Ice Dancers and Pounce.

[WWHSD]

If an Ice Dancer charges a Rougarou, is there any way to avoid granting it attack from Pounce at the end of her activation without the Ice Dancer leaving its engagement range?

It looks like the push from Forward Momentum is not optional. A push of up to 4" should include a 0" push if you didn't want the Ice Dancer to move. For the purposes of triggering Pounce, a 0" push is still a push, right? 


"Forward Momentum: At the end of this
model's Activation, push this model up to 2" for
each Walk Action it took and up to 4" for each
Charge Action it took during the Activation."

[Adran]

In a combination of a model suffering 0 damage did not suffer daamge, and a pig pushing 0 did not push (FAQ answers 17 and 127) and I say that pushign 0 inch does not count as a push. 

[MrDeathTrout]

I disagree. There are two separate and distinct steps to a push/move/etc.

In my mind you push following all of the restrictions (towards model X, away from model X, Y inches, up to Y inches, etc.) of the push.  The direction and distance are determined at this time.  The rule book says in the case of an "up to" push the controller chooses how far the model is pushed up to the maximum distance.  Since 0 is less than the maximum distance, it is a valid choice.  You can push 0 inches.  This may be by choice, or compulsory (e.g. if you are required to push toward a model you are in base contact with).  At this point you have pushed 0 inches.

Quote

 

Big Book pg 43:  Usually, when a model is pushed it must be moved as close to the maximum distance of the push as possible, in a straight line. However, some push effects will state that a model is pushed "up to" a distance. In this case, the controller of the pushing effect may choose how far the model is pushed, up to the maximum distance.

 

 

Next you determine if a push took place for traits that react to pushes.  The FAQ entry was created to address issues where models were being lured 0" inches and pounced on.  The intent is to address whether a push/move/etc. is considered to have taken place once a 0 in push/move/etc. has been completed.  Not to say 0" pushes/moves/etc. are not allowed.

Quote

 

If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0" (zero inches), does it count as having moved?
No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc.

 

 

 

 

This is consistent with how damage is applied.  A model takes X damage, damage may be reduced/prevented, if damage was reduced/prevented to 0 no damage was taken.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Myyrä]

6 minutes ago, Artiee said:

Yes..  That is what it means.    It does not say you may push up to x".    A 0" push is not a push as per the FAQ quoted.  

It doesn't count as having been pushed, which isn't necessarily the same thing. If an action says it deals damage, but some ability reduces the damage to 0 the model doesn't count as being damaged, but the action was still resolved.

A model that is in base contact with another model or impassable terrain won't actually be pushed anywhere if it is pushed towards the model/slash terrain, but I would still allow choosing to push in that direction if the ability or action states that the push can be into any direction. I don't see how choosing to push 0" when an ability says push up to x" is any different.

[solkan]

56 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

If an Ice Dancer charges a Rougarou, is there any way to avoid granting it attack from Pounce at the end of her activation without the Ice Dancer leaving its engagement range?

It looks like the push from Forward Momentum is not optional. A push of up to 4" should include a 0" push if you didn't want the Ice Dancer to move. For the purposes of triggering Pounce, a 0" push is still a push, right? 

From the FAQ:

24. If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0" (zero inches), does it count as having moved?

No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc. 

 

So, no, a 0" push isn't a push.

 

[solkan]

9 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Does that mean that an Ice Dancer must move at least slightly at the end of any activation in which she charged or walked?

No, I don't believe that's what it means.

There's a separation between how much damage a model does to a target and how much the target suffers.  In the same manner, there's a separation between the act of pushing and effects triggered by something being pushed.  Or for that matter a separation between how far an effect says to push something and both how far and whether there's actually a push that happens.

A push of 0" isn't a push as far as things that are triggered by pushed or being pushed.  Likewise, a 'push four inches' effect that stops immediately because of base contact so it ends up being a push of zero inches doesn't trigger effects effects for being pushed.

In other words, an "up to" movement is effectively optional.

[Myyrä]

Just now, Artiee said:

 And the FAQ says that a push of 0" is not a push.    So that rules out 0" push.

Except the FAQ doesn't really say that, as I already pointed out.

[WWHSD]

26 minutes ago, solkan said:

From the FAQ:

24. If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0" (zero inches), does it count as having moved?

No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc. 

 

So, no, a 0" push isn't a push.

 

Does that mean that an Ice Dancer must move at least slightly at the end of any activation in which she charged or walked?

[MrDeathTrout]

I can see the argument that if you push 0 inches it is not a push, so you didn't push which it says to do.  But I would say you can push 0 inches voluntarily.  Which is no push.

[Artiee]

On 8/4/2017 at 0:22 PM, WWHSD said:

Does that mean that an Ice Dancer must move at least slightly at the end of any activation in which she charged or walked?

Yes..  That is what it means.    It does not say you may push up to x".    A 0" push is not a push as per the FAQ quoted.  

[Artiee]

**double post

[Artiee]

2 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

It doesn't count as having been pushed, which isn't necessarily the same thing. If an action says it deals damage, but some ability reduces the damage to 0 the model doesn't count as being damaged, but the action was still resolved.

A model that is in base contact with another model or impassable terrain won't actually be pushed anywhere if it is pushed towards the model/slash terrain, but I would still allow choosing to push in that direction if the ability or action states that the push can be into any direction. I don't see how choosing to push 0" when an ability says push up to x" is any different.

SRB pg 46, says, The model push be moved as close to the maximum distance of the post as possible.   The SRB also says that pushes up to x", the controller of the effect may choose how far that push is.      And the FAQ says that a push of 0" is not a push.    So that rules out 0" push.

[MrDeathTrout]

1 hour ago, Artiee said:

SRB pg 46, says, The model push be moved as close to the maximum distance of the post as possible.   The SRB also says that pushes up to x", the controller of the effect may choose how far that push is.      And the FAQ says that a push of 0" is not a push.    So that rules out 0" push.

If the Ice Dancer was in base contact with the model they charged and wanted to push toward that model (which would be 0 inches) would you allow that or would you say it was 0" and thus is not valid?

[Artiee]

58 minutes ago, MrDeathTrout said:

If the Ice Dancer was in base contact with the model they charged and wanted to push toward that model (which would be 0 inches) would you allow that or would you say it was 0" and thus is not valid?

Not valid in that direction.  You would push. 0" so it's not allowed.  

[trikk]

On 10.08.2017 at 6:07 AM, MrDeathTrout said:

I disagree. There are two separate and distinct steps to a push/move/etc.

In my mind you push following all of the restrictions (towards model X, away from model X, Y inches, up to Y inches, etc.) of the push.  The direction and distance are determined at this time.  The rule book says in the case of an "up to" push the controller chooses how far the model is pushed up to the maximum distance.  Since 0 is less than the maximum distance, it is a valid choice.  You can push 0 inches.  This may be by choice, or compulsory (e.g. if you are required to push toward a model you are in base contact with).  At this point you have pushed 0 inches.

 

Next you determine if a push took place for traits that react to pushes.  The FAQ entry was created to address issues where models were being lured 0" inches and pounced on.  The intent is to address whether a push/move/etc. is considered to have taken place once a 0 in push/move/etc. has been completed.  Not to say 0" pushes/moves/etc. are not allowed.

This is consistent with how damage is applied.  A model takes X damage, damage may be reduced/prevented, if damage was reduced/prevented to 0 no damage was taken.  

I agree. The FAQ doesn`t prohibit 0" pushes in any way. Else we would have absurd situation of "push 2" towards a model" which you`re in b2b with which creates a game-breaking loop because the game requires you to do a illegal thing.