Viktoria crew questions

[Drool_bucket]

Would you keep Von Schill if you take Vanessa?

At 35 SS yes in almost every case. Take IDislexiaHave's list above and remove the SoC (which I am not a fan of) and upgrade a Ronin to Vanessa. Viks, Von Schill, Vanessa, Ronin and Gunslinger. That's 34. You can either do the Desp Merc (which I don't because I like First Blood in this crew) and lose a SS or upgrade the GS to a Librarian and be at 7 SS.

I would take that crew against most enemies for my Strategies. If I was expecting lots of WP tests I would figure out how to get Sue or at least a Oiran in. Probably Libbie for Sue.

Vanessa is too good to pass up and Von Schill is just that good that even needing a full Cache and it's worth it. Its being disciplined and filling the rest out with 4 or 5 stone models that is required.

[Odin1981]

Ronin are great with the Viks, but I have found myself moving away from taking three. They aren't particularly fast (4/6) unless you are utilizing Mobile to get over terrain features or getting their trigger off after an attack, something you can't always count on. Add in they aren't the toughest thing out there with only Hard to Kill as a defensive measure (yes, Harmless and expert defense, never seem to matter much)

Instead I've found myself using a Friekorpsmen. He is faster overall with the 5/7, one SS cheaper and with his armor a tad tougher. Now, mind you, he gets used as and objective grabber/someone to survive... Ronin are for attacking.

I am not a fan of the Student of Conflict... he just gets left behind IMO. Plus, with Vanessa right around the corner I wouldn't get used to being able to take him.

For a while I used two Desp Mercs as described above, two models that rushed forward and either turn two or three Used "For My Family" and "Uncontrolled Fire" to put a dent in something all the while burning my activations. It was a bonus if they managed to take a WD or two prior to unloading. But I've moved away a bit from that idea and am trying fewer, more elite models with the Viks.

Finally, at 35 SS, I would say that a 5 SS pool is the absolute smallest you can get away with. Viks need Stones for hitting and getting hit, they really need them.

If I was going to make a single change to your list right now I would drop the SoC and upgrade a Ronin to (the rumored to be released soon) Vanessa. Save you a SS overall for the cache, too.

Why do viks need stones for hitting? Sword vik is paired combat 7 with fury up and min damage 5. With the +3 to duel totals up she is effectively paired 10. The only time she needs to use ss to hit a model are more often than not if sword vik goes master hunting and said master is def7 or better. I fail to see the logic behind needing to burn a bunch of ss's on a sword vik attack activation.

[Drool_bucket]

three main reasons for needing SS in a Viks crew.

Making middling Masks in your hands/flips become hits to keep whirlwind going.

two, for defensive flips... Viks are the biggest glass cannon Master in the game.

three, for Wd prevention flips.

Plus, I regularly use 2/3 more to bring a Vik back.

So, you're correct, the hitting part is not the reason for the stones... it's the defense stuff.

I won't usually take less than 5 in a 30-35 SS game, I will settle for 4 in a 25 SS game if I think a particular minion is more important, but usual I take whatever game level is agreed upon and build a crew 5 Stones less.

And then there's Von Schill. I am not an avid Viks/Von Schill player because I think the combo is very powerful and not a lot of fun to play against. I have players complain about the Viks, let alone with Von Schill. But, when I do, I will try to have 7 or 8, and only at 30 SS... preferred a full 35 stone game.

edit: And I rarely if ever get to use Sister in Fury or whatever their buffing spell is... I am too busying using AP to get places and kill things, which there raw stats are good enough for. The only time I consider it is if both Viks are engaged at start of turn and I can companion them and kill everything around them, one will buff the other.... but that's pretty rare because usually sword Vik is off on her own after being sling shot into the enemy and the Gun Vik is retreating to make another sword Vik...

Edited March 5, 2013 by Drool_bucket

[Odin1981]

So basically if you are attacked by a non master (ss user actually) you only need ss's for 2 reasons: wd prevention, and middle masks.

Most vik lists I play at 35ss I typically use 4-6 ss cache (granted different strokes for different folks and all that). Unless you blow your load (hand) on a perfect storm scenario (3+ models within whirlwind range).

I agree on avoiding von schill. I tend not to use him as well. However if I were in a 16+ event declaring outcasts I would consider using him after round 2.

You don't use sister spell at all? Sword vik threat range from transport gun vik is 15" if you just walk once with gun vik. If you walk twice its 20" but like you said no buff spell. I would gather with 1 walk plus buff plus fast as push vik to x you can generally deliver sword vik buffed wherever you need unless you are playing against extreme mobility (collodi+dolls, krai, colette, dreamer) in basically 90% of masters unless your meta is very mobile centric?

[micahwc]

I have played a lot against the Viks and I see them use stones for combat all the time. Every game; however, I usually use Lilith with 7 or 8 stones for defense. Her average defense with a soul stone is like 24 on the first hit, and effectively 26 after the first miss.

[Drool_bucket]

People play things differently, that's for sure. I use lots of stones for the Viks, mostly for the three reasons. I rarely ever use it on a INI flip unless my opponent is say, 5 or under and has a few less stones than I have.

This is one of the great things about Malifaux... the rule set is so deep and the mechanics offer such a wide range of possibilities that people can use the same Master slightly different and still obtain results.

[MudgeBlack]

I've been having fun running Jack Daw with the Viks. His aura shutting down cheating and SS use within 6" combined with sword Vik's paired attack has resulted in many dead enemy (including Izamu) and is great for killing masters. Not sure how competitive it is but definitely fun.

[PokiePrawn]

First, to odin1981's point, those + to damage and CB come at the price of AP. Sometimes it is better to have 1-3 good hits vs 2-5 weaker hits, but not always.

As for Lilith, this is exactly what happened in my last Vics game. I hit high with the Vics, and Lilith cheated and SSed to take 0 or minimal damage. I even WW of my own Specialist to try to get another shot at her (which I am pretty sure you can do). She then did the same to the Vics, but they are more fragil, wrecking them. My problem was that I had not forced her to use her SS earlier in the game to give me the advantage.

Anyway this is where player strategy and tactics come into play.

Interesting debate!

[Adran]

Why do viks need stones for hitting? Sword vik is paired combat 7 with fury up and min damage 5. With the +3 to duel totals up she is effectively paired 10. The only time she needs to use ss to hit a model are more often than not if sword vik goes master hunting and said master is def7 or better. I fail to see the logic behind needing to burn a bunch of ss's on a sword vik attack activation.

Few points.

Firstly Unerrign Accuracy is, in my opinion, pointless. The bonus +3 only applies if you have already hit. In my mind that meants it is then only useful if you naturally beat the opponent by 3, 4 or 5 (and they aren't hard to wound). And then only if you are going top want to cheat damage.

And even in those circumstances I would almost always prefer the damage boost of fury anyway. Spendign a moderate to turn that 3 into a 4 or a severe to get a 6 is not as good as doing 5 at weak and not being able to cheat.

Fury is a great effect and I believe that if 1 Viktoria is already engaged, then she is probably better off castign Sisters in battle to gain fury. 2 attacks at 5/6/8 will do more damage than 3 attacks on 3/4/6 unless you manage to get 3 severe damage flips. Armour and hard to wound make the 2 hard attacks even better. Unless I am only facing 1 model thnat has 3 or less wounds, or i am facing a swarm of 3 or lower wound models I would rather have 1 attack less but with better damage. Its also generally less resource intensive for me. The only defensive ability that might make me question castign fury is hard to kill, and then it pobably needs to be on 7 wounds left to make the extra attack a better option.

Finally I have never ever been in a game where I have wanted to cast Another one. It costs 2 stones and a great card (so probably 3 stones). I would nromally have spent those resources on keeping the Viktoria alive in the first place. There are a few circumstances where I might ahve lost a Vik and couldn't have prevented it ( in Jack Daws no chestign or stone aura, or turned into a manniquin)

[Yuanti]

I think "another one" is a red herring. For 99% of games, it is better if you just refine/change your tactics to prevent the Vic from dying in the first place. You can always use Defensive Stance action. Her defense of 6 is only poor if you are getting hit by a big heavy weight. Using defensive stance against Lilith drops her change to hit you from 55% to 15%. So if you are not going to drop your target, drop in Defensive Stance and you will likely survive or at least cause them to drop their whole hand/soul stone cache on you.

[Gorbad]

Disappearing Act, and thus Mannequin Replacement, can't target masters so the Viks are safe from that particular kill effect.

And I'd agree with Another One being a distraction. It might come up, but odds are you are much better of putting the resources into not getting the Vik killed, or doing more with the remaining one.

[micahwc]

As for Lilith, this is exactly what happened in my last Vics game. I hit high with the Vics, and Lilith cheated and SSed to take 0 or minimal damage. I even WW of my own Specialist to try to get another shot at her (which I am pretty sure you can do). She then did the same to the Vics, but they are more fragil, wrecking them. My problem was that I had not forced her to use her SS earlier in the game to give me the advantage.

Interesting debate!

I think that Lilith versus the Viks is always a fun match. For me it seems to always come down to who commits first. If Lilith survives an assault from pointy Vik, she will most likely kill her on her activation. Lilith and Lady J are also fun.

[PokiePrawn]

A couple of times I have had a Vic taken out in turn 1 or 2 from bad placement or a lucky Red Joker. In those cases I have used 'Another One', but after about turn 4 it does not really make sense. At that point those resources are better used elsewhere.

[Joel]

I see Viks + Vanessa + Von Schill as too much of a drain on soulstones for the crew to sustain. It would require the rest of the crew to be 2 ronin simply to keep the stones coming! Since you'd need to sacrifice them both, most likely, you will have 3/4 signifcant models only to complete your strategy/schemes.

its something I would consider for beatdown in the new gaining grounds, but probably not much else.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I think the mobility of Schill and Vanessa combined with the hitting power of the viks makes them a reasonable choices for most any situation. The remaining 10 SS can go toward either 2 ronin as mentioned, or some desperate mercs to help with the early activations for the first couple of turns. With the viks ability to be hitting whirlwind triggers on turn 2 I have usually found the numbers game really doesn't matter after the first couple of turns.

[Joel]

maybe I need more experience with them - I'm only 10-12 games in with them and yet to use VS in the crew. I have played against it often though and found it to be easy to burn them out of stones and force opponents to over-extend. Vanessa helps curb this a little though.

Viks

Von schill

Vanessa

student of conflict

2 ronin

only leaves a 6ss cache at 35ss though...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Joel

[Inquisitor Wall]

They certainly eat through stones quicker than any other master I have encountered. The biggest trick I have found with them is making sure that you are very careful with how you use them. I often find that if I am using Von Schill in the list that I use most of my SS to make healing flips with him. While I don't feel this is a waste as he tends to do a great deal of objective grabbing and such, it does mean there will be fewer available to the Victoria's, which means they will become more sacrificial than if I was playing without Von Schill.

[Joel]

would you consider jack daw in teh crew instead of von schill? He won't drain stones, can strike from range and has that nasty, nasty aura that could help the viks slaughter opposing soulstone users.

[zanntos]

I haven't had a chance to try them out in my Viktoria crew yet, but both Vanessa and the Freikorp Strongarm Suit might not be bad options. in place of a couple Ronin.

Student of Conflict and the Librarian are almost always in my Viktoria teams, and are excellent choices.

[MudgeBlack]

would you consider jack daw in teh crew instead of von schill? He won't drain stones, can strike from range and has that nasty, nasty aura that could help the viks slaughter opposing soulstone users.

I frequently run Jack Daw with them, his survivability coupled with his aura is great. No cheat or SS combined with sword Viks paired really tears through opposing models.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I've had great luck running jack daw against guild which was limited on magical attacks expecting a standard vik crew. He is pretty awesome and the card drawing from the viks helps keep him alive. Jack daw has always worked well when I've used him, but I tend to over look him for Von Schill simply due to Von schills ability to help achieve strategies.

[Joel]

My standard crew uses neither, but its always good to get opinions on the options. If going to 45 stones, I'd fit one of the two of them in

My current build focuses on card drawing and inter-model synergy, with less emphasis on slingshots. So far, its proved itself in every strategy I've flipped, and when flipping/being denied schemes.

played so far (some multiple times):

a line in the sand

contain power

plant evidence

reconnoiter

slaughter

supply wagon

schemes:

bodyguard

gather soulstones

assassinate

kill protoge

grudge

hold out

stake a claim

breakthrough

first blood

extermination

eye for an eye

[Guy in Suit]

If you use anything besides Fury with SoB you are doing it wrong.

Also Student of Conflict is the Bees Knees. I'm yet to be convinced Vanessa is viable for the sole reason that I can't have my student. Student gives you an SoB cast at least every other turn. Totally worth 3SS.

We will see what Viks players run at Adepticon, but I think it should be obvious from last year what my lists will look like

[Lucidicide]

If you use anything besides Fury with SoB you are doing it wrong.

Also Student of Conflict is the Bees Knees. I'm yet to be convinced Vanessa is viable for the sole reason that I can't have my student. Student gives you an SoB cast at least every other turn. Totally worth 3SS.

We will see what Viks players run at Adepticon, but I think it should be obvious from last year what my lists will look like

I can confirm that this man knows his Viks, and his opinion should be given much weight.

[Joel]

Von Schill can still take a student. Best of both worlds perhaps?