves Company). 

Though Insidious Madness is 3 Wd, but Sorrow is only 4 Wd, too.

 

And Poltergeist's rival as VP collecter is Primodial Magic.

It is just 2ss model, but You can get "mobile marker" and "rush of magic" and "free 3ss".

 

So I think Poltergeist and Sorrow are very situational models to get VP.  

[rgarbonzo]

Geist is a beast, Sorrows, I don't ever use them I use Madness instead.