Summoning in lower point games

[wizuriel]

So I've seen a lot of people claim on these forums that Malifaux isn't balanced for lower SS games (around 30-35pts), especially for summoner. In my area the most common played game size is 50pts followed by 30pt games. We're looking at starting slow grow leagues and trying to introduce the game to more players so kind of concerned on the balance issues for the smaller game sizes. 

 

I know I've played Som'er at 30pts and while my opponent was concerned how fast/easily I was able to bring in Gremlins, after the initial shock she didn't seem to mad at it. So just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this?

[Swiglitz]

I've only played a couple of games at 35ss with a summoner but it did seem a tad overpowered. Being able to bring in really nasty, high-cost models like The Hanged and the Iron Zombies in such small games can really make a difference.

 

The only real balance is in a smaller game I tended to not take as many upgrades on Nicodem or Mortimer meaning I was generating less corpse tokens per turn and I wasn't able to buff/heal my summons to the level I can in 50ss games. I think that's pretty cold comfort though when you can be sitting on over 50ss of models in a couple of activations compared to your opponents 35.

 

I'd definitely think about capping summons somehow in an escalation league. Maybe making all summoned models Rare 1, or limiting the number of summoned models a player can have in play at any given time. At least until everyone has enough stones to provide an answer. Maybe play a couple of practice games before you start your campaign and talk it over with the players? You might not have any problems if your meta is built differently to mine.

 

Hope that helps.

[mythicFOX]

A lot of slow-grow formats limit a player's pool of models. Players aren't allowed to summon models which aren't in this pool, limiting a summoner's power in smaller games.

 

So if week/month one limits you to starter box if the model isn't in there it can't be summoned.  For example; if you only had four Bayou gremlins from your starter box, and they're all in play, you can't summon more until one dies.

 

That tends to act as a good limiting factor for this sort of beginner format.

[Csonti]

Another option is to use Henchmen as leaders in games of 40 or less SS.

[dgraz]

Another option is to use Henchmen as leaders in games of 40 or less SS.

And Toshiro summons for the win.

[wizuriel]

Another option is to use Henchmen as leaders in games of 40 or less SS.

 

People like to use Masters though and don't think they should not be allowed in 40 or less because of a few summoners. 

 

 

Mythicfox that seems interesting for battle box games (though Seamus might be at too much a disadvantage), but at what point do you open summoning? How would you handle 35-49pt games? 

[mythicFOX]

There are various options. The ToMB format was something like $60 worth of models for month one and then +$25/month after that. You could do the same thing with SS pools going forward. So 35ss games from a 45ss pool, then 40ss from a 55ss pool etc.

I'd look at taking the limit off when your games get to 45 or 50ss.

[Bruglyother]

We are currently having a league set at the 40 stone level. There are two players (myself being one of them) playing crews with strong summoning capabilities. So far, it has not been a serious issue. That being said, anything below 40 tends to get real messy real fast without limits. A few weeks before the league, we played some 35 stone games, and I quickly outnumbered my opponents to the point of dominating the table and VP.

I agree that a limit of some form should be set below 40 stones. I would go with a soulstone level for the pool. Using box sets or dollar value can skew the balance since some sets don't contain the same stone levels, and dollar value runs into a similar issue.

[Clement]

The real challenge to a grow league with malifaux is that you need a to balance the game between new players and experienced folks. True, just throwing a soul stone limit on there will absolutely help, but in a game where the crew makeup will vary so wildly from game to game, depending on scheme/strats you might want to put a second cap on things to stop people like me with a huge toolbox of dudes from building a more customized list compared to the basic crew box crowd. Honestly, the TomB method of doing it based on dollars makes a lot of sense. You would want to do it on dollars and stones just to keep things moving up to larger games.

[Cats Laughing]

Another option that will possibly prove unpopular, but can work for small points games, is to restrict upgrades.  No upgrades would restrict summoning pretty hard for a lot of masters/models.  Some models can summon without upgrades, but other than Nicodem, that summoning is pretty toned down from fully upgraded summoning.

 

The reason this will prove unpopular, though, is that by restricting upgrades you affect a lot of other masters and their playstyles.  I wouldn't have too much of a problem playing my Master of the week flavor without upgrades for the first few weeks of a league as the league grows, but I know a lot of others on these forums would have problems with being restricted from playing their master how they want to play their master.

[Pierowmaniac]

Copy and pasted out of my rules for beginner friendly league starting next month:

note: league is going to be 6 weeks long.

 

• Model Pool: Each player will choose and play with one starter box + one small box (small boxes usually contain 3 standard size models or 1 large model) on the first week of the league. One additional small box may be added to the player’s available pool of models each following week.

 

• Game Size: The 1^st weeks games will be 30SS (soulstones) sized games and the game size will increase by 10SS every two weeks. Therefore the final two weeks will be played at 50SS

Previous leagues I've run have used similar rules and not had any problems with summoning.

[The Godlyness]

Another option that will possibly prove unpopular, but can work for small points games, is to restrict upgrades.  No upgrades would restrict summoning pretty hard for a lot of masters/models.  Some models can summon without upgrades, but other than Nicodem, that summoning is pretty toned down from fully upgraded summoning.

 

The reason this will prove unpopular, though, is that by restricting upgrades you affect a lot of other masters and their playstyles.  I wouldn't have too much of a problem playing my Master of the week flavor without upgrades for the first few weeks of a league as the league grows, but I know a lot of others on these forums would have problems with being restricted from playing their master how they want to play their master.

Tara would cry herself into the new kirai. Saddest master to ever walk malifaux.

[Viagrus]

A few ideas on how to balance casters at low SS games.

How about doubling the AP cost of the summon action (be it a casting action or a tactical action).

Or

Make the summon only once per turn, but triggers allowing the action to be repeated are allowed (if such a trigger exists)

Or

Summoned models come into play paralyzed. During their next activation they have slow, every activation after that they have their full complement of AP.

[Cats Laughing]

Tara would cry herself into the new kirai. Saddest master to ever walk malifaux.

 

Yup, like I said, it's not a great idea.  It certainly hits most summoners, but also hits other masters/models.  Not, however, that one of the M2E goals was to be able to play the game without using upgrades at all.  Some masters/models may certainly seem cuddled without upgrades, so I'm not sure how well that idea got implemented (or if it was abandoned in favor of pursuing balance at 50ss).

 

Anyway, of the ideas presented, I like the pool of models limiter, like the ToMB schedule of purchases or Pierowmaniac's league rules. I think it nicely limits summoning without having unintended effects on other models/playstyles.

[Clement]

Copy and pasted out of my rules for beginner friendly league starting next month:

note: league is going to be 6 weeks long.

• Model Pool: Each player will choose and play with one starter box + one small box (small boxes usually contain 3 standard size models or 1 large model) on the first week of the league. One additional small box may be added to the player’s available pool of models each following week.

• Game Size: The 1^st weeks games will be 30SS (soulstones) sized games and the game size will increase by 10SS every two weeks. Therefore the final two weeks will be played at 50SS

Previous leagues I've run have used similar rules and not had any problems with summoning.

I love this idea, but I have a question for clarification. How does a second master/crewbox join the pool? For example, I start with the Nico box, and then buy a Seamus box for models. The belles can be cycled in as a "small box" but will Sybelle and Seamus ever join my pool? Would they be "large boxes" by this method?

[Mason]

Counting Sybelle and Seamus (and the Copycat Killer) as their own "small box" could work.  Then someone getting a large box would essentially be getting two smaller boxes, which feels about right. 

[Adran]

On the times I've seen something like this, back in the old days, we could buy any Mini as a single, so if it didn't come in a multi pack, we just counted it as 1 blister.

 

I'm guessing most beginners leagues expect  players to stick with one master in the pool, but if not then allowing the addition of 1 large box, or 2 (or 3) small boxes could work welll near the end of the league

[Bengt]

I would split a crew box as follows:

Master and Totem(s) (if this is allowed at all)

A single rare 1 Enforcer or Henchman

Two identical Enforcers

Three identical Minions

 

Anything that is available separately counts as that, so four Bayou Gremlins would be a pick regardless of actual source, a Steam arachnids pick would allow either one swarm or three spiders in a given game because of magnets.

 

Counting Sybelle and Seamus (and the Copycat Killer) as their own "small box" could work.  Then someone getting a large box would essentially be getting two smaller boxes, which feels about right. 

That would feel exceedingly generous to me since for instance Bishop is one pick, Governor's Proxy is one pick, etc.