Math Mathonwy

I agree with Malal that a fixed list approach won't work. For example, if the Strategy is Reckoning or there is Make Them Suffer in the Scheme pool, you don't want to take three Young LaCroix along. You can build a core and then vary the support elements around it and do pretty well. This is how it usually goes when you're starting (the game or a new faction). Ophelia is nice in that she can do any Strategy and expect to do pretty well. Sue is a nice Merc. I'm not sure that focusing on Burning is really viable but he packs a mean punch and the extra protection from Ca attacks can be golden. Obeying (and similar effects) Gremlins is often very nice since the opponent can use Dumb Luck to hurt both the Obeyed Gremlin as well as his target and The Man in Black can offer some protection from that. Slop Haulers are absolutely golden and I take two into 90% of Gremlin games. The healing is really good but even without it they would be worth the 5SS price. The Defense debuff is really nice, they have OK damage tracks and Bayou Two-card rocks.

Ah, sorry, I wrote that badly. I meant the skin where it meets the bandages, not the bandages themselves. The blue darklining is on a wide area and again should be darker. That's good advice!

Gremlins have Stilts that can give extra Ht thus getting Ht3 for 30mm base models but other than that, I can't think of any. That is really funny, btw.

I think that the purple to green is a good look (and have used it myself on occasion). On principle I like the idea that the purple gets bluer deeper into the shadows but it should still get darker as well. You should deepen the shadows in the butt crack and the edges of the bandages for example. Also, the lining is rather thick on the bandage edges. Darkening it will help but when going for this sort of darklining approach, you need to keep the lines thin or else it will look weird. You should also somehow bring the face into focus more - right now the mini lacks a focal point. As a complete aside, I was reminded of a certain painting video tutorial that you would probably like. It's in French, unfortunately, but the magic happens at about nine and a half minutes in. And it's some damn mind-blowing magic! Worth a watch, definitely: http://kws.figurines-tv.com/index.php?mod=articles&ac=commentaires&id=115

Here's a link to the tutorial (it's about painting dark skin and by far the best tutorial on the subject I've seen):http://jinn.fr/tutoriaux-peinture-figurines/peau-bamaka-en-tabletop/ Oh, and in French, so this might be a better link: https://translate.google.fi/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjinn.fr%2Ftutoriaux-peinture-figurines%2Fpeau-bamaka-en-tabletop%2F&edit-text=&act=url

As a side note, some people do this in two hours: This is Jinn's idea of tabletop quality

I like reliability. No over-reliance on certain suits, no insane swingyness. I like mobility. Slow plodding, especially if the Master is a buffer, is not as interesting as a highly mobile Master. Movement offers a tremendous amount of choice so being fast is awesome. Which brings me to my next point. I like options and meaningful decisions. Meaningful as in not offering a clear-cut "best move" but rather a slew of options. I like good defenses simply because it's annoying when a Master dies unexpectedly. I like underdogs because challenge is good and tight games where I play good are the best.

Hell Dorado Sha Ren Zhe https://cipher-studios.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_44&products_id=669 Smog 1888 Fu Manchu http://www.smartmaxstore.com/fu-manchu-en.htm Kensei Shinigami http://shop.zenitminiatures.es/product.php?id_product=210 Kensei Baku! http://shop.zenitminiatures.es/product.php?id_product=220

Zoraida and Brewmaster might also be funny - everyone into the Aura of Suck. Nurses should also be interesting when the opponent has a severely lowered Wp.

Of course there are! My original claim was, and I quote, "Besides, a 35SS game of Malifaux is likely more balanced than several other games at their designated points level." I'm not saying that Mailfaux at 35SS if more balanced than every other game - that would be patently silly. Especially since, even though I've played quite a few games, I haven't played nearly all of them. One of the recurring claims throughout the thread has been that 35SS games are too imbalanced to be any fun no matter if there are Summoners present or not. I disagreed with this and provided evidence (such as it is) against it. I must be writing somehow really disjointingly and confusingly and for that I apologize! The other common option is to ban Summoning altogether. That affects Somer more severely than the other suggestions. As for Somer, he is a fantastically flexible Master who can do all sorts of very powerful things. Yet often he opts for his Summoning which is kinda telling that, even though severely limited, his summoning is still pretty powerful. Outactivation is powerful thing and all in all extra significant models are especially good in small games. Not saying that Somer is especially problematic but I don't think that he is especially crippled by the suggested limitations nor that he is a weak choice.

Let me quote you: This is simply not true. There are plenty of skirmish games which work in a wide points range, that is, with more or fewer minis. Malifaux isn't one of these, mostly due to the Strategies and Schemes system, Summoning and the power of the Masters. Some other games are like this - Eden for example breaks down completely if you deviate even a bit from the standard size. Yet there are games like Infinity or, heck, Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game (or whatever the full title was - though its model count is at the high end of skirmish games) that work fine even when you drop down to one third of the normal points limit. I like to think that I have pretty vast experience with different skirmish games. On my minis painting desk there are currently models from seven different skirmish minis games (Carnevale, 1650 A Capa & Espada, Arcworlde, Malifaux, Hell Dorado, Eden, and Infinity) and that is still just a part of my repertoire. I'm not saying this to brag, just to give you an idea that I really do know what I'm talking about here. I think that 35SS Malifaux is better balanced than the current version of WHFB at 2400 points (or the current 40k at 1850). That is what I meant but I didn't want to name WHFB simply because I find it distasteful to diss other games and because WHFB does things that no other game does and is a fun game in its own right. Its balance, "out of the box", simply is atrocious. You are free to disagree with this statement, naturally. No, I was not offended - apologies if I sounded terse in my reply - I was in a bit of a hurry to write it, unfortunately. I think that this is an interesting conversation and there have been good points presented and nice quite a few very nice suggestions as well.

Not to mention how it can affect, e.g., Deliver a Message or Plant Explosives or such.

I played quite a few small games with limited model pools to choose from as part of a Slow grow league I took part in during the fall. I catalogued my games here:http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/103373-the-amazing-adventures-of-slow-growing-guild-mcmourning-in-helsinki/ They were fun, tight and tactical. Not perfectly balanced, no, but close enough to be fun. There were no summoners present in those games but what they do is, often, break the balance badly enough to result in a non-fun game. This is all simply based on my experience as well as those of others. There's no grand theory behind it all and I do agree that, on paper, it would seem that Levy or Vikkies or other super deadly Masters would also result in a no-fun game. Can be and maybe those need some looking into as well - who knows. But it is possible to tackle one problem at a time. And this thread's title is kind of a dead giveaway on what this particular thread is about, don't you think? I never said anything like that. Fetid Strumpet claimed that having a very strict sweet spot points level is an intrinsic of skirmish games. This is patently untrue and I disagreed with that. Furthermore I have said several times that Malifaux isn't balanced at low levels so I have absolutely no idea how you could come to the conclusion that I was saying something like that. Utterly baffling. Won't happen, sorry. Beginners playing with starters, Slow grow leagues, small tournaments - that is going to happen. You don't have to like it but it is useless to try to fight it.

Possible proxies (all are of suitable size): Bushido Wraith http://www.bushido-thegame.com/catalog/wraith Hell Dorado Sha Ren Zhe https://cipher-studios.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_44&products_id=669 Hell Dorado Charon https://cipher-studios.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_44&products_id=680

We shall have to agree to disagree if you think that losing a Henchman is essentially the same as losing a Henchman while the opponent gains a Flesh Constrtuct. In 35SS games while still doing the Strategy and the other Scheme? You are probably a way better player than I or anyone I've faced in small games, then. I do realize the intention but I think that the balance breaks further if you touch the turn limit. I would be interested in hearing about your experiences if you end up testing it, however. This is just theorizing, after all, so maybe I'm wrong. I disagree. There's plenty of control models (what are Belles if not control models?), plenty of shooters, plenty of meleeists and plenty of supporters. Sure, they aren't naturally nearly as powerful as Masters but on the Summoning front there's a couple of Henchmen and then some weird ones like Taxidermist or Pathfinder. That's far, far fewer than of any other archetype. I have been very vocal in those "Summoning is too powerful" threads adding insight into why it seems that way but isn't. I assure you, I have no such "common perception." But it seems that lots of people who have no experience or interest in smaller games are coming to this thread to shoot down the ideas for some reason that I can't quite comprehend. Not aimed at you specifically, Kadeton (you had a suggestion, after all, though I disagreed with it), mind.

Losing a Bayou Gremlin vs losing it and the opponent getting a Flesh Construct is a pretty big swing in a 35SS game. Distract, MAke Them Suffers and Cursed Object become trickier. ALITS, Breakthrough, and Power Ritual become a lot more difficult. Bodyguard breaks somewhat completely. Off the top of my head. The real problem is that if your summons bring you 20 extra AP into a game, it will affect a 35SS game a lot more than a 50SS game simply because the increase is much more pronounced. That's it, as far as I'm concerned. The effect is further enhanced because there are very few powerful Summoners outside of Masters. Every other role is well represented in non-Masters except powerful summoning. This is incorrect. There are skirmish games that scale nicely up and down. Infinity for example is usually played at 300 points but works for 100 as well as for 500. This doesn't make any sense. Let's say that currently the power level of Summoners is 1000, the power level of killy Masters is 600 and the power level of the other Masters is 300. If we handicap the Summoners so that they operate at a level below 1000, then that doesn't magically increase the difference between killy Masters and other Masters. That's like saying that any balance tweaks, no matter what they are, are always irrelevant since there will always be something that is the most powerful thing in the game. Of course you can. I'm not saying that this here balances the system (it doesn't) but claiming this as some kind of axiomatic truth is completely incorrect. For a trivial disproof of this idea, imagine a 50SS game with the Malifaux rules in tact except that when you Summon a model, you get three times as many. Now, change it so that you don't and you get Have you played small games? I have and they have been tactical and enjoyable as long as no Summoners are present. Sure, they aren't as well balanced as 50SS games, no doubt about that, but they are balanced enough to be quite playable.

Are you saying that it is a false perception? I think that this is a very bad idea. Many of the Schemes are already really difficult due to smaller model counts, limiting the turn limit further would make them utterly impossible. Besides, this would affect all the Masters and crews wildly when the problematic ones really are the Summoners.

I really am having great difficulty understanding the viewpoint of "banning them is better than changing something about them". No one is saying that small games are balanced. All (or at least nearly all) agree that summoners are too good at that points level. So what's the worst that could happen if you tinker with them? They might become too weak or not weak enough? How is that worse than banning them? The games won't be balanced anyhow! They will be beer and pretzels and having fun, not for deciding who is the best among the best. If I want to play a Summoner, I would much rather take a handicap than be told that no way. Besides, a 35SS game of Malifaux is likely more balanced than several other games at their designated points level.

Categorically refusing to use house rules even if they make for a better experience is silly. Furthermore, if you're looking for a challenge and a good game as opposed to winning at all costs, I think that going for the best option every time is super boring. I'm now looking forward to someone linking to that one Sirlin article and not taking into account that miniature gaming hobby consists of much more than just the actual game and includes things like models and painting and background and whatever else.

Eight is certainly enough! You can probably make do with four in most normal cases. Summoning with Ulix and the Sow is somewhat resource intensive and the Sow is so wonderfully destructive that you likely won't focus on Summoning too much. As for mixing the old with the new - well, the old ones certainly have their own aesthetic. To be polite. OTOH I like the fact that they don't look like normal earth-side piglets (who are just sorta randomly more dangerous than professional guardsmen when it comes to combat). Don't get me wrong, I do like the new Piglets, I just hoped that they would be somehow "wyrd". Anyway, mixing them up - well, it is going to look a bit weird. I don't really see a problem and since you most likely won't be using more than four most of the time so it won't really be a problem. I wouldn't suggest buying extra boxes of the plastic Piglets. Or you could make the old ones into Stuffed versions (they certainly look somewhat Undead) by adding explosives to them. Or give them wings and maybe a proboscis and then use them as Skeeters. ...maybe mount them on hellscape bases with snow on top?

You can buy those helper models in order to have enough for the first two turns. The one exceptions are Waifs and Seishin. As for Waifs, I really don't see a problem since Levy is so incredibly powerful in small games already that hindering him isn't really all that bad. But Seishin are sorta more difficult. Still, I think that that rule will lead to better games than outright banning all Summoning, so there is that.

How many times have you won the Ini flip because of that +2? Meaning ones that you would've lost (or tied) without it?

Using stones to draw the two extra cards at the start of the turn.

Rather disappointed in this one. The detail is somehow not at all up to Wyrd's usual standards. Very flat and coarse. And the metal diaper is idiotic. The pose is very cool, though, and I like the general concept (especially the mouth). But yeah, not nearly as good as I hoped.

Rail Golem and Howard are both mobile and killy. Howard has better Ml while the Golem has a positive twist. On a statistical basis, they are fairly even, but since they are important models with high damage output, you often might end up cheating and then the higher Ml stat is better. Most importantly, however, Howard doesn't require the Tomes to shine properly. Rail Golem eats up into those precious Tomes when going to town and you often have other models starving for those cards. So yeah, they are different but highly comparable with the biggest difference being that Howard doesn't require as many resources to make him shine. As for how to abuse Rail Golem with Hoffman, this report goes into detail (though the execution fails due to bad luck) - but the general idea is that after some buffing, the "Golem is ML7, Df 6, defensive +2, Casting 8, and has burning 2 (3 when he activates), and is Fast and has nimble": http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/103485-hoffman-vs-von-schill-the-rail-golem-missile/