SS Cache discussion

[Erik1978]

I heard that all Ripples of fate Masters got a 4 SS cache, perhaps because that was just the easy solution or to make sure they had some appeal when people had to decide to buy them or not?

I played Leveticus against Sandeep, which I often do, and we discussed the choices of Cache for the Masters. We couldn't quite figure why Sandeep needed 4 compared to Leveticus' 1 or (Collettes 2, for that matter which is his other Master) since Sandeep is quite the powerful Master.

Anyone know what the Wyrd team are taking into consideration when deciding this Cache? Von Schill's Cache of 1 also seems a bit low compared to almost all other Masters who, until perhaps Broken Promised, were considered stronger that Von Schill.

I bet there is some thought behind this, perhaps skills, damage output etc. but I can't quite see it myself. Any wise people out there with knowledge to share?   

[Artiee]

Should be posted in the Malifaux Discussion forum.

[Erik1978]

Can I change that now without double posting?

[Thottbot]

1 hour ago, Erik1978 said:

Can I change that now without double posting?

tag a mod i guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

also i have noticed that all arcanists masters have 3-4 cache, maybe for the lore reason that they have alot of soulstones in their faction? more than the others?

[Ludvig]

It was in part tied to lore I think. Outcasts were all supposed to have a cache of 2 I think. Levi got his errata'd. I think it's supposed to compensate for power or how hungry they are for stones too.

[Artiee]

Here is Justin's info on Leveticus when it was changed.

 

Quote

 

Now, on to Leveticus. For years we have all heard rumblings that Leveticus was too powerful, and after a careful consideration of the data and feedback, Wyrd agrees. Leveticus is a Master who was excellent at dealing damage, nearly impossible to kill, highly mobile, and had excellent options in terms of Crew. A few of those things are expected on a Master, but all of it combined was simply too much. We have chosen to reduce the amount of damage which Leveticus is capable of by limiting his Channel Ability to once per Turn and making it grant the Focused Condition. His Cache was also dropped by 1. This will greatly limit the amount of damage he is able to deal since he can no longer rely on positive flips to avoid cheating, get around cover, or increase his damage for every Attack.

We chose to limit his damage because one of the aspects at which he was excellent needed to be toned down in order to balance him. Reducing his survivability would go against his well-established theme of being undying, so that was ruled out. Limiting his Crew options would not be respectful of the real-money purchases of Outcast players, so that was ruled out as well. Limiting his mobility was an option, but likely would not have done enough on its own and would have necessitated further, radical, change and we wanted to keep the model as close to its core concept as possible. As such, reducing his damage-dealing capabilities was the best solution, and Channel was the most obvious target.

Leveticus is still the wily old scavenger we all know and love. He still eternally dies and comes back. He still fields abominations and necromancies from multiple Factions, and he will still stalk the board removing your opponent's weaker pieces. His role on the battlefield will just change slightly. You may find that, after the errata, it is better to have Leveticus finish off already damaged models (which he is excellent at, due to the wide array of defensive abilities he still ignores) rather than having him deal the bulk of the damage. In fact, you may even find that activating him later in the Turn is more advantageous as he can pick off weakened targets. I feel that this is actually even more thematic to his role as a scavenger.

 

 

[Erik1978]

Makes sense that Arcanist in general would have more stones, Lore-wise but in terms of game balance I find it a bit odd with Sandeep as the grand example.

[Bengt]

Faction - Average - Median

Gremlins - 3.625 - 4

Arcanists - 3.5 - 3.5

Resurrectionists - 3.5 - 3.5

Guild - 3.25 - 3.5

Neverborn - 3.25 - 3.5

Ten Thunders - 2.5 - 2.5

Outcasts - 2 - 1.5

While Gremlins have the largest caches, Arcanists, Resurrectionists, Guild, and Neverborn all very close behind (the vast majority in all five factions have 3 or 4). I think it's more accurate to point to TT and Outcasts as having low caches than any faction having large ones. Outcast really stand out with mostly 1s, the average is only raised by Parker and Tara (the filthy resser).

Asami has a cache of 3 btw.

[WWHSD]

Instead of looking at Levi, compare Sandeep's cache to that of other summoning Masters that require a suit (that's not built-in) to summon. I'd suspect that they'll all be in the same ballpark.

It seems like if I summon 5 times in a game that I'll need to stone to get 3 of them off.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Levi also gets free waifs. If you like figure that each waif actually costs 2 SS and Levi's cache is actually 5.

[Math Mathonwy]

8 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Instead of looking at Levi, compare Sandeep's cache to that of other summoning Masters that require a suit (that's not built-in) to summon. I'd suspect that they'll all be in the same ballpark.

It seems like if I summon 5 times in a game that I'll need to stone to get 3 of them off.

Dreamer's Cache is 2.

But really, it looks like the Caches of the first book were made for fluff reasons while in the latter books they were used for balance. Von Schill's Cache is IMO the one in most dire need of revision.

[Bengt]

16 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Dreamer's Cache is 2.

It's 3 in the book, I can't find any errata to Dreamer. Also relevant is that when they set his cache, he had less need for suits than now (and still needs them a bit less than your average summoner).

[Bengt]

And since I have it in a spreadsheet anyway.

1 with 5

18 with 4

16 with 3

6 with 2

5 with 1

Average: 3.1

Median: 3

[Math Mathonwy]

22 minutes ago, Bengt said:

It's 3 in the book, I can't find any errata to Dreamer. Also relevant is that when they set his cache, he had less need for suits than now (and still needs them a bit less than your average summoner).

Oh wow, serves me right for not checking the book. It is 2 in the PDF cards that were released before the book (the ones with the "final official" stamp on them). Didn't know that it had changed from those cards to the book (the only change I knew of was the Mech Rider one).

[WWHSD]

8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Dreamer's Cache is 2.

But really, it looks like the Caches of the first book were made for fluff reasons while in the latter books they were used for balance. Von Schill's Cache is IMO the one in most dire need of revision.

Dreamer also has Aps that can give him the suit that he needs to summon.