Dead Doxies?

[D-A-C]

Hi guys.

 

I am planning on giving Seamus a go this week for the first time since the Wave One Beta. Now, with access to all the finalised Wave 2 Beta models aswell, I was kind of curious how you guys use Dead Doxies?

 

I had mentioned during W2 Beta that I thought they were a just a tiny bit little light for 6ss, and currently I am struggling to imagine why I would actively pay 6ss to start a game with one. Obviously I could see myself summoning one off of a Corpse Counter at some point naturally in a game, but that's not the issue.

 

So I'll give a quick over view of my interpretation of the model, and would love it if you guys could add some thoughts about how to use them, their strengths and weaknesses, plus this will have the benefit of having a nice resource to base the Dead Doxy pullmyfinger wiki off of, as it is currently empty.

 

So my thinking is a Dead Doxy has to be situated against a Rotten Belle, in other words why bring along a Doxy at the start of a game and not just a Rotten Belle which is pretty solid all round for 5ss?:

 

 

Mobility

 

Both possess the exact same Wk and Cg characteristics and both benefit from Sybelles Cathouse Madam ability for +1Wk so there is no difference between the two in terms of movement.

 

 

Defense

 

Compared with a Belle the Doxy has +1Df and + Wp which is good, but is also unfortunately -2 Wounds with only 6. They both have H2W which is solid but the Doxy, unlike the Belle, comes with a Defense / Willpower Trigger Hands Off! which with a Mask which allows the Doxy a 4" push if damaged by an enemy Attack.

 

The only other thing of note, is that a Doxy, when it dies it makes a single model with 4" Fast for the Turn, which can be a nice little bonus giving perhaps a high power model in your crew an extra AP.

 

Overall then there isn't much seperating these two models defensively, they are about as solid as each other given the buff on Df and Wp for Doxies at the expense of a couple of Wounds. The Doxy may just have the edge due to the Trigger that allows them to get a push after taking damage, but as it requires a Mask it isn't a given, so it's only a slight edge in the Doxy's favour.

 

 

Offense

 

Both models possess the Pounce ability, and crucially both models also can take advantage of the ability internally during their own activations and both possess a means to get an enemy model to move into their melee range via a Push ability, so they are even here.

 

In Melee the Doxy has a clear advantage with a Ml of 6 vs the Belles 5 and a damage track of 2/3/4 vs the Belles 1/3/4. Both posses triggers on their single Melee abilities, with the Doxy gaining a positive to damage with a Ram, and the Belle Preventing opposing models from taking Walk actions on a crow.

 

In terms of abilities The Doxy only possesses one, Take the Lead, which on a successful willpower duel allows the Doxy to Wk and then push the target its Wk in any direction, so its an advanced type of Lure, albiet with 8" less range at only 10". However, the ability does also have a Trigger, Confusing Feelings, which on a Mask gives the opposing Model a negative to all opposing duels in which it is the defender for the rest of the turn, a very, very nice ability. Although just to reiterate that is only on a Mask, however there shouldn't be too many other models in the crew competing for them which isn't so bad.

 

On the other hand a Belle possess the extremely powerful (some people might even say OP) Lure with a Ca of 8 and Range of 18, in most instances if a Belle can see it, she can Lure it, and if you manage to Lure with a Crow you force your opponent to discard a card aswell which is always nice.

 

The Belle also has the ability Undress, which gives an opposing model the Slow condition on a failed Wp Duel.

 

Its hard to say that either model has a definitive edge in terms of offense. The Doxy is packing a better Ml and a more advanced Lure with the possibility of a nasty trigger, but is that worth an extra SS of base cost? The Rotten Belle may do nothing flashy but it is solid all round and 9/10 Lures what it wants, when it wants.

 

 

Summoning

 

Summoning might seem like a bizarre comparison, and in fact its not a comparison at all as Seamus summons any Belle in the same manner, however, what I am interested in, is are there ways to summon a Doxy that would make the whole point of starting a game with one vs a Belle a redundant argument.

 

In otherwords, what resources / costs are necessary to summon a Doxy on Turn 1 with Seamus?

 

 

Method 1 - Buy a Canine Remain (4ss) Turn 1 Activate Canine and Found a Bone requiring a 8+ of Crows, then Arise My Sweet with Seamus requring either a 9+ of crows or a +9 and a SS.

 

So the total cost then is always a full models activation (Canine) and 1AP of Seamus + either two 8+ Crow Cards or a minimum of a single 8+ Crow and a 9 of any suit + a SS.

 

With this method you save either 1 or 2ss for the above exchange in terms of cards and activations.

 

 

Method 2 - Buy the cheapest Rezzer model to kill and then summon a Doxy off of it. A canine remain is probably best because of its stats.

 

Seamus then uses 1 Ap to Flintlock the model (cheating up and down as necessary to win the duel) and then 0 Arise with a 9+ of Crows or a 9+ and a SS.

 

In this method you only need realistically a single low card in case you need to cheat the Canine Remians down due to a spectatcular draw for its defense, and then a single 9+ of crows or 9+ and burn a SS and Seamus uses 1AP. So either saving 1/2 SS with this method.

 

 

Method 3 - Purchase Corpse Bloat for 2ss and place it on either Seamus or a Henchman of your choice.

 

Use the 0 action Corpse Bloat, then have Seamus 0 Arise My Sweet

 

This method is relatively cheap and requires no actual AP, spending only 3 wounds on the Corpse Bloat model and 9+ of Crows or 9+ and a SS. So you could save 3/4 SS using this particular method.

 

 

Conclusion

 

I had mentioned in the Beta I thought Doxies lack just that little something, nothing much, but just a tiny, tiny tweak to justify that 6ss starting cost over 5ss. Comparing them, I don't feel I am wrong (on card at least) but that may have more to do with Belles being too solid for their cost perhaps?

 

Now, it should be pointed out summoning a doxy as an action of opportunity mid game when corpse counters start appearing naturally is completely fine. I am curious about either starting with one over a Rotten Belle or spending resources with the intention of gaining one first Turn.

 

So what do you guys think?

 

How do you use your Dead Doxies, do you think they justify 1 extra Soulstone over the hiring of a standard Rotten Belle, do you have any methods other than what I listed to summon them first turn?

 

[zFiend]

I have used them for now as summons, I prefer taking Rotten Belle's from the get go and once the corpses start coming in if I have enough Belles then I go for the Doxies, if there's a corpse counter in such a location it would be better suited for a Belle then it's Belle. They are not bad, but then again I feel Rotten Belle's are too good, anyway that topic has been grinded to death already so back on topic: I prefer them as summons. 

[Hateful Darkblack]

(I'm mostly a Leveticus player, and in that Crew the extra SS cost of the Dead Doxy justifies itself because the Doxy (unlike the Belle) can be used as a Crew anchor.)

 

A Doxy and a Belle work really well in conjunction with each other. The Belle Lures a target in, and then both jump in and Pounce, with the Doxy doing more damage.

 

The Doxy Confusing Feeling trigger is another big advantage. If you can get that debuff in early in the turn, it probably means the opposing model is not going to survive the turn.

 

I would agree that the Belle is more efficient on SS than the Doxy, but there's also hybrid vigor here, because their abilities complement each other so well. I'd choose a Belle over a Doxy, but I'd choose a Belle + Doxy over two Belles.

[DeleteAccount]

Basically, my thought process is that I hire a belle when I want to move the enemy and a doxy when I want to move my crew. Take the Lead just gives such a huge amount of flexibility of movement on the affected model that it's outright superior to Lure for perfect placement of models, which is mostly used on your friendlies. That she is competent in combat and gives out fast when she dies is just gravy. Her debuff is a kick in the nads if it goes through.

[Cats Laughing]

Given that Doxies can Take the Lead on friendly models and the push is in the direction of your choice, I would be inclined to take Doxies over Belles to start a game where I want to push my Tank/Beatstick/Whatever up the field faster.  That's my primary motivation for taking Doxies over Belles at crew selection time.  Of course, I tend to end up taking a mix of the two as I'm not big on spamming models.

 

Essentially what others have said already

[Ausplosions]

I usually take one of each. Doxies are fantastic crew support.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I personally have found Doxies are very often not worth hiring at the start, but are great to summon in.

[Ausplosions]

I've found them to be indispensable in most crews. Love them

[zFiend]

But the part of getting a big model out faster can be done with Belles as well, Sybelle Calls Belle and then Lure the model you want forward and it's cheaper than Doxies

[Mason]

That requires having a Sybelle, though.  

[zFiend]

That requires having a Sybelle, though.  

 

Correct, but she''ll be there anyway  

[DeleteAccount]

Correct, but she''ll be there anyway

Not really

[zFiend]

Not really

 

Well she will for me! The darn prettiest gal in all Malifaux (the old metal)!

[D-A-C]

Some good responss guys.

 

What do you all think of my summoning suggestions?

 

Can you uys think of a good one that is cheap on AP and has decent reliability for a good Soulstone Saving, that way you can first turn summon one rather than pre-purchase so to speak?

[zFiend]

I thought the Corpse bloat is propably the best one, taken how easily Seamus can heal those wounds back.

[Dirial]

I thought the Corpse bloat is propably the best one, taken how easily Seamus can heal those wounds back.

 

But it will be two turns, then. Both are (0) actions.

[zFiend]

But it will be two turns, then. Both are (0) actions.

 

Oh right that's true. Completely forgot that. Hm, then it's a bit tougher choice. 

[MasterDisaster]

Mortimer + Corpse Bloat for the corpse counters (probably best target for CB as he has Regen +1 and he doesn't have a (0) of his own) then have Seamus Arise for his (0). First turn 1x Belle/Doxie and a spare counter for turn 2 as well. Job done! By the time he activates in turn 2 he will have mitigated 1/3 wounds with his regen and all it's cost you is 2 (0) actions and a 9+ or 9+ and a SS. Also by this point as mentioned you have the 2nd corpse marker ready for a 2nd summon. 

 

Mortimer also adds extra movement in the crew with Fresh Meat , he's fairly tough, he brings along Chatty which is immensely useful and he can swing that shovel all day long dishing out some fairly respectable damage to boot. He also has companion so he can chain with Seamus or the other Belles. 

[Mason]

You could just bring along a Canine Remains, as they would give you the potential to dig up a corpse right away, and then can run off and do objectives on subsequent turns. 

[zFiend]

You could just bring along a Canine Remains, as they would give you the potential to dig up a corpse right away, and then can run off and do objectives on subsequent turns. 

 

True. 

[MasterDisaster]

You could just bring along a Canine Remains, as they would give you the potential to dig up a corpse right away, and then can run off and do objectives on subsequent turns. 

 

True but I kind of prefer Mortimer for more reliable Corpse Marker production because he has the suit already. Yeah he needs an 9+ but it's any 9+. The Canine Remains needs an 8+ and the  . Also with My Favorite Shovel Mortimer can use his Casting Expert to generate the Corpse Marker, use Corpse Bloat for a 2nd Corpse Marker and still have 1AP left to move, interact or go defensive. Saying that with both upgrades he's quite pricey. 3 Canine Remains roughly = Fully Upgraded Mortimer so I suppos it depends on how you look at it and which direction you prefer. 

[D-A-C]

Would Sybelle going down a Corpse Bloat be too much do you think? Corpse Bloat is in of itself useful for exploding corpses too and Seamus tends not to use many Corpse Counters in a given game anyway (usually 2-3 I find unless you use Red Chapel Killer of course).

 

She features in 90% of Seamus lists, is comparitively cheap, 8ss (10ss with Bloat) although that immediately drops her down to 6 Wounds which isn't the best for 10ss investment.

 

I am trying a Nurse in lists this week so healing is available, but your losing a full activation to heal due to paralyze on Take Your Meds Heal, and your into more card resources / AP  if you go down the healing up route.

 

There is always the middle option I suggested, take a dog, shoot it  with 50. and baring a black joker its dead as min dmg is 4, then arise my sweet and continue with turn.

 

This saves you two SS unless you need to burn 1 for a crow suit, but you still save 1 which is a bit meh.

 

EDIT

 

With this method you could combine it with the Found a Bone method, as draw your control hand and if you have the necessary crows your home free and can keep the dog, and if not just slaughter it.

[MasterDisaster]

You could always take Chiaki along with a Nurse for additional heals and condition removal to get rid of the paralyze I suppose

[D-A-C]

You could always take Chiaki along with a Nurse for additional heals and condition removal to get rid of the paralyze I suppose

 

Had thought of that, but she is 6ss, could just buy a Dead Doxy for that and save all the bother.

 

Its basically if there is a method that doesn't take you too far out of what you A. Would naturally bring B. Isn't too resource / Ap intensive.

 

Don't forget Seamus, more than likely will have a chance to summon at least one naturally in every game, so its more of a first Turn try to sneak in a more valuable model (6ss) for less than the asking price.

 

Its a good sign though that we have largely moved away from all that stuff in 1.5 of Kirai, McMourning first turn nuking things to get some 6-10ss of extra model for usually a Desperate Merc and something else equally cheap and expendable.

[PeregrineFalcon]

As a quick note. Dead Doxie's "Take the Lead" isn't an advanced Lure. It is actually no where near as good since Lure is not a push, but "take the Lead" is a push for both models.

 

I see their worth being in their "Confusing Feelings" trigger though as that is quite powerful.