Temporal Shift.

[Ausplosions]

Says that Tara can give fast to all models in 6,then discards 3 cards or her whole hand.

Can she do this with 0,1or 2 cards as it is still her 'whole hand'?

[hypoking]

Don't see why not. Three cards is alternative to the full dump not a minimum bid.

[Marcalla]

Hypoking has the answer.

Its your entire hand, or 3 cards from your hand. If your entire hand only consists of 1 or 2 cards then that is your entire hand and you must discard it. If your current hand consists of 3 or more cards you discard 3 cards or you may discard your entire hand (3+cards) in that situation.

According to the rules as I read them. You may not discard 4 cards for this ability if you have say 6. Its either 3 or all of em (if you have more or less than 3).

[Iron Heel]

That is the way I read it.

[Ausplosions]

What if you have 0?

0 is your entire hand.

[hypoking]

Then you discard your hand, which conveniently consists of zero cards.

[Ausplosions]

Sweet!

Thought so.

Thanks.

[Paddywhack]

Really? My gut would say she has to discard 'a' card to use it. If an ability says discard a card to use, but you don't have any cards you can't use it. The whole hand thing is a bit wonky there though and I've been surprised before by Wyrd rules

Am I the only one seeing a lot of rules questions coming out of Tara?

[Lucidicide]

Am I the only one seeing a lot of rules questions coming out of Tara?

That's just 'cause she's knew so we have no M1E rules to fall back on.

You don't have to discard a card if you have none. The actions that use that say things like "discard a card to..."

[Creaturefeature]

I would think you would need to discard something. Discarding a card is a requirement of the ability. If you cant dscard something then you dont meet the requirement of the ability and cant use it. Its a good question for the first FAQ.

[Ausplosions]

I would think you would need to discard something. Discarding a card is a requirement of the ability. If you cant dscard something then you dont meet the requirement of the ability and cant use it. Its a good question for the first FAQ.

No.

Discarding 3 card or your HAND is a requirement.

If 0 is your hand. Then you discard 0.

0 is a number.

[Piranhamoose]

One could argue that you would need at least one card to even have a hand, and if you don't have a hand, you can't discard it.

[hypoking]

Take a minute to read the rules on control hands. You have a hand when you have nothing in it. It just happens to be empty.

[Ausplosions]

One could argue that you would need at least one card to even have a hand, and if you don't have a hand, you can't discard it.

You always have a control hand.

Sometimes it consists of zero cards.

Temporal Shift says discard your hand.

You have a hand of zero.

Discard zero.

[Paddywhack]

Take a minute to read the rules on control hands. You have a hand when you have nothing in it. It just happens to be empty.

Can you point me to where it says that? All I see is p24 where it mentions that you have to be careful with how quickly you use your cards or you could be left with an empty hand when you most need to cheat fate. I don't see anywhere that actually says anything about always having a hand even when out of cards. I guess I tend to take the more restrictive interpretations of unusual situations. It seems counterintuitive to be able to do such a good ability with no downside when normally there is one (if that makes sense - I'm tired). Again - Wyrd sometimes surprises me though.

Small side note - p 34 talks about discard cards from your hand and states :During the first Turn neither player should have a hand, so this phase can usually be skipped safely on Turn 1." Not 'player has 0 cards in their hand or an even an empty hand, but 'neither player should have a hand' period. This might be a little pedantic, but I came across it looking for info on Control Hands.

[hypoking]

I took the reference to an empty hand to mean it still existed when there was nothing in it myself. Admittedly, the pg 34 bit throws me. That would seem to complicate things. Who knows at this point?

[Adran]

I don't find P34 complicates it. It is speaking of a time when you haven't yet drawn your hand. Until you do that you don't have a hand.

Once you have drawn a hand, you will always have a hand, its just sometimes you have an empty hand (0 cards), which you can discard if an ability calls you to discard your entire hand. After doing it you will still have a hand of 0 cards.

[Creaturefeature]

You always have a control hand.

Sometimes it consists of zero cards.

Temporal Shift says discard your hand.

You have a hand of zero.

Discard zero.

It would still require the act of discarding. How can you discard when you have nothing to discard. You may still have a contol hand of 0 but that doesnt get past the requirement of placing something into the discard pile.

[Helm]

Your control hand is 2.

You have the task of placing 2 cards into the discard pile, increasing its size by 2.

At the start, the discard pile will have x cards in it. At the end, it will have x+2 cards in it. The size will have increased by 2, so you've successfully placed your whole hand in the discard pile.

Your control hand is 0.

You have the task of placing 0 cards into the discard pile, increasing its size by 0.

At the start, the discard pile will have x cards in it. At the end, it will have x+0 cards in it. The size will have increased by 0, so you've successfully placed your whole hand in the discard pile.

[Sybarite]

i like that wyrd don't take away your hand when you're out of cards

[zFiend]

Seems pretty stupid to be able to pull off a discard with nothing to discard? I would read it that you need to discard something, saying that I now discard my empty hand and pull this off isn't discarding.

[Rhonlore]

This is a lot like MTG. Drastic Revelation

Discard your hand. Draw seven cards, then discard three cards at random.

Rulings: You discard your hand as part of Drastic Revelation's effect, not as an additional cost. If you have no cards in hand at this point, you simply don't discard any; the rest of the spell will still have its effect.

Changing the ruling to say Temporal Shift we get...

You discard your hand as part of Temporal Shift's effect, not as an additional cost. If you have no cards in hand at this point, you simply don't discard any; the rest of the spell will still have its effect.

I realize it's a different game, with different rules and mechanics, but the underlying idea is the same. The wording for temporal shift was meant to prevent confusion.

[Creaturefeature]

Your control hand is 2.

You have the task of placing 2 cards into the discard pile, increasing its size by 2.

At the start, the discard pile will have x cards in it. At the end, it will have x+2 cards in it. The size will have increased by 2, so you've successfully placed your whole hand in the discard pile.

Your control hand is 0.

You have the task of placing 0 cards into the discard pile, increasing its size by 0.

At the start, the discard pile will have x cards in it. At the end, it will have x+0 cards in it. The size will have increased by 0, so you've successfully placed your whole hand in the discard pile.

You've actually not discarded any thing though. Also, your control hand is empty per page 24, since it is empty, not 0 you can't even place 0 cards on the discard pile to fulfill the discard requirements. The general definition of discarding requires that you get rid of a something. I also think page 24 reinforces that only cards can be discarded. An empty hand would allow you to discard nothing, not even 0. I get the arguement from the other side and I hope that it is addressed in the FAQ, because it is ambiguous.

[Helm]

You've actually not discarded any thing though. Also, your control hand is empty per page 24, since it is empty, not 0 you can't even place 0 cards on the discard pile to fulfill the discard requirements. The general definition of discarding requires that you get rid of a something. I also think page 24 reinforces that only cards can be discarded. An empty hand would allow you to discard nothing, not even 0. I get the arguement from the other side and I hope that it is addressed in the FAQ, because it is ambiguous.

Thanks for the rulebook reference, not owning it I can't really comment on the rules definition of 'empty'. Guess i'll sit waiting for the eventual ruling.

[Paddywhack]

I don't find P34 complicates it. It is speaking of a time when you haven't yet drawn your hand. Until you do that you don't have a hand.

Once you have drawn a hand, you will always have a hand, its just sometimes you have an empty hand (0 cards), which you can discard if an ability calls you to discard your entire hand. After doing it you will still have a hand of 0 cards.

I can understand where yu are coming from, but where in the rulebook does it actually say you always have a hand? Its seems to be a general interpretation, but one could also interpret that if you do not have any cards, you don't have a hand to discard. I'm looking for where people are seeing these interpretations in the current rulebook? I'm still re-reading the whole thing, so might have missed it. Again, it seems a bit good for not having to do anything. It makes it harder as its not a spell, but an action. I kinda hope it gets FAQ'd as it does seem a bit ambiguous and could lead to issues.

[The Godlyness]

Shrug off days discard a card remove a condition temp shift discard 3 cards or your hand 3 cards is highly specific. The whole hand thing is not. No numbers no reference to numbers. Nothing. Just that it has to be my hand. I discard my empty hand. I have satisfied temp shift the ability goes off. There is no confusion. Discard 3 cards or your hand. Which could be 85 cards or 0 as long as you have discarded what ever you have it works.