Timing of when killed and after killed abilities and triggers

[Myyrä]

I am quite confused on how is the timing supposed to work with abilities and triggers that are resolved when model dies and with dying in general.

 

1: Do abilities and triggers that happen when model dies and after model dies happen at the same time? (Think explosive demise and Snow Storm's Gorge trigger for example.)

 

2: Are after model is killed triggers resolve before/after/at the same time when after damaging triggers?

 

3: What about after failing/succeeding/resolving triggers?

 

4: What happens when model is killed (reduced to 0 wounds) before it's own action is resolved? Does the action still get resolved normally? (Think attacking model taking damage from Lynch's defensive trigger and also triggering something that is resolved after damaging like overpower.)

 

5: Are triggers/abilities that happen when/after model is reduced to 0 wounds resolved before/after/at the same time as when/after killed triggers/abilities.

 

Bonus question: The defensive triggers that all Riders have, do you apply the reduction twice against attacks caused by overpower and similar triggers?

 

 

I would really appreciate if your answers included the word 'because'.

[Tuttleboy]

This is in the call out box titled General Timing.

 

 

If two Abilities happen at the same time, resolve them in the following order:

 

1. The Acting Model resolves its Abilities.

2. The Defending Model (if there is one) resolves its Abilities.

3. Any other models controlled by the First player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the First player chooses.

4. Any other models controlled by the Second player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the Second player chooses.

 

I hope that answers most of your questions. Question 2 is after the model has taken sufficient damage to reduce it to 0 wounds.  Question 4 you'll need to complete the action before removing the killed model from the table.  You may apply a trigger once per action. 

[Justin]

Read the general timing callout box in the bottom left of pg. 46 (big rulebook) and the trigger timing on pg. 30. Let me know about any questions you can't figure out from there.

[The Godlyness]

Because.

 

Call out box general timing

 

1: when triggers and abilities happen at the same time Triggers happen first.

 

2-3: Debatable the defending models triggers happen first. then the attackers. BUT only if they resolve at the same time. "After damaging" triggers before after success or failure. and all three of those happen before "After Resolving" triggers

 

4: unless explicitly stated the model would complete the action before being removed. Leveticus and High river style explicitly state that if they use their abilities and die the action fails.

 

5: After damaging triggers Explictly states that the model is not removed till the trigger is resolved.  For instance if Rasputina uses December's Curse and Triggers Overpower and her first attack kills the model she MUST make the second attack even though the model is at 0 wounds since she declared the trigger.

 

5.1: If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed. So "After success" "After Failure" "After Resolving" triggers would happen only if the model is still alive. Also Again General timing Box.

 

Bonus. the riders triggers happen for each attack so for each attack they would reduce the damage.

 

And i was just ninja'd :ph34r:

[rgarbonzo]

Big rulebook, pg. 30, right hand side, heading 4 "declare one trigger":

 

"After resolving: These effects happen after step 5, regardless of success or failure."

 

Step 5: determine success (same page), last paragraph:

 

"...the results of success or failure are resolved."

 

So "after resolving" triggers happen after the results of success or failure are resolved, this includes damage.

 

It's also worth noting that "After Succeeding", "After Failing", and "After Resolving" all have the same timing point in their description (after step 5) the only thing that differentiates them is whether damage or failing the duel is required. Their timing is the same, as listed in the descriptions on pg. 30. So, no, "after resolving" does not mean it needs to wait until all attacks from a charge are resolved, for example, as the timing is defined in the text of the rule, not in its name. And that timing is after step 5.

 

Everything you need is on pg. 30.

 

 

 

 

So everything that is after damaging/failing/succeeding/resolving happens at the same time, the only caveat is that after damaging happens before the model is removed from play if it is killed, the other three will not.

[Myyrä]

Thanks for all the answers. Too bad most of them don't actually answer the questions I had in mind, but that is mostly my fault for formulating my questions wrong. I'll try to be more precise now and open up my thinking bit more.

 

Read the general timing callout box in the bottom left of pg. 46 (big rulebook) and the trigger timing on pg. 30. Let me know about any questions you can't figure out from there.

 

I spent at least half an hour reading those exact spots and feel that all the answers can't be found there.

 

Here's my second try of describing the problems I'm having.

 

1: There are multiple different wordings used to describe stuff that happens around the time when model is killed. I found atleast "When model is killed", "After killing a model", "If model is killed", "Whenever model is killed", and there might be others too. Do all these mean the same thing and thus follow the normal timing rules for abilities and triggers?

 

2: The only possible timing I can think of for abilities and triggers that happen when model is killed is during step 5 when damage is applied to model. That would mean that they go before "after damaging" and "after succeeding/failing/resolving". Is this timing correct? Would that mean that triggers with this timing would go before for example Witchling Stalker's Searing Mark?

 

3: Do "after succeeding" etc. triggers happen at the same time as "after damaging" triggers? I know that the rulebook says that "after damaging" triggers happen before target model is removed from play, but it does not say that "after succeeding" etc. triggers do not also happen before target model is removed from play. Absence of evidence is not evidence of anything etc...

 

4: I think atleast Godlyness understood what I was trying to ask here.

4: unless explicitly stated the model would complete the action before being removed. Leveticus and High river style explicitly state that if they use their abilities and die the action fails.

 

Is this answer actually based on some rules? I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I am unable to find the rules that support this claim.

 

Can a model's action be interrupted by that model being reduced to 0 wounds and thus being killed?

 

5: Does stuff that happens when model is reduced to 0 wounds happen at the same time as stuff that happens when model is killed following the normal rules for timing of triggers and abilities? This would at least cause some very interesting interactions, some of which I'm happy to list if someone can't think of any themselves.

 

Bonus question: Riders' defensive triggers and Grinding Halt (and possibly some other defensive triggers too) give damage reduction or bonus armor for the duration of the action. Action is not resolved until all other actions generated by it are resolved. That would mean that the additional damage reduction/armor would be still in effect when an additional attack from Onslaught or other similar trigger is made. That attack can also trigger the same defensive trigger thus giving double reduction for the additional attack. I do not believe this is intended, but that's how the rules go. Any thoughts?

[Icemyn]

 

Bonus question: Riders' defensive triggers and Grinding Halt (and possibly some other defensive triggers too) give damage reduction or bonus armor for the duration of the action. Action is not resolved until all other actions generated by it are resolved. That would mean that the additional damage reduction/armor would be still in effect when an additional attack from Onslaught or other similar trigger is made. That attack can also trigger the same defensive trigger thus giving double reduction for the additional attack. I do not believe this is intended, but that's how the rules go. Any thoughts?

 

Onslaught and the like spawn a separate action. Yes the action that caused the onslaught is not resolved, but that does not mean that the two actions are the same. 

[The Godlyness]

1: give a scenario where this is troubling you. But to answer your question I believe yes.

2:Searing mark is applied to the target when the stalker does damage. The model killed by the stalker had to have suffered damage first so the mark is applied before killed. There are a whole bunch of threads floating around asking if Sonnia gets a stalker if a stalker kills a model. Short answer yes. Also if she flame bursts a model and uses her burning trigger she gets a stalker. Just to clarify.

2.1: a model suffering damage from an attack that kills it would trigger It's death effect first then after damaging would happen. Also a model can only be killed once in a course of actions.

3:technically yes but in reality no. "After damaging" "After succeeding" "After failing" "After resolving" all happen after step 5. But you can't succeed with out doing damage first. And you can resolve without success or failure first. So in reality it's. Damaging > success/failure >revolving.

3.1 the only after success trigger I know of that cares if enemy target is still in play is Coppelius's "I want them both" trigger. But the answer is no it is not in play. Because as soon as a model hits zero it's immediately removed pending abilities that go off on death. After Damaging explicitly holds the model till resolution. After success does not.

4: give me a scenario you are having trouble with. If its Jacob lynch's trigger the duel totals are already generated and it's on to the damage flip. Since lynch's trigger does not say if the attacking model is killed this way the action fails.

5: yes list things so I can see where you are coming from.

Bonus. The riders trigger says:

Reduce damage suffered by this model during this Action by 1 for each in its final duel total, to a minimum of 1.

Onslaught while not resolving the first action the second action still is a new action. It still has to check for any duels for targeting and range and los. It also generates its own duel totals. So when it declares its trigger it uses that actions duel totals not the first actions.

Grinding Halt: This model immediately gains an additional Armor +2 for the duration of the Action.

I might have to agree on grinding hauler since its wording is different. It does not have the words "this action" but rather duration of the action.

Hope this helps.

[Myyrä]

I should have posted six different threads...
 

1: give a scenario where this is troubling you. But to answer your question I believe yes.

I don't care enough to be actually bothered by this, but explosive demise and Snow Storm's Gorge trigger for example. Explosive demise happens when model is killed and Gorge after killing a model. Triggers are resolved before actions if they would happen at the same time, but I guess someone could argue that stuff that happens after killing should happen later.

 

2:Searing mark is applied to the target when the stalker does damage. The model killed by the stalker had to have suffered damage first so the mark is applied before killed. There are a whole bunch of threads floating around asking if Sonnia gets a stalker if a stalker kills a model. Short answer yes. Also if she flame bursts a model and uses her burning trigger she gets a stalker. Just to clarify.

I shall look up some of these threads and return after that.

 

2.1: a model suffering damage from an attack that kills it would trigger It's death effect first then after damaging would happen. Also a model can only be killed once in a course of actions.

So it seems that you agree with me on this.

 

3:technically yes but in reality no. "After damaging" "After succeeding" "After failing" "After resolving" all happen after step 5. But you can't succeed with out doing damage first. And you can resolve without success or failure first. So in reality it's. Damaging > success/failure >revolving.

Rgabonzo just quoted Justin saying otherwise about After Succeeding/failing/resolving and I would agree with Justin based on the text on the rulebook. I also don't believe you have the kind of authority that you can just say how stuff goes without providing any reasoning. Only FAQ/errata has that kind of authority. (Which is exactly why I asked in my first post that answers should include the word because.)

 

3.1 the only after success trigger I know of that cares if enemy target is still in play is Coppelius's "I want them both" trigger. But the answer is no it is not in play. Because as soon as a model hits zero it's immediately removed pending abilities that go off on death. After Damaging explicitly holds the model till resolution. After success does not.

There's atleast Fire Starter's BUUUURRRN! and its Never Enough trigger.

 

4: give me a scenario you are having trouble with. If its Jacob lynch's trigger the duel totals are already generated and it's on to the damage flip. Since lynch's trigger does not say if the attacking model is killed this way the action fails.

Explosive Demise combined with for example Colette's Props trigger or Silent One's Frozen Shards trigger. The real problem I'm having is the fact that rules don't exactly say that part of the action can't fail if the attacking model dies. They do say (more or less) that defending model should not be removed until after step 5 and after damaging triggers are resolved, but there is no such mention for attacking model. It also seems that, at least according to you, a trigger can fail to resolve because the defender dies. Why shouldn't some triggers fail to resolve when attacker dies?

 

5: yes list things so I can see where you are coming from.

Bete Noire combined with Expunge or Snow Storm's gorge for example.

 

Bonus. The riders trigger says:
Reduce damage suffered by this model during this Action by 1 for each in its final duel total, to a minimum of 1.

Onslaught while not resolving the first action the second action still is a new action. It still has to check for any duels for targeting and range and los. It also generates its own duel totals. So when it declares its trigger it uses that actions duel totals not the first actions.

Grinding Halt: This model immediately gains an additional Armor +2 for the duration of the Action.

I might have to agree on grinding hauler since its wording is different. It does not have the words "this action" but rather duration of the action.

Even I don't care about how this should be played according to rules. I think it's pretty clear how it should actually be played. (That's why it's the bonus question.)

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks for taking interest. Next time I would appreciate greater focus on facts instead of opinions, but your input is appreciated.

 

Edit: Quick search seemed to suggest that there isn't really a definite answer to the Sonnia/Witchling dilemma. To me it looks like there is absolutely nothing supporting Sonnia being able to summon a Witchling from an attack that gave a model burning with after damaging trigger. It would seem that you can summon from Witchling Stalker's attack however, but don't quote me on that.

 

If everyone hasn't figured it out yet, the biggest reason I started this thread, is getting these questions answered in the FAQ. Of course I will accept all other answers too if they are actually backed by rules instead of opinions. I'm not trying to be difficult here.

[Icemyn]

With your attitude, it's a wonder that anyone would take interest at all. 

[The Godlyness]

Never enough can not happen If the target is not in play. Ie killed. Only after damaging explicitly says the model is not removed. After success does not. And since this is a permissive rules set the target is not there for never enough.

I think you mis read mine or Justin's post cause we are in agreement.

You can summon models (ie stalkers from reincarnation) from bete or levy. Since it says reduced to 0 wounds. Says nothing of killed. If expunge is worded the same then It summons what a flesh construct?

For gorge since it is a trigger it happens first. So if he was damaged he would heal. Then would take damage from exploding death effects.

Second part of gorge reducing the model to 0 does not necessarily kill it see levy and bete. So if he punched bete and she buried he would not heal since no model died.

On the prompt thing if the attacking model dies to let's say black blood or explosive demise the second attack generated by let's say onslaught would not happen. The attacking model is not there. It is dead.

I was talking about actions failing not triggers. Also models thst hit 0 wounds in step 5 are removed at step 5. Unless an after damaging trigger holds them. After of course any abilities or triggers happen when killed. Or after killing. Those happen in step 5 when the model dies.

Once duel totals and what not start though death really is irrelevant. Since no triggers or abilitys affect the duel total (cept levy and high river style which tell you the action fails if they die) Also sensei Yu affects the duel total but not in a damaging capacity.)) After the final duel total damage flip happens.

And most of this actually all of it is from the rulebook. I So understand parsing it can be difficult. Give me Any specific scenario and I can tell how it plays out step by step. So if one thing is troubling you please feel free to ask.

Also on the Sonnia thing there is a quote from Justin in there saying it works just fine. But again his opinion but also the general consensus. Free stalkers for everyone.

[Myyrä]

Never enough can not happen If the target is not in play. Ie killed. Only after damaging explicitly says the model is not removed. After success does not. And since this is a permissive rules set the target is not there for never enough.

I think you mis read mine or Justin's post cause we are in agreement.

It's possible I misunderstood something here. Let me try this again. Justin says that the timing point of triggers is determined by their descriptions on page 30 (and 32 too I suppose). The timing point listed on pages 30 and 32 (after step 5) is the same for after damaging, after failing, after succeeding and after resolving, so it seems to me that they would all be resolved at the same time. That would mean that attacker's after damaging trigger is resolved after defender's after resolving trigger for example.

From what you wrote I understood that after damaging triggers should always be resolved first, then after succeeding/failing triggers and last but not least after resolving triggers. Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

 

You can summon models (ie stalkers from reincarnation) from bete or levy. Since it says reduced to 0 wounds. Says nothing of killed. If expunge is worded the same then It summons what a flesh construct?

For gorge since it is a trigger it happens first. So if he was damaged he would heal. Then would take damage from exploding death effects.

Second part of gorge reducing the model to 0 does not necessarily kill it see levy and bete. So if he punched bete and she buried he would not heal since no model died.

I should not have chosen Expunge as an example. I remembered the wording incorrectly. It's the Road Kill Scholar ability listed on the same card that had a summoning happen when model was killed. Nephilims' Grow and Mature abilities would have worked as examples too.

I'm a bit unclear on whether you are saying that when reduced to 0 abilities should be resolved before when killed abilities, or that Leveticus and Bete retroactively make these abilities un-work because they cancel the killed status. Can you elaborate and provide reference where possible?

 

On the prompt thing if the attacking model dies to let's say black blood or explosive demise the second attack generated by let's say onslaught would not happen. The attacking model is not there. It is dead.

I was talking about actions failing not triggers. Also models thst hit 0 wounds in step 5 are removed at step 5. Unless an after damaging trigger holds them. After of course any abilities or triggers happen when killed. Or after killing. Those happen in step 5 when the model dies.

Once duel totals and what not start though death really is irrelevant. Since no triggers or abilitys affect the duel total (cept levy and high river style which tell you the action fails if they die) Also sensei Yu affects the duel total but not in a damaging capacity.)) After the final duel total damage flip happens.

I misunderstood your first answer then. Sorry about that. This is how I would play it too. The ambiguity of rules about models being killed just makes me less than 100% certain it works like this.

 

Also models thst hit 0 wounds in step 5 are removed at step 5. Unless an after damaging trigger holds them.

This is absolutely awesome answer because I hadn't even thought of the possibility that the timing for removing a model is changed based on whether an "after damaging" -trigger was declared or not. That is certainly one possibility. I always just assumed that removing the target model happens always at the same time, but what you suggest is definitely a possibility. Is there some reference to back this up?

 

And most of this actually all of it is from the rulebook. I So understand parsing it can be difficult. Give me Any specific scenario and I can tell how it plays out step by step. So if one thing is troubling you please feel free to ask.

I would find it much easier to read the relevant parts in the rulebook instead of having to ask you every time I have a problem. That's the reason I keep asking for reference for everything.

 

Also models thst hit 0 wounds in step 5 are removed at step 5. Unless an after damaging trigger holds them. After of course any abilities or triggers happen when killed.

...

Also on the Sonnia thing there is a quote from Justin in there saying it works just fine. But again his opinion but also the general consensus. Free stalkers for everyone.

This is actually a contradiction, unless "after damaging" triggers also push forward the resolving of "after reducing to 0" abilities.

[The Godlyness]

That is certainly one possibility. I always just assumed that removing the target model happens always at the same time, but what you suggest is definitely a possibility. Is there some reference to back this up?

 

 

Damage is done is Step 5. So with that tid bit of knowledge we know that models are killed in step 5. from the rule book under Damage and Wounds.

When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

so lets say guild guard strikes gremlin with its sword.  Guild guard does enough wounds in step 5 to reduce the gremlin to 0 gremlin is removed Immediately from the table since it is now killed.

 

now lets say teddy punchs the gremlin triggering peekaboo and it kills the gremlin we follow the rules for after damaging which are

 

•After damaging: These effects happen after step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

 

so that means the gremlin which is at 0 wounds is not removed cause of a trigger declared before the damage flip. so it gets peekabooed and then is removed.

 

 

So "after resolving" triggers happen after the results of success or failure are resolved, this includes damage. (emphasis mine)

 

 

No model can both have an after damaging trigger and his target have and after success in the same duel. it can only be Damaging Failure resolve.  or if it misses success resolve.  or if black joker failure resolve. the only two triggers i can find  (wave 2) that are after failing are on attack actions, so it would never coincide with an after damaging trigger.

 

I'm a bit unclear on whether you are saying that when reduced to 0 abilities should be resolved before when killed abilities

 

the timing is different as soon as the model hits 0 its ability kicks in. but in essence yes.  Snow storm hits bete declares gorge. bete is reduced to 0. betty death rattles and passes her action. bete is no longer killed. (as per death rattles) so gorge can not go off since no model was killed. same with levy and Rising sun huggy and bad juju? also see Colette's death defying. all of these models say they are not killed. so since nothing is killed no grow or Doggy.

 

I think i referenced all the points. anything else?

[Myyrä]

I think i referenced all the points. anything else?

I do believe you referenced all the relevant points in the book and therein exactly lies the problem.

The part about "After damaging" triggers' timing can be read as modifying the rules for removing the target model after it has been killed, when such trigger has been declared (as you read it) or as clarifying when "After damaging" triggers should be resolved compared to removing killed models (as I read it first). It remains unclear which of these interpretations is correct.

I also honestly can't tell what are you trying to tell by quoting that part of Justin's post. That quote just tells that "after resolving" triggers are resolved after step 5, which isn't exactly news. What am I missing here?

It would make most sense that reduced to 0 abilities would be resolved before killed abilities. I do not think that it is clearly stated in the rules though. (Also huggy and juju have their timing down as when killed.)

There also still remains the problem with Sonnia's summoning.

[The Godlyness]

It's possible I misunderstood something here. Let me try this again. Justin says that the timing point of triggers is determined by their descriptions on page 30 (and 32 too I suppose). The timing point listed on pages 30 and 32 (after step 5) is the same for after damaging, after failing, after succeeding and after resolving, so it seems to me that they would all be resolved at the same time. That would mean that attacker's after damaging trigger is resolved after defender's after resolving trigger for example.(emphasis mine)

From what you wrote I understood that after damaging triggers should always be resolved first, then after succeeding/failing triggers and last but not least after resolving triggers. Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

 

you asked why i quoted that line.

 

that is incorrect. "after resolving" happens after Damaging success and failure.

 

I am now confused. After damaging clearly states when it goes off, and How it functions and how it interacts with a model that was dealt lethal damage.  (ie the after damaging trigger resolves before the model is removed.

 

Can you give me an example of how your interpretation works?

 

Models reduced to 0 wounds abilities do go off before killed. cause if they are not killed (ie healing) then after killed abilities CAN NOT go off since nothing has been killed.

 

No reasonable person could read that oh hey i reduced your model to zero so i killed it and do an effect then you become unkilled and my effect is now undone. or it stays and we both win.

 

model hits 0 wounds.---> Applicable abilities go off and if wound count is greater than 0 stop here.---> if no abilities model is killed. --->Applicable abilities go off here (Finish the job). --->Remove model. 

 

If an after damaging trigger is in place

 

Model hits 0 wounds--->. Applicable abilities go off and if wound count is greater than 0 skip to "After damaging" triggers step otherwise--->. No abilities, Model is killed.---> applicable abilities go off here---->. Do what the "After damaging trigger says to do"--->. Remove model.

 

i wish i could make you a flow chart

[rgarbonzo]

But you can't succeed with out doing damage first. And you can resolve without success or failure first. So in reality it's. Damaging > success/failure >revolving.

 

 

Actually you can succeed in the duel and get a black joker for damage and still get an after succeeding trigger. Unless I misunderstood and you meant that after you succeed in  a duel you go to damage flip.

[The Godlyness]

Yes ofc the After success trigger does not care if you black joker the damage flip or even if you do damage it only cares about the duel. You still succeeded.

But if you declare an after success trigger you did not declare an after damaging one. Or even an after failing one.

So to me it's a moot point. I just put it first since most times people like their after damaging and it's much more common.

[Math Mathonwy]

I should have posted six different threads...

YES! I'm having huge difficulty following Godlyness' replies since they aren't arranged into quote blocks and I have to admit that I'm now thoroughly confused by this whole conversation and I still have trouble understanding the timing of various things.

[zFiend]

YES! I'm having huge difficulty following Godlyness' replies since they aren't arranged into quote blocks and I have to admit that I'm now thoroughly confused by this whole conversation and I still have trouble understanding the timing of various things.

You ain't the only one..

[Myyrä]

YES! I'm having huge difficulty following Godlyness' replies since they aren't arranged into quote blocks and I have to admit that I'm now thoroughly confused by this whole conversation and I still have trouble understanding the timing of various things.

Ditto. 

 

you asked why i quoted that line.

 

that is incorrect. "after resolving" happens after Damaging success and failure.

I still haven't seen the rule that states this. The rulebook clearly gives the same time point (After step 5) for all of these. We can of course just agree to disagree.

 

I am now confused. After damaging clearly states when it goes off, and How it functions and how it interacts with a model that was dealt lethal damage.  (ie the after damaging trigger resolves before the model is removed.

 

Can you give me an example of how your interpretation works?

I just assumed that target model is always removed at the same time (ie. some time after step 5) whether "after damaging" trigger is declared or not, and the part that describes when "after damaging" triggers are resolved just clarifies the timing of "after damaging" triggers and does not modify in any way the timing for removing models from the table, because it doesn't explicitly say so.

 

Models reduced to 0 wounds abilities do go off before killed. cause if they are not killed (ie healing) then after killed abilities CAN NOT go off since nothing has been killed.

 

No reasonable person could read that oh hey i reduced your model to zero so i killed it and do an effect then you become unkilled and my effect is now undone. or it stays and we both win.

 

model hits 0 wounds.---> Applicable abilities go off and if wound count is greater than 0 stop here.---> if no abilities model is killed. --->Applicable abilities go off here (Finish the job). --->Remove model. 

 

If an after damaging trigger is in place

 

Model hits 0 wounds--->. Applicable abilities go off and if wound count is greater than 0 skip to "After damaging" triggers step otherwise--->. No abilities, Model is killed.---> applicable abilities go off here---->. Do what the "After damaging trigger says to do"--->. Remove model.

 

i wish i could make you a flow chart

I was listing abilities that work problematically if "after reducing to 0" and "after killing" abilities are resolved at the same time. It's no wonder that the interactions are wonky there. The problem here is that rules don't really state that they should be resolved in that order. By now I'm crystal clear on how you think the timing should be resolved.

[The Godlyness]

If any of you can find a scenario where the timing does not work please post your findings.

On the after resolving going off before success just think about that. You trying to resolve the action before completing parts of it. But hey play that How ever you think is correct and tell me what weird interactions you get.

The assumption that models are removed at the same time I think is your problem. As soon as it hits 0 wounds it's immediately removed. That is during step 5. But then what's this an ability or trigger Which does something. Like completing it's effect before the model is removed. And either it's then removed. Or its not. This could be during step 5 or in after damaging after step 5.

On the quote box thing for some reason I can't do multi quote I try and it fails.

So now I am walking away from this. The timing is spelled in the rule book when things happen And at this point I think you want the rules to fail which they don't do.

[Math Mathonwy]

The assumption that models are removed at the same time I think is your problem. As soon as it hits 0 wounds it's immediately removed. That is during step 5. But then what's this an ability or trigger Which does something. Like completing it's effect before the model is removed. And either it's then removed. Or its not. This could be during step 5 or in after damaging after step 5.

I'm really sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what any of that meant

[rgarbonzo]

Ironsides: After this model suffers damage from an enemy Ml Action, the Attacker suffers an uncheatable 2/3/4 damage flip and this model gains the Adrenaline +1 Condition until the end of the game.

 

Chompy: Onslaught: After damaging, immediately take another (1) Ml Attack Action against the same target. This Attack Action may not declare Triggers

 

Basically after flipping for damage and the model recording damage check to see if it is killed, if it is not killed then the defenders trigger will go first, example. Chompy hits Ironsides in Ml range, Chompy (attacker) triggers Onslaught, Ironsides (defender) Good Shot, My Turn.

 

Ironsides will get their trigger first provided that they are not Killed (reduced to 0 Wounds). If they are Killed the model is immediately removed from the table unless the either model has an after damaging trigger.

 

In this scenario they both have triggers that are after damaging so the defender (Ironsides) will trigger first and before it is removed from the table. So Chompy gets a "free" attack but Ironsides gets the same trigger, so it will go off again before the model is removed from the table. 

 

[Paddywhack]

I'm a bit confused as to why an After Succeeding trigger would not go off if the model is killed? I understand that many triggers affect the now dead model and so would be moot. I can't think of a specific trigger at the moment, but lets say there is a trigger that grants the attacking model a push after succeeding. From what I can make out with the above discussion some people are saying such a trigger would not go off if the model was killed, even though the requiremnts of the trigger (in my mind) have been met (succeeding).

 

So, attacker hits defender and declares a trigger (a push for the attacker in this case). The attacker succeeds and manages to kill the defender. Woudl the trigger go off and why or why not?

 

For timing all I see is (in the small rulebook) :

Once success or failure is determined, the cards in use are discarded, and then the results of the success or failure are resolved.

 

The results of the success or failure are both the trigger and the damage flip.

 

I will have to look through my big rulebook tonight as maybe I'm missing something.

[The Godlyness]

@paddy

After success works just how says. You succeed the duel. If the success trigger needs the target (ie never enough or Coppelius's I want them both.) and the target is dead the trigger does nothing. But an after success like surge would go off regardless if the model is dead or alive.

Edit. For coppelius his trigger says take this action again so if the model he originally attacked is dead he could strike another model he is engaged with.

[Paddywhack]

@ Godly

 

Thanks - this thread was a bit convoluted and I wasn't sure if I had missed something.