Kadeton

So with Future Sight, if I name Crows (for example) and my opponent doesn't have any Crows in hand but does have the Red Joker, are they forced to discard the Joker since it has all the suits? I feel like Rasputina's Avatar would make a really good proxy for Euripides.

This update fails to address the fact that Nicodem still has "Living" on his card.

Yep, a push into base contact is "in relation to another model". P. 43:

I figured you would have to use that second AP to walk around Som'er and get into position to charge on the next activation - pushing into base contact with him when he's moving towards the enemy will almost always mean he'll be in the way of your charge. It's the all-in surprise-attack aspect that I think is its weakness. The first few times you saw it, you'd get completely blown away, but it shouldn't take too long to figure out ways to stop it. It's a tactic that inherently becomes weaker the more you use it.

Totally, there are plenty of interesting possibilities! Unfortunately, the further forward you push the lead pig, the easier it is for the enemy crew to respond and kill it before you can get started. And your Som'er-bowling pig has already burned one of its activations and left your Master way upfield and lacking either Wds or soulstones... I'm sure there are lots of cool ways that this list can get across the board if it needs to, but they all have costs and consequences - and no matter what, if someone shuts down one Warpig in any way you've lost a huge amount of punch, and there's no backup plan. It's not a brainless list to play, is ultimately what I'm getting at, I suppose. You'd need to be clever and careful (and a little bit lucky) to make it work, because small positioning errors or enemy interference will wreck its delicate machinery. I'd really like to see it on the table, honestly. It would be a really interesting challenge to pick it apart in actual play.

Yeah, that's a good example of what I mean about careful placement. The Hog Whisperer has to be deployed within 2" of both Warpigs and Old Major to pull this off, which probably means all three pigs lined up on the edge of the deployment zone, with the Whisperer behind them. Major then pushes both Warpigs 4" forward, and doesn't move. When he reactivates, he can walk forward up to 5", push one of the Warpigs 4", and presumably push the Whisperer towards himself... but he'll have to do that carefully, in a way that doesn't block LoS between the Whisperer and the lead pig, otherwise it will be subject to Set'er Off. That most likely means the front Warpig can't get the full benefit of the 4" push, because they'll need to be going partially sideways to see the Whisperer. A small nudge from the enemy at that point should put the Warpig out of LoS or range of the Whisperer, which would be bad news for Som'er, the Banjonista, etc. Even if the Pork Whisper'n aura is maintained on both pigs, one of them is at most 4" outside its deployment zone, and the other is probably about 7". If you want to deny both pigs their entire first activation and the Major's aura, you just need to stay >22" away from the enemy deployment zone (>18" will deny at least one pig an activation). One round of charges each from the pigs is still very nasty, but it's not crew-destroying (they could get up to 6 attacks each, depending on how they choose targets), and the Gremlins don't really seem to have a plan for what to do if they don't slaughter the enemy crew beyond recovery on Turn 1. Alternatively, the Guild really shouldn't have too much trouble projecting enough force to kill a Df 5 Wd 9 model that's just sitting 7-8" outside its deployment zone, waiting for the rest of its crew to do card-draw stuff.

It's definitely something I'd need to experience on the table in order to see how the placement worked, and how close the pigs would normally get before starting their rampage. They have Wk 5, Cg 8 and 1" so they're not going to be more than 14" away without wasting their whole first activation. An additional quirk of the list is that the Warpigs either need to be within 2" of a Gremlin or more than 9" from the nearest friendly non-Pig in order to Walk, if there aren't any enemies within 9" - the positioning of models in the Gremlin crew would require a fair bit of practice, I think, and any attacks that move enemy models around are likely to disrupt that careful placement. I don't think you'd need to push and activate the Nurse as a chain, though - one of the major issues with the setup is that the Warpigs lose a lot of their effectiveness if they go off "early", before all their buffs are in place and the extra cards are drawn. You should have quite a few activations available to do some counter-setup.

Um, this poll is missing the best dog in Malifaux: Iggy Pup. I cannot let this stand.

I feel like this list has a ton of hard counters across various factions, since it relies so heavily on the charging Warpigs for damage delivery. Anything that shuts down charging or Warpigs (especially going after their Wp before they activate) is going to give it a rough time. Someone mentioned putting it up against their local expert Levy player - I feel like the most bog-standard Levy list (with Rusty Alyce and Ashes & Dust) completely and automatically shuts this entire mechanic down, just by passively existing. Lots of alternative counters in other Factions as well. It really seems to be the Guild that struggles with this the most. It does feel like there are a few key pieces which, if removed, severely reduce the danger of the list. The bit where the Crier turns into a Gremlin and that Gremlin uses Drunk & Reckless - if you can get a shot off on that Gremlin at that point, just about anything will kill it, and you immediately deny 6 cards to the opponent's hand. Similarly, killing the Skeeter early will make it much more difficult to pull this whole thing off. Failing that, just aggressively pushing up to engage the Warpigs before they activate will drop their damage potential severely. (A bit niche, but a McMourning list with some Nurses can just medicate those pigs with Hallucinogens or Uppers, locking them down completely for the entire turn. That's probably the hardest counter I can think of in the Guild.) It's an interesting list, a bit too "all eggs in one basket" for my taste, but against an unsuspecting opponent I can see how it would be utterly devastating. It's sure generated a lot of discussion...

Cameras are sadly unable to capture just how eye-searingly pink those bases are in reality.

Modhat: I think the thread has started going in circles and stopped being productive. Anything new to add to the discussion?

I'm saying that calls to "tone him down" will not stop until he's useless. I've been playing this game for close to a decade and helping to manage this community for a good portion of that time - I have seen this happen. People hold onto their perceptions long after those perceptions have stopped being grounded in reality. Frankly, I think the idea that Sandeep is the best Master in the game is unsupported. Every other Faction has multiple Masters that are easily on his level. His inter-factional balance is, in my opinion, not a problem - it's only within the Arcanist faction that he's an auto-pick. Hence, I think bringing the other Arcanists up to his level would be a good place to start. That doesn't mean that there are no other Masters in other Factions that couldn't also use some attention. My fundamental position is that Sandeep would be a good baseline measure for how much a Master should impact the game - bringing other Masters up is better for gameplay than bringing Sandeep down, because plenty of Masters are boring and inflexible, and Sandeep is not (and I don't want to see him or any other Master become so).

Honestly, that's pretty much how this always goes. Remember when Colette was the "god-tier Master"? The complaints about Sandeep are almost exactly on par with that, and they won't stop until Sandeep is in the same condition that Colette is now. Then those same complainants will move on to Nicodem, Nellie, Titania... whoever becomes the next bugbear. That's why I want other Masters built up, not Sandeep torn down. Sandeep feels great to play! He just needs some viable competition. Colette feels awful, and nobody benefits from doing the same to Sandeep.

"Headhunter - Models that count as two drop two Markers. Models that count as two for scoring drop one."

I would suggest that the other Wave 4 Masters are strong, but they don't overshadow the rest of their Faction in the way that Sandeep does. Reva, while powerful, doesn't hold a candle to Nicodem. Nellie is great, but McCabe is an equally strong alternative in the same style of play, and the other Guild Masters gained a lot of flexibility and power in Wave 5 which can make them more appealing in some scenarios. Barrows was a poor contender against Hamelin and Jack Daw from the moment he was released. Titania is awesome, but so are Pandora and Lilith. No faction other than Arcanists has the "One Master to rule them all" problem. Of the two options you present, I'd definitely prefer to boost the Wave 1-3 Masters that are lagging behind. Wave 4 Masters are multidimensional, flexible, and work with their crews in cool ways. The same certainly can't be said of all the earlier Masters - I'd much rather see them become more interesting to play than see the good Masters stripped back and made less interesting in order to match them.

Prior to Wave 5 and the latest errata, I would have agreed strongly that Sandeep needed a downward adjustment. However, while he's still undeniably strong, I don't think he's game-breaking (and personally, I don't think he was ever the strongest Master in the game). Other Masters have been given significant power boosts through new or cheaper upgrades and models, and GG18. The problem with Sandeep (in my opinion) is that he completely eclipses everyone else in the Arcanists. That's why you're seeing so many "Sandeep players" - he's a really good choice for any scenario, and playing a single Master is easier, cheaper and more reliable under tournament conditions if you can get away with it, which he totally can. I'd suggest that a better thing to think about would be how to make the other Arcanist Masters stronger choices, to compete at Sandeep's level, rather than knocking him down to theirs. Apart from Marcus, the other Arcanists tend to suffer from an inherent lack of flexibility in their approach to the game, or in some cases (looking at Colette and Kaeris) a straight-up lack of strength. Their faction-wide errata adjustments were pretty conservative, because any adjustment would benefit Sandeep as much as any of them, but their individual adjustments were mostly pretty meek as well. Just bringing them up to par would see more variety in games, which would help address the perception that it's Sandeep in particular that's the problem.

I appreciate the thought, but in general it's better to let old threads lie still.

There's no generic way for Guild Masters to gain Reactivate. The Conflux of Judgement upgrade's Slowed Reflexes ability means that the Emissary can't gain Reactivate (or be Buried), not Justice herself (if there was a way for her to do so). I honestly don't recall the reasoning behind stopping the Emissary from Reactivating, but I'm sure someone else can explain. Death Marshal Recruiters and Aionus, for models available to the Guild. Some of Tara's Void creatures can do it too.

Lucky Draw: When this model flips one or more cards in a duel, it may heal 1 damage for each card flipped before choosing an active card. Lucky Draw: When this model chooses an active card in a duel (before Cheating Fate), it may heal 1 damage if the active card is a .

Next? Nope, that's already in the game. Check out Hoffman's new upgrade, which does exactly that. The "arms race" is a good way to describe that sort of progression, and I do think the ruleset is becoming a bit too complicated as a result, not to mention somewhat inconsistent. Models tend to have abilities based on whatever era of the arms race they were created in, and rarely get re-examined in the context of later escalations. (I would assert that Malifaux is better in that regard than many other games; X-Wing is a good example where the influence of new abilities seems completely out of hand, to my mind.)

Ah, the bittersweet sorrow of having come so close and yet fallen so far. The thought of how near I was to receiving your unqualified validation shall haunt the rest of my days.

Unfortunately, this isn't balance. It's the illusion of balance. Really, it's just variance. Adding random scoring elements could make it possible for a weak or poorly-played crew to win against a strong, well-played one. However, all that's really happening there is that control is being taken away from the players - this has the effect of making victories feel hollow, and defeats feel unfair. Taken to the extreme, imagine a game of Malifaux where you lay out the board, build and deploy your crew, and shuffle your deck. Then, both players flip a single card, and whoever flips highest immediately wins the game. Does that sound fun and engaging? Everybody has an exactly equal chance of winning, so it must be perfectly "balanced", right? Obviously nobody would play that game, but I think it demonstrates the basic principle - making the outcome less reliant on player decisions makes the game less satisfying. Ideally, you want your game to do the opposite: a player who consistently makes good decisions (including when building their crew) should have a significantly higher chance of winning than a player who makes mistakes. I'm not really sure what you mean by Malifaux having "powerful crews and weak crews"? Malifaux just has models and hiring restrictions. The way those models are combined into crews is up to the individual player - you're never forced to take a "weak" crew. I'm not even sure there's such a thing as a weak crew, just a crew that's poorly suited to the task at hand. I mean, you could probably build a crew that was poorly suited to any task, but... why would you?

Ah, didn't have my book on me so I was going by the text given in the OP, which is nothing like the actual rule.

This one's certainly interesting. I'd be inclined to suggest that you would have to choose the Bone Pile as two of the three models for Public Demonstration. If we're pursuing the line that counting as two models means "fully, in all possible ways," then that would include for the purpose of selecting models for the scheme. (We then get into the same argument again over whether it counts 6ss or 12ss towards the required total, just like in Ours. That needs official clarification, IMO - I don't think it can be resolved either way by reference to the rules, though I'd be inclined to count the cost twice.)

Happy for you all to continue the discussion about differences in the approach to rules and errata across different game systems, but it's gone off-topic for this thread. If you've got more to say on that topic, start a new post about it!