Smoke and Shadows

[MrDeathTrout]

The 10T Smoke and Shadows upgrade says "...unbury this model within 6" of a friendly model."

Does this require LoS?

My guts says yes, but I can't find anything in the rules that confirms this. The closest I've found is pg 40 "Any Action that has a target will also require that the acting model is able to see the target." But I'm not sure if there is a "target" in this action and unburying is not an action in this case.

[edonil]

Nope. There isn't a target, just something in there to keep you from launching up the board like a madman.

[Tuttleboy]

Yup, it doesn't say "target friendly model", so it can be any friendly model.

[The Godlyness]

a Friendly model could be in an enclosed space and a torakage (or a orian, now a TT Bro) could pop up outside on the other side of the wall. Really useful abilty

[some_scrub]

There are 2 things about the Smoke Bomb I was hoping someone could clear up for me:

First, why does the Smoke Bombs action have a range of 3?

Second, what happens if you can't actually place both of the Smoke Markers? I would guess that you can still take the action, but I can't figure out what happens. Can you place just one if that's all you can fit? Does "not touching any other models or Markers" imply that the two smoke markers cannot touch (so you can't stack them on top of each other)? Do you need to be able to actually place both to activate the Vanish trigger?

[MrDeathTrout]

My thoughts...

I've wondered why this Action has a range as well. My only guess is since the caster is not the target a range of - would be wrong.

It does not give an "up to" option so I assume you must place 2 if able. If not, place 1 if able. If not place 0, though the Action is pretty useless at this point since you could cast it's only trigger (Shadow Stride) easier than you can make this Action trigger it.

"Place two 50mm Smoke Markers touching this model, and not touching any other models or Markers" is vague as to whether the two markers can touch each other. I believe the intent is that they can touch each other, but no other Markers. I'm curious why the have the not touching other Markers restriction in the first place.

Good question about do you have to be able to place markers to use the trigger. I'd say yes since Wyrd has been pretty consistent that 0 damage = no damage, and 0 moment = no movement so I'd guess placing 0 markers = not placing markers. On the other hand you can use Shadow Stride without placing any markers.

[some_scrub]

If not place 0, though the Action is pretty useless at this point since you could cast it's only trigger (Shadow Stride) easier than you can make this Action trigger it.

...

Good question about do you have to be able to place markers to use the trigger. I'd say yes since Wyrd has been pretty consistent that 0 damage = no damage, and 0 moment = no movement so I'd guess placing 0 markers = not placing markers. On the other hand you can use Shadow Stride without placing any markers.

Thanks for the reply. One of the concerns I have with this upgrade is that this action only costs (1) while Shadow Stride is a (2). It's only slightly harder to cast Smoke Bombs and hit the trigger than it is to just cast Shadow Stride straight up (you need a 8+ of Masks then a 4+ of anything instead of a 6+ of Masks), but you save the AP. It just seems a little strange because there are lots of situations where you just want to use Smoke Bombs for the 1 AP discount on Shadow Stride and the smoke bombs part of the ability is pretty irrelevant or possibly even a disadvantage.

[Ausplosions]

Where is it stated that 0" of movement is not movement?

[Mach_5]

A model which moves 0" has not moved. No one moved the model any distance on the table. I'd think to see an faq if 0"movement still counts as movement, and I think that unlikely given the response to the 0 damage question.

[Fenton Crack]

Where is it stated that 0" of movement is not movement?

I think it may be reference to the http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?48536-Lure-discussion-and-new-FAQ Lure discussion and the new FAQ that have not to my knowledge discussed this ability but have indicated that 0" movement in regards to Pounce is not "movement," and are thus extrapolating.

[MrDeathTrout]

I think it may be reference to the http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?48536-Lure-discussion-and-new-FAQ Lure discussion and the new FAQ that have not to my knowledge discussed this ability but have indicated that 0" movement in regards to Pounce is not "movement," and are thus extrapolating.

Correct. That is exactly what I was thinking of. "...model which is already in base contact may not be moved..." I think it can be paraphrased that moving 0" is not considered movement, otherwise lure would work on models in base contact.

[Ausplosions]

Correct. That is exactly what I was thinking of. "...model which is already in base contact may not be moved..." I think it can be paraphrased that moving 0" is not considered movement, otherwise lure would work on models in base contact.

What if I'm not in base contact and move the base 0.0000001 of an inch, effectively not moving it at all?

I say that 0" is still movement. The Lure FAQ does not say it move 0",it says it does not move.

That could be argued that there is a distinction between the two.

[Mach_5]

If you moved 0.0000001" then you have moved.

0"movement = no movement.

Anything greater than 0" movement = that much movement.

It's simple math and I'd have expected if the intent were otherwise that some sort of definition in the rules would say that a model that moves, but doesn't move, still counts as moving.

[Clement]

What if I'm not in base contact and move the base 0.0000001 of an inch, effectively not moving it at all?

I say that 0" is still movement. The Lure FAQ does not say it move 0",it says it does not move.

That could be argued that there is a distinction between the two.

I think I see where you're heading with this, and while you might have a case with other abilities, lure is a bad ability to pin this argument on, since it's specifically requires you to move the model "it's walk", not "up to it's walk". Getting a model into that 0.00001 inches away sweet spot is wildly unlikely with this ability.

This effectively boils down to "base contact" and "not base contact". If base contact, then the Lure/Pounce combo won't work. If not base contact, Lure/Pounce away.

[MrDeathTrout]

Sorry I don't follow. My logic is the FAQ says if you are in base contact (0" away) you cannot be moved farther. Seems to me that means if you are moving 0" you are not moving. Though it is not a clear as it could be. But right or wrong the next FAQ will address it. I'm looking forward to seeing the answer.

[solkan]

My thoughts...

I've wondered why this Action has a range as well. My only guess is since the caster is not the target a range of - would be wrong.

It does not give an "up to" option so I assume you must place 2 if able. If not, place 1 if able. If not place 0, though the Action is pretty useless at this point since you could cast it's only trigger (Shadow Stride) easier than you can make this Action trigger it.

"Place two 50mm Smoke Markers touching this model, and not touching any other models or Markers" is vague as to whether the two markers can touch each other. I believe the intent is that they can touch each other, but no other Markers. I'm curious why the have the not touching other Markers restriction in the first place.

Good question about do you have to be able to place markers to use the trigger. I'd say yes since Wyrd has been pretty consistent that 0 damage = no damage, and 0 moment = no movement so I'd guess placing 0 markers = not placing markers. On the other hand you can use Shadow Stride without placing any markers.

I think the mistake is assuming that you have a choice whether or not to place those two markers. The rule says to place two smoke markers, not "up to two" and not "may place two". But "Place two". The one page digression arguing whether moving 0" is not moving doesn't seem to matter.

As the range goes, doesn't that apply to choosing the friendly model involved to place next to?

Side note: See http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?48536-Lure-discussion-and-new-FAQ&p=647022&viewfull=1#post647022 for the developer promise:

Alright, next FAQ I'll be sure to add:

Q: Does a model that moved 0" count as having moved?

[some_scrub]

I think the mistake is assuming that you have a choice whether or not to place those two markers. The rule says to place two smoke markers, not "up to two" and not "may place two". But "Place two". The one page digression arguing whether moving 0" is not moving doesn't seem to matter.

As the range goes, doesn't that apply to choosing the friendly model involved to place next to?

Side note: See http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?48536-Lure-discussion-and-new-FAQ&p=647022&viewfull=1#post647022 for the developer promise:

I don't really see how the 0" part movement question is related either. Having thought about it more, I guess the main thrust of my question was this:

If you use the ability, but there is no legal way to place the two markers, can you still declare the trigger? My intuition says "no," but this feeling isn't based on anything in particular. A related question is whether or not you're allowed to place them so that they're overlapping each other; to my ear the wording there seems ambiguous. If not, then there can be a situation where you could find a place for one and not the other. In that case, can you just place one? Can you still declare the trigger? I don't really have a strong gut feeling on this part.

About the 3" range, if your suggestion is correct, then I definitely misunderstood this ability. I think you don't choose a friendly model unless you successfully use the trigger, but the ability you get from using the trigger doesn't have a range. Also, I don't think this would really make sense anyway, since buried models aren't on the board. Nothing is ever in 3" of them. I think it's probably a typo, or I'm just way off base here.

[Bumpasses]

There are 2 things about the Smoke Bomb I was hoping someone could clear up for me:

First, why does the Smoke Bombs action have a range of 3?

Second, what happens if you can't actually place both of the Smoke Markers? I would guess that you can still take the action, but I can't figure out what happens. Can you place just one if that's all you can fit? Does "not touching any other models or Markers" imply that the two smoke markers cannot touch (so you can't stack them on top of each other)? Do you need to be able to actually place both to activate the Vanish trigger?

 

Sooooo

 

I hate to rez this, but I can't find the answer to these questions in any of the related postings here or in 10T.

 

what was the consensus on these 2 queires?

 

 

and do the smoke bombs only block LOS or do they provide a cover bonus?

 

ty

 

 

-j

 

[Bengt]

and do the smoke bombs only block LOS or do they provide a cover bonus?

No, they only have the trait Blocking, to give cover they have to have either Soft or Hard cover traits.

[Ausplosions]

Also, a new thread would have been better.