Hoffman cyborg is amazing!

[lame0]

 So I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about Hoffman and I think both his new upgrades are awesome. (Long flight to London lol)

First off this is the list I’m more or less sold on.
50 SS Guild Crew
Hoffman + 4 Pool
 - Pneumatic Upgrades (1)
 - On Site Assimiliation (2)
 - Improved Harness (1)
Mechanical Attendant (2)
McTavish (11)
 - A Debt To The Guild (1)
Brutal Emissary (10)
 - Conflux of Amalgamation (0)
Burt Jebsen (8)
 - A Debt To The Guild (1)
Brutal Effigy (4)
Wastrel (4)
Wastrel (4)

The tech that I’ve found thus far is the wastrel is freaking amazing with cyborg. It’s so strong because you make it a cybrog and then use it’s (0) action to get a modification and then use his (2) action to pass cyborg and nimble to Burt. Then Burt can use the (0) modification again to get targeting system. So turn one he can go 3ap+nimble. Turn two it can be even more crazy with hoffman giving Burt fast and a (1) ap no trigger action. What this does is let you get an absurd turn two with Burt: if you use targeting system+ debt to the guild+ the 4ap+ nimble you are going to erase whatever you need to get rid of with (nimble +4x ap on 5/6/7 attacks).

Similarly McTavish can do basically the same thing but even with just debt to the guild he’s strong. Also with armor from the wastrel he gets the survivability he needs without wasting his (0). Turn two when you give him fast and a (1) action with Hoffman he is the perfect free power loop target. If he get power loop next to the brutal emissary he will also basically delete anything turn two. With positive attack flips + a 3/5/7 damage spread with 4 ap and 14 inch ignore cover he is just dirty. Also the free ap with no triggers really makes this 4.75 ap because his range makes it very usable (at very worst he can give himself a scheme marker).

So outside of the gremlin duo this list is still full of power. Hoffman doesn’t have a charge range but he has a 18 inch engagement range due to the brutal effigy. The effigy can walk twice and then accomplice into Hoffman. Hoffman can then follow up with his (0) action 6 inch place so that he gets 4ap of 3/4/6 and potentially some ignore armor. Not a bad option for the support master switching to an all out attack when the opponent isn’t ready. 

 the wastrels are pretty strong in their own right for 4ss  models. With the last cyborg upgrade they get basically all the triggers they want for cycle and have a pretty great positive sh5 1/3/4 gun that gets a free focus as it continues to hit. This guy is pretty decent to make fast with Hoffman because during it’s activation it can (1)shoot then focus (2) shoot which is pretty darn respectable damage for a 4ss minion. With the (2) focus shot you can pass the cyborg to the other wastrel or heal another model (which is good because Hoffman's fast costs 2 wounds.) Also you can technically turn hoffman into a cyborg to give him/ give himself modifications but I think it might be just a bad use of cyborg.(though a full turn of free rams for machine puppet seems interesting)

One note about the brutal emissary. I know a bunch of you don’t love him but he does a couple of great things. He makes scrap markers with his (0) which is great, his box is pretty decent and can eliminate models from the game by unburying an important enemy model at the edge of the board. Also he heals himself pretty well which most models in guild don’t do also he can heal other models decently so that's nice. Although his attacks are a little lacking I think he still makes it because of his flexibility also he has one of the best shooting attack spreads in guild 2/4/6 which is the same as McTavish and it ignores cover( plus it has critical strike and the weird never bluff trigger). Either way he helps support, is a construct and most importantly puts down a scrap marker to get Burt + McTavish their upgrades turn one.

An other piece of tech I found was the field reporter which with cyborg and osa can make it so that Hoffman can have the suite he needs each turn (usually rams). Issue for me is that I prefer to get the setup complete for turn two using two wastrels than have the reporter. I still think it’s good tech to point out and could be useful and would totally make the cut if I wasn’t trying to make Burt & McTavish robots.

Overall I think with this set up Hoffman becomes one of the best master in guild due to his never fail armor bubble, machine puppet with rams and cyborg on two mercs. (Nellie has longer range and another very decent kit...main reason I still think I still like her more is the activation control).  

Let me know what you guys think. 

[Ludvig]

Isn't targeting system the one with rams on all duels? That says guild construct only and Burt is a gremlin model even if hired into a guild crew.

[4thstringer]

dammit does this mean I have to assemble my alt-wastrel which has been sitting gathering dust for years?

 

[Legislat]

Omg, I think this is not intended.

Wording on Cyborg: this upgrade may not be discarded by actions or abilities.

If we are picky about wording then you actually may remove it.

Targeting systems can only be attached to guild constructs. Armor and Nimble upgrades will require you to discard a scrap marker on 6' when you will attach it to new targets, but you can do it... Seems like a bit too much effort though. Double the cost.

[trikk]

2 hours ago, Legislat said:

Omg, I think this is not intended.

Wording on Cyborg: this upgrade may not be discarded by actions or abilities.

If we are picky about wording then you actually may remove it.

Targeting systems can only be attached to guild constructs. Armor and Nimble upgrades will require you to discard a scrap marker on 6' when you will attach it to new targets, but you can do it... Seems like a bit too much effort though. Double the cost.

Yep, you can`t remove discard it from the Wastrel so its all fine and the cyborg Burt is not allowed. You can give him nimble/interact/armor but it costs you 2 scrap (apart from the interact) markers.

[lame0]

13 minutes ago, trikk said:

Yep, you can`t remove discard it from the Wastrel so its all fine and the cyborg Burt is not allowed. You can give him nimble/interact/armor but it costs you 2 scrap (apart from the interact) markers.

Discard and remove are two different things. 

[trikk]

29 minutes ago, lame0 said:

Discard and remove are two different things. 

I disagree. Discarding and removing are exactly the same thing ruleswise but I`m open to interpretation why you think its different.

[Gnomezilla]

I'm not sure about the wastrel, but the reporterina is a good find, for those days when you absolutely positively have to ignore armor.

[Ludvig]

Discard and remove is the same to me. Haven't seen them both clearly defined as different things so they sound like different words describing thr same thing.

[lame0]

If I told someone that my ability prevented removes I don't think it would hold up at all. I have to say I really don't see how they are the same. That's like comparing hoffman's trigger armor equivalent to armor it does the same thing but they are two different effects but ignore armor wouldn't ignore Hoffman's trigger.

[trikk]

20 minutes ago, lame0 said:

If I told someone that my ability prevented removes I don't think it would hold up at all. I have to say I really don't see how they are the same. That's like comparing hoffman's trigger armor equivalent to armor it does the same thing but they are two different effects but ignore armor wouldn't ignore Hoffman's trigger.

So you`re saying if Cyborg would say "this upgrade cannot be removed" it would be possible to discard it?

Remove and discard are synonyms and they both are not game terms which means you apply the English language to them which means "get rid of"

[Ludvig]

8 hours ago, lame0 said:

If I told someone that my ability prevented removes I don't think it would hold up at all. I have to say I really don't see how they are the same. That's like comparing hoffman's trigger armor equivalent to armor it does the same thing but they are two different effects but ignore armor wouldn't ignore Hoffman's trigger.

It reminds me more of ending/removing conditions which is the same thing. I don't see where the rules makes these things functionally different and why I shouldn't just read them as different words for the same thing. How do you discard an upgrade without removing it from the stat card you discarded it from?

The Hoffman rule makes it clear you are not getting armor for Hoffman but using a numeric of a condition/ability on another model. It's like McMournings expunge or performers similar action which uses the numeric of poison on the target but the damage is not in fact caused by poison.

You found some really neat tricks with reporters and the other wastrel tricks but I don't think you will convince people about your discard trick.

[lame0]

Personally I think its different because as of yet the wastrel is the only model I have found that has remove an upgrade(McCabe has discard, hoffman has discard an upgrade and Hans has discard an upgrade). Honestly I think this very well could have been done on purpose to make the wastrel a good unit with a master. Let me know if there are others out there with remove to see if there is some level of similarity.

[Ludvig]

Shenlong, JackDaw and Kamaitachi also interact with upgrades so have a look at them. I don't have my books.

[Myyrä]

7 hours ago, lame0 said:

Personally I think its different because as of yet the wastrel is the only model I have found that has remove an upgrade(McCabe has discard, hoffman has discard an upgrade and Hans has discard an upgrade). Honestly I think this very well could have been done on purpose to make the wastrel a good unit with a master. Let me know if there are others out there with remove to see if there is some level of similarity.

I don't see how it being the only model with that wording is evidence that it should work differently. I'm also 100% sure the Hoffman upgrade that came out 3 years later had literally 0 effect on the wording of Wastrel's action.

[Regelridderen]

16 hours ago, lame0 said:

Personally I think its different because as of yet the wastrel is the only model I have found that has remove an upgrade(McCabe has discard, hoffman has discard an upgrade and Hans has discard an upgrade). Honestly I think this very well could have been done on purpose to make the wastrel a good unit with a master. Let me know if there are others out there with remove to see if there is some level of similarity.

Trouble is, there isn't a game definition of those words, and in plain english, they're basically synonyms. So until a point, where there is made a clear distinction, chances are, that saying otherwise will only label you as 'that guy', 'obnoxious git' and/or 'rules lawyer' in the eyes of other players. So there really is no point in being 'right', when all you gain from it is endless discussions, and opponents shying away from playing you. 

Of course, this can be all well and accepted in your local meta- but chances are, that when you go beyond it ( like a tournament or online ), this 'house rule' will only give you trouble and bad games. 

[trikk]

19 hours ago, lame0 said:

Personally I think its different because as of yet the wastrel is the only model I have found that has remove an upgrade(McCabe has discard, hoffman has discard an upgrade and Hans has discard an upgrade). Honestly I think this very well could have been done on purpose to make the wastrel a good unit with a master. Let me know if there are others out there with remove to see if there is some level of similarity.

Like I mentioned. If Cyborg had "this upgrade cannot be removed" would you think that Hoffman would be able to discard it? If someone would tell thatcto me I'd consider it a joke personally.

 

A good analogy is "This condition cannot be removed" and Johan "end all conditions on target model". Ending a condition is treated as removing it as you can't use Johan on Ohh Glowy

[lame0]

11 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I don't see how it being the only model with that wording is evidence that it should work differently. I'm also 100% sure the Hoffman upgrade that came out 3 years later had literally 0 effect on the wording of Wastrel's action.

That wording was considered when they just made this upgrade. Also it should be noted even McCabe has a discard which to me reflects that they wanted to differentiate it. The ability cyborg says it can't be discarded it doesn't say it can't be removed (which only this model has the wording of). It is literally the only model that removes an upgrade not discards it. I've looked at everything I can think of. For the second time now on something I've found I would like extra clarity from the design/errata team. I as usual won't use it unless I get clarity because its not worth the brain damage of explaining/discussing the rule and I'm not the type to want to argue that on the table. (On the internet sure but at the table I prefer a fun game where there aren't any hurt feelings/bad blood)

I will say though even if the wastrel can't give Burt or another model cyborg....it can still be great. Hoffman, santiago with cyborg (with companion), Francisco, Ryle or the brutal emissary are pretty interesting. By making the wastrel a cyborg you can give any of the above targeting system every turn and they can use it every turn (which if they equipped it themselves they wouldn't be able to do.) Also this is per wastrel so you could hypothetically take two wastrels and two targets.

I think this is the best with Hoffman because it would mean Hoffman could generate 8 ap a turn for other models through machine spirit without wasting a single stone (could be crazy good).

I also think Santiago with cyborg could be decent next to the brutal effigy with power loop because if he is above 4 wounds he has a single positive flip and below 4 wounds he has a double positive and sh 8. This gives him a good chance at a mask for a second/third/fourth shot otherwise you could fall back on targeting system + then an extremely high chance at another ram. So either 2/3/4 + another attack for masks or 3/4/5-4/5/6 from rams. With diestro this can get pretty absurd. 

Fransisco is also good because with Wade in + power loop + targeting system he does a ton of damage shooting or attacking and then end the activation by using using the ram from targeting system to heal.(very easy heal and easy 3/4/5 3-4x attacks if you take hair trigger).

Right now I'm thinking:

50 SS Guild Crew
Hoffman + 3 Pool
 - Pneumatic Upgrades (1)
 - On Site Assimiliation (2)
 - Improved Harness (1)
Mechanical Attendant (2)
McTavish (11)
 - A Debt To The Guild (1)
Francisco Ortega (8)
 - Wade In (1)
 - Hermanos de Armas (1)
Brutal Emissary (10)
 - Conflux of Amalgamation (0)
Brutal Effigy (4)
Wastrel (4)
Wastrel (4)

This makes the whole list constructs except McTavish. I think it's a toss up between McTavish and Santiago but I do like that McTavish is more stand alone (though accomplice into Hoffman into 2x companion sounds freaking painful turn two). Give him armor or nimble and he does his job even better. I also really like that every model in the list can heal (except Hoffman and the mechanical attendant.) Franc can easily shoot 3-4times, McTavish can shoot 3 times & the brutal emissary can attack 3 times.

Turn one give out the upgrades you want and move up (nimble & armor on McTavish or frank).

From turn two and onward Hoffman just gives  4 of the constructs 4x non trigger actions and 4x fast. This gives the crew the extra umph it needs to overcome the ap shortage it has. The wastrels job are to cycle for good cards (because it's free and you get a few per turn) as well as give frank/ Hoffman/ Brutal Emissary rams or healing.

I really love that this crew is great from up close and afar. With everything having shooting with decent range(1x 14" 1x 12" 4x 10" 1x8 inch) and two of the strong models ignoring cover shooting can be deadly. In cc Hoffman & frank shine but the brutal and McTavish can hold their own.

Also if you pass Hoffman armor+1 and put power loop on either brutal you have a def 6 wp 6 master with armor +2 that can't be ignored(or power loop frank and then he's ml 7 def 5). That is quite the tank and his 3/4/6 4x attacks can't be ignored. Tbh I think he does lady J better than Lady J. And I'm starting to see that this is Hoffman's real power.

I like that this list can turn on a dime and just say I'm ready to engage. I think if I wanted to be more aggressive from the get go I would switch frank+brutal emissary out for Burt with a debt to the guild & a Peacekeeper (giving the peacekeeper nimble+extra rams). But I think that's a tactical choice.

[Ludvig]

No need to shoot with Francisco most of the time. Hoffman can make him do his place into combat and then companion into him flurrying with debt and targeting sysems. If you kill the scary thing with ap left over you can bounce over and egage something else so it can't counter-charge and put up you negatives to  attacks so Francisco lasts longer.

[lame0]

7 hours ago, Ludvig said:

No need to shoot with Francisco most of the time. Hoffman can make him do his place into combat and then companion into him flurrying with debt and targeting sysems. If you kill the scary thing with ap left over you can bounce over and egage something else so it can't counter-charge and put up you negatives to  attacks so Francisco lasts longer.

Maybe I'm spoiled with Gremlins but a 9 inch engagement range isn't that far. Anything less than 12 seems light.(though nothing stops you from getting it to 14 and giving frank fast using machine spirit twice so you do make a good point.) 

Either way it seems to me from the looks of it Hoffman is better than McCabe now. Hoffman has a larger engagement range, has more ap, gets free movement, with the wastrel he give out way more upgrades better, he's also way more survivable vs 95% of what's out there, and he's just a much higher force multiplier (modifications /cc /machine spirit). Also as far as I can see the brutal effigy is perfect with him giving him a 10 inch move into accomplice and healing him for somewhere between 3-4 and maybe giving him a card. (Also in a pinch if Hoffman needed more heals & cards he could always fear not the sword himself so that he heals for two everytime he damages an enemy and draws two when he kills something).

I mean he could even give Nellie a run for the money lol.

This is the list I'm gona try out as soon as I get back to the States

50 SS Guild Crew
Hoffman + 3 Pool
 - Improved Harness (1)
 - On Site Assimiliation (2)
 - Pneumatic Upgrades (1)
Mechanical Attendant (2)
McTavish (11)
 - A Debt To The Guild (1)
Francisco Ortega (8)
 - Wade In (1)
 - A Debt To The Guild (1) (thanks @Ludvig)
Brutal Emissary (10)
 - Conflux of Amalgamation (0)
Brutal Effigy (4)
Wastrel (4)
Wastrel (4)

 

[Ludvig]

Fear not the sword is not a stacking condition so you can't have it more than once.

I also think Hoffman is very strong. He is still annoyed by hard to kill but in the grand scheme of things he might have McCabe beat. McCabe is very ap-efficient with his buffs still which is nice.

 

[trikk]

I think the whole Wastrel schitck doesn`t acknowledge that each time you put the nimble/armor up you need to discard a scrap marker which makes it quite resource intensive but it does seem fine overall and not super uber insanely good.

[lame0]

6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Fear not the sword is not a stacking condition so you can't have it more than once.

I also think Hoffman is very strong. He is still annoyed by hard to kill but in the grand scheme of things he might have McCabe beat. McCabe is very ap-efficient with his buffs still which is nice.

 

True..would of been cool but w.e not really something I was Gona use besides a super corner case.

[lame0]

41 minutes ago, trikk said:

I think the whole Wastrel schitck doesn`t acknowledge that each time you put the nimble/armor up you need to discard a scrap marker which makes it quite resource intensive but it does seem fine overall and not super uber insanely good.

It does that's why I use Hoffman+ the brutal emissary (both make scrap markers brutal just hurts a guild model with armor for 1). Also I don't use the scrap marker heal hoffman upgrade so I don't  have this huge need for them. After turn one I don't expect to need to use those upgrades till something dies the wastrel is really just handing out a full activation of rams to Francisco, the brutal emissary or Hoffman. That modification doesn't need scrap and instead of being able to only use targeting system every other turn on one model I can use it two-three times a turn on three different models. (Frank uses targeting system from turn one. -> Wastrel passes it to hoffman -> Hoffman goes uses it does a ton of machine spirits -> wastrel puts it on brutal emissary -> brutal uses Targeting system and does a boat load of damage.) Also your not locked into only handing out Targeting system...they can still shoot with built in + flips 2-3times a turn (free focus after the first hit as well) and cycle away all the unwanted cards in hand for good stuff. Or you know they can heal.

Also the way I see it I don't think I need to pass those upgrades on that often because the emissary, McTavish, frank and hoffman are not dieing that often and likely the same model won't have both...but sometimes it will I guess.

(Ex: Nimble armor+2 Hoffman would be a laugh but probably I'd put nimble on something else)

Btw Hoffman being one of the best masters in guild is great because now I feel like guild can really think at crew selection and out crew select the opponent instead of basically running the same 1-2 Nellie lists that people are ready for. (Countering out ignore armor literally gives me bad dreams as a gremlin main.)

[Legislat]

40 minutes ago, lame0 said:

Hoffman goes uses it does a ton of machine spirits

You can't actually do this. Targetting systems improve only MI and SH actions.