Can Stuffed Piglets be "killed"?

[Aesop]

Can stuffed piglets ever really be killed?

 

It Goes Pop!: When this model is killed, it may take the Bacon Bomb Action before being removed from play.

 

(1) Bacon Bomb: Flip a card which can not be cheated and apply the following effect depending on the suit of the card. After resolving this Action, if this model is still in play, sacrifice it.

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So my question is to how the timing works of all of that. Does the sacrifice happen before the pig is removed to play due to being killed?

 

I'm asking for Make Them Suffer purposes, btw.

[asrian]

Also for Reckoning purposes as this came up in our game today and we just said No they can't, but I'd like to see what others think on this.

[The Godlyness]

The model is killed by what killed it. The last sentence says if this model is still in play sacrifice it.

So reduced to 0 wounds. Becomes killed. Takes the action. Does it's damage. Removed from play since it is still at 0 wounds and still killed. The model is not "killed" twice. So you can not infinitely take bacon bomb actions.

Side note you get corpse markers from it dying this way.

If the piglet is alive and well and you take the bacon bomb action the model is then sacrificed and no corpse markers.

Hope this helps.

[rgarbonzo]

Godlyness has it

[Sevorin]

What he said ^. Timing states it is killed after the action is complete. 

 

 Its clear that the model states "if this model is still in play sacrifice it" which, it is not. It is removed after the action is complete.

[asrian]

So then it would have been killed for Reckoning and Make Them Suffer points going by that logic. Anyone else have thoughts?

[ArcticPangolin]

What Godlyness said. Had it come up in game and it made sense that way.

[The Godlyness]

Yes the model counts for reckoning And make them suffer if killed by an enemy model. (Henchman Or master for make them suffer.)

[Ngangata]

I dont agree.

The pig is reduced to 0 wounds and killed.

It takes the bacon bomb action.

After the bomb is resolved the pig is still in play (it hasn't been taken off the table yet) so why are you not sacrificing it per bacon bombs instruction.

 

 

 

 

Ngangata

[rgarbonzo]

Going by that logic you could Bacon Bomb until the model(s) you are around are dead...

[Ngangata]

Going by that logic you could Bacon Bomb until the model(s) you are around are dead...

Please explain, because after the first resolves you are instructed to sacrifice it.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Yeah, a killed model isn't still in play. Godlyness and rgarbanzo have it.

[rgarbonzo]

Please explain, because after the first resolves you are instructed to sacrifice it.

Was thinking of the old rule for Bacon Bomb, though once the piglet reaches 0 wounds it is killed nothing in the Bacon Bomb action changes the piglets state from Killed to Sacrificed. When completing an action then check to see if the model is still in play as it has already been killed and removed immediately from the table after completing the BB action it cannot possibly still be in play, therefore no sacrifice.

[Ngangata]

Yeah, a killed model isn't still in play. Godlyness and rgarbanzo have it.Iif it is not in play how is the pig using any ability.

If it is not in play, how is the pig using any ability?

 

It Goes Pop!: When this model is killed, it may take the Bacon Bomb Action before being removed from play.

 

It has to be killed to use the ability.

The action is taken before it its removed from play.

 

 

Ngangata

[Hateful Darkblack]

If it is not in play, how is the pig using any ability?

 

 

Okay, so, um, that part about how if it's in play, it's sacrificed, what do you think that part means? Why do you think it was put in there?

 

I think it was put in there so that when the Stuffed Piglet uses Bacon Bomb from It Goes Pop!, it doesn't get sacrificed.

 

It sounds like you don't think the phrasing means that. How would you phrase it so that it did mean that?

[Ngangata]

Was thinking of the old rule for Bacon Bomb, though once the piglet reaches 0 wounds it is killed nothing in the Bacon Bomb action changes the piglets state from Killed to Sacrificed. When completing an action then check to see if the model is still in play as it has already been killed and removed immediately from the table after completing the BB action it cannot possibly still be in play, therefore no sacrifice.

After Bacon bomb resolves the pig is still in play. It is in play while you drop a corpse. It is in play until you pick it up and remove it from the table.

I agree that nothing changes its 'killed state', but bacon bomb doesnt care. It sees that the pig is still there and sac's it.

 

Okay, so, um, that part about how if it's in play, it's sacrificed, what do you think that part means? Why do you think it was put in there?

 

I think it was put in there so that when the Stuffed Piglet uses Bacon Bomb from It Goes Pop!, it doesn't get sacrificed.

 

It sounds like you don't think the phrasing means that. How would you phrase it so that it did mean that?

So you think they tell us to sac it because they dont want us to? That doesnt make a lot of sense to me.

I believe it was put there so the pig cant blow itself up with a Bacon Bomb to use it goes pop! to get another Bacon Bomb.

 

 

Ngangata

[rgarbonzo]

No the pig is not "in play" the model is immediately removed after completing the action, check for in play nope not there. If it was sacrificed it would never drop corpse counters. 

[Ngangata]

No the pig is not "in play" the model is immediately removed after completing the action, check for in play nope not there. If it was sacrificed it would never drop corpse counters. 

Can you point me to where it says to remove it immediatly after. If it is not in play how are you dropping that corpse counter. I dont believe they ever will drop a corpse.

 

 

Ngangata

[rgarbonzo]

pg 46 2E Rulebook, third paragraph, last sentence,
pg 51, Rules Manual, third paragraph last sentence  

"If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed"

[Math Mathonwy]

What if, whatever killed it is taking another swing at it due to a Trigger forcing another attack?

[rgarbonzo]

Still Killed IMO

[Ngangata]

pg 46 2E Rulebook, third paragraph, last sentence,

pg 51, Rules Manual, third paragraph last sentence  

"If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed"

I was looking for the rule that said "immediatly after completeing the action" as you stated.

It Goes Pop! modifies the normal sequence of removing a model immediately by allowing you to take a "bacon bomb action, before being removed from play".

After resolving the Bacon Bomb you sac the piglet if it is still in play. It hasnt been removed yet and i dont see permission to do so before it is sacriiced.

 

 

Ngangata

[Hateful Darkblack]

Looks like we have a difference of interpretation here? I doubt that anyone'll be convincing anyone about this, but I know how I'd be playing it.

 

EDIT: It's really a difference of interpretation, not opinion. Updated accordingly.

[solkan]

Some effect or attack reduces the pig to 0 wounds.  That causes a sequence of events that causes you to evaluate "It goes pop!" and that causes you to run through the Bacon Bomb action.  You get to the end of bacon bomb, and now you sacrifice the pig.

 

 

Sacrifice

 

Effects that sacrifice models remove them from play, but the model does not count as having been killed.  Sacrificed models do not drop Markers.

 

If that's supposed to mean "... but the model does not count as having been killed by the effect that sacrificed it" then the sacrifice by Bacon Bomb doesn't retroactively prevent the model being killed.

 

And, given the way the Malifaux rules are written, that "... but the model does not count as having been killed by the effect that sacrificed it" is reasonable.  The rules aren't written with the strict priority mechanism that certain other games use.

 

Are there any abilities on masters or other models where a model is clearly designed to sacrifice itself to avoid being killed by something?

[Hateful Darkblack]

 

Are there any abilities on masters or other models where a model is clearly designed to sacrifice itself to avoid being killed by something?

 

There were in the previous edition of the game, and they were all specifically and systematically removed.

[Omenbringer]

Bete Noir and Bad Juju with his upgrade are probably the closest to do that, though both interactions are worded much clearer.