why didn't wyrd make avatars more interesting

[Omenbringer]

The forums are a highly biased, statistically insignificant, self-selected sample. It is a good thing that Wyrd doesn't bow to our opinions on these matters.

Defiantely agree I mean its not like forumites provided any assistance at all with identifying and solving the problems with the Lilith Filth list, Som'er Inifinite Red Joker Draw, Infinite Skeeter Activations, Hamelin, Alp Bombs, Lady Justice Pine Box trick, Avatar Viktoria manifesting, Resolution order of Triggers, Explaining Companion, and...many, many others.

Gruesome has it right when he says

The fact is that these forums are possibly the best feedback mechanism currently available as to how things are working within the game system for the greater populace...that they are not speaking for their communities, many of whom may not be posters...

A lot of forumites do represent and post for their local communities on the boards. Opinions and experiences may differ vastly on any given subject, but each of these discussions provides the kind of data that is very difficult to get by any other method.

[CRC]

The forumites provide all kinds of assistance. But they are only a single data point.

It would be just as foolish of Wyrd to ignore the forums as to bow to our wishes.

I just want people to understand that the forum is only a single data point, and probably does not accurately reflect the majority of Malifaux players.

[Kadeton]

The forums represent a great deal more than the 1% of players you suggest. That's a statistic that's closer to true for games like Warhammer, which do not have a centralised online community or any direct communication with the people who write the rules.

A quick search shows that there are over 1000 forum accounts who have been active in the last 3 months, which seems a reasonable length of time (it's roughly double that at 6 months). I would be mightily surprised, flabbergasted even, if there were 100,000 Malifaux players worldwide. Only Wyrd has any sort of idea of the actual numbers, but I wouldn't be overly shocked to find that it was less than 5000, and that the majority of those did not play regularly. (The Kickstarter numbers, as an additional indicator, are around 1200.)

Just putting things into perspective. You're right that the boards are not the entire community, but in this case they almost certainly do actually represent a large chunk of it.

Personally, I think that having certain crappy Avatars is just another symptom of Wyrd's success - they're so busy creating new content to feed the machine that it doesn't make financial sense to spend the hours on going back and re-balancing all the crappy models in the game. It would be nice to see the bad ones brought up to snuff, but there's a lot of models waiting in line before we get to Avatars, in my opinion.

[nix]

Personally, I think that having certain crappy Avatars is just another symptom of Wyrd's success - they're so busy creating new content to feed the machine that it doesn't make financial sense to spend the hours on going back and re-balancing all the crappy models in the game. It would be nice to see the bad ones brought up to snuff, but there's a lot of models waiting in line before we get to Avatars, in my opinion.

There is also a very large aspect of what one group or two groups think is bad, another 2-3 groups think is really very good. There are lots of situations I have seen where I have a very very strong opinion that a model (or set of models) is actually crap overall. Travel around the US and playing games with players who do not jump onto the forums much has shown that these same models are considered fantastic in other play groups.

I know for a fact that Wyrd takes a large amount of feedback, especially when it comes to the Avatars and the latest book 4 models. I also believe that the claims of certain models (avatars, masters, or minions) are louder and more prevalent on the "complaint" or "criticism" side than on the defense side. Basically, more people complain about than are willing to defend a model/rule/game/etc.

[Nyarlanthotep]

I agree wholeheartedly. The people that post most on a topic are those that feel strongest about it, which is only natural. But this can lead to situations where things look very skewed on the forum. For example the Red Joker debate. If you looked at the post on the subject you would think that everything fell into 2 camps, those that thought that Red Jokers were the most broken part of the game, and those that really liked what they brought to the game, and this split was maybe 60/40. Then you do a poll of what people think, and all the people that lurk on the forum vote and what you find is a very different picture and probably closer to what is actually out there.. with 5% having real issue with the rule, about 10% thinking it should maybe be tweaked a bit and about 85% who either had no issue or really liked the Red Joker the way it is (note these are from memory, memory can fail us old fogeys).

IE forums while useful don't give the whole picture without some futher investigation.

Also have you noticed how the Avatars seem to be in two camps, the stronger Masters get Avatars that are generally side shifts in what the Master does, while the weaker masters get a bit of a buff. I'm not sure if it was intended this way, but would make some sense as a way to balance things a bit.

[ladyrainicorn]

Also have you noticed how the Avatars seem to be in two camps, the stronger Masters get Avatars that are generally side shifts in what the Master does, while the weaker masters get a bit of a buff. I'm not sure if it was intended this way, but would make some sense as a way to balance things a bit.

I was thinking this might be their intent, looking at the dreamer's avatar (who is already a strong master) it seems like they've made him more fun by giving him area effects, there is no argument that this form is not as 'strong' as the Dreamer master. Im keen to play aDreamer (haven't had a chance yet) just because he DOES seem fun to play.

Although... am i the only one who was dissapointed with aDreamer aesthetically? The fact that you can see so little of chompy is not good, and it's so 2D.

And yet. Kirai isnt a 'strong' master (not in the same league as dreamer) and her avatar does almost nothing for her team, considering her play style and the models you are going to be taking with her. So if their intent was to make stronger avatars for models who are otherwise weaker, and to make different/fun avatars for masters who are already strong, it seems they've only partially succeeded.

I've also got aRasputina and aZoraida, none of which i've fielded yet. AZoraida looks like a strong avatar (on an already 'strong' master), aRasputina i think could be useful toward the end of the game (although play style seems totally different to master raspy), but aKirai... kirai was my first crew, her avatar had just come out and i bought it, i was REALLY dissapointed, reading her card. Considering, to use the avatar you lose Kirai herself, lost love, AND Ikiryo, in order to gain one model who is like a mix of kirai and Ikiryo whilst being as good as neither... i don't know that i'll end up using her avatar, which is just a complete waste of $40 (aesthetically, it isnt a terrible model, but its nothing special either).

I have 4 avatars and they're all either 'meh' or bad, which doesn't seem right to me. The people i play against have avatars but i've only seen one actually used (Nicodem), nobody else bothers with them even though they own the models.

I don't think that avatars need to be a 'better' version of the master in every way, but having them excel in one area (making sure they are still balanced - so having other weaknesses to make up for it) in which the master is already at least decent in, would be the way to go.

I definitely think some avatars need revisiting and improving anyway (ahem *cough*kirai*cough*), just my two cents.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that the Avatars are an extremely mixed bag and I'm a bit weirded out how some of them passed playtesting. aColette, aHoffmann, aDreamer... a lateral shift, yes, but also a severe downward shift. These I can sorta accept that the playtesters responsible for these just weren't very experienced or played in a completely strange meta or something but then the true headscratchers are Avatars like aMarcus or aPerdita which just kinda downgrade the Master for almost no gain.

All in all I think that book 3 is a very strange book in that stuff like aRamos or Warden or aSonnia are clearly powerful options but then the vast majority of the book is filled with absolute chaff. Some people claim that they are mostly just extremely situational but that's only true of some. I mean, Latigo Pistoleros aren't situational, they just out and out suck.

Finally, a quick note on something that was said:

What about worthless models which may or may not look amazing, but hardly ever get played because it can be frustrating to play with subpar models. Steamborg executioner, mercenary hamelin, Hans, Molly. Razorspine rattler. Wendigo.

Mercenary Hamelin subpar? He seems to be well regarded on the forums and I personally think he's extremely good and the most scary model in my friend's Vic crew. He's extremely versatile and brings to the table stuff that is hard to come by in other models. I mean, he is certainly on the expensive side but absolutely nowhere near Razorspine Rattler or Ice Golem -level.

[Csonti]

And yet. Kirai isnt a 'strong' master (not in the same league as dreamer) and her avatar does almost nothing for her team, considering her play style and the models you are going to be taking with her. So if their intent was to make stronger avatars for models who are otherwise weaker, and to make different/fun avatars for masters who are already strong, it seems they've only partially succeeded.

Strange that you see Kirai that way. In my book (after Hamelin and Dreamer cuddle) Kirai is one of the strongest (maybe even the strongest) master out there. Of course this is just an opinion and everybody is entitled to have one.

[ladyrainicorn]

Strange that you see Kirai that way. In my book (after Hamelin and Dreamer cuddle) Kirai is one of the strongest (maybe even the strongest) master out there. Of course this is just an opinion and everybody is entitled to have one.

I suppose i mean, in terms of Kirai (herself's) offensive abilities/attacks.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Kirai herself doesn't need extremely offensive abilities, as she is incredibly quick, although with the new strats that might be a little less important, but more importantly she really increases the effectiveness of her crew. She is an extremely synergistic master where, if she is with her intended crew, she is going to shine quite brightly, but if you were to look at the master, just alone, they sort of look flat.

[Omenbringer]

There is a lot to be said for crew synergy and support Masters. Take a look at Som'er Teeth Jones, it wasn't that long ago that he was universally shunned as a sub-par Master/ crew only to be called competitive (and even extremely broken) later.

[ladyrainicorn]

I didnt mean Kirai was rubbish, i enjoy playing her and win fairly often with her too. I think, as a model herself, her offensive powers aren't on par with a lot of other masters is what i mean... as in, not including crew

[The Godlyness]

AColette gives you 3 more model to play Colette with. i find it entertaining to use illusionist and when switching the model put one of the other Colette in and say "she had time to change outfits while making soulstones" Tried playing her avatar once or twice, never worked out for me. specially after losing after doing so when i had the game in the bag lol.