Please Discuss Hamelin Errata HERE

[Keltheos]

Please discuss the Hamelin errata posted in: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?37795-HAMELIN-ERRATA-(OR-maybe-the-world-is-ending-after-all) here.

[yames]

To many clauses.

Rats always activate simultaneously anyway, so chances there are other rats in range are good.

I am however interested in whether: if the rat does die in its own activation, is voracious rats ignored for that rat? Do corpse counters, etc still drop?

i'm confused am i missing something other rats in range hurts you more since you cant kill the other rats durning the rat(or any model) who hit you's turn when you are using slow to die and black blood and etc. unless your saying that when they simultaneously activate they are open to killing?

for example(correct me if im wrong i could have this all wrong in my head) lets say rat catcher goes uses herding rats removes slow from all his rats withen 6 then performs a melee attack kills my punk zombie durning his slow to die i can only kill that rat catcher(or other non rat models) so instead of slice and dice (i think thats his pulse that does 3) and killing all those rats which then they resummon(or not summoned at all if the ratcatcher also died from the ablity and no other was whiten 6) with slow i am forced into doing an option that is not as good in my eyes. I feel like herding rats penalizes an army with slow to die, black blood and etc. due to not being able to kill any rats (unless its that exact rats turn)

[Ausplosions]

Firstly, what does herd rats have to do with anything?

Secondly, if we do it your way:

My rats are the last models to activate this turn...

My rat writhing masses to another in base to base with your terror tot. -1 wound.

I hit you doing damage. Black blood -1 wound

Rat dies, new rat spawns

New rat attacks terror tot.

Cycle begins again.

I can take any model with black blood down this way.

It was one of the problems with original Hamelin .

It is much better that odd interactions with slow to die occur than we get infinite rats again.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ausplosions

[yames]

i mentioned herd rats because it was giving a situation where killing a model who comes back to life would be beneficial (in this case you drop every rat from having 2 actions to having 1 action)

i guess i have never ran into that situation (granted i don't use my lilth that often) but i guess i'm trying to point out and create discussion that maybe there is a way to make the ability "they are just rats" do what i think it is intended to do (stop infinite rats) while not penalizing the player who is vsing hamlen (because i think the goal is to make it so he doesn't just suck to vs)

we were play testing the new Hamlin rules and my posted issue came up i was playing Hamlin my brother was playing Nicodiem he had killed hamlin (which is do able now Yay!) my two rat catchers had already went i had a few(3) rats that were no longer in a bubble of voracious rats due to hamelins death i killed a punk zombie who hadnt went so to limit his actions and was near those rats with his slow to die action he could only poetenially kill that one rat instead of all of them. I feel like this is a case where he wasnt rewarded and couldn't take advantage of a good situation that he created by removing my hamelin (and a bad move on my part with the rat catchers placement).

my suggested change may not be the best approach to accomplishing it but thats why its a disscusion page im sure as a collective group we can come up with something that helps fix the issue with causing as little extra loopholes in the system( and maybe the current way is that)

what if instead of theyre just rats. Voracious rats was worded in a way such that it summoned a rat that was already considerd to have activated this turn?

or if theyre just rats was the effect if this models death where summon a rat it is considered to be activated.

Edited January 11, 2013 by yames
because my grammar is horrible

[decker_cky]

what if instead of theyre just rats. Voracious rats was worded in a way such that it summoned a rat that was already considerd to have activated this turn?

or if theyre just rats was the effect if this models death where summon a rat it is considered to be activated.

I think summon a rat with paralyzed would be the easiest way to word that.

[yames]

you are probably right.

another idea is add within 6" of a model with voracious rats to the current wording of they're just rats. ( i would stop the infinite rats from black blood while still letting black blood kill off rats if there wasn't a rat catcher around but slow to die would still take a minor hit some of the time)

thow i like the summon with paralyzed idea better (can Hamelin bring a model that removes paralyzed?)

[Ausplosions]

It works fine as is.

[Kadeton]

I think the current version is fine. The interaction between Rats and Black Blood, Necrotic Spray etc works well. I don't really see a big problem with Slow to Die - certainly it's now fine for the Executioner, and Punk Zombies were never able to kill off the swarm with their pulse anyway. The new version is functional without being overly complicated.

[yames]

punk zombies were able to kill off a swarm if no rat catcher was whiten 6" inches now that isn't true. I think thats my biggest issue is that if you somehow manged to get multiple rats out of a voracious rats bubble(or in a gremlin crew) you still cant kill them with effects like black blood necrotic spray any shatter ablity, slow to die or due to friendly fire with a pulse/blast.

i also personally think that changing they're just rats to ":if this models death were to summon a malifiux rat the summoned rat receives paralyzed instead of slow" is simpler then its current wording

i guess i'm interested to see why you guys think the current way is the best. I understand that it works the way it is currently but while they haven't reprinted the cards yetm is the best time to come up with the best possible solution to the problem.

also does anymodel have a trigger/effect that has a benifical(like healing) effect when hitting a model with an attack or spell. because you can bring merc hamelin pay 3 for a rat and then wail on it all you like since you cant kill it.

I cant think of any major ones right now but i know Izumu(unless his card says enemy model) could hit it if he did severe he would heal without killing the rat.

I know they cant be reduced to below 1 wd but do you still technically do damage to them? if so i think mc mourning could wail on the rat and generate body part counters

Edited January 11, 2013 by yames

[egoon]

i also personally think that changing they're just rats to ":if this models death were to summon a malifiux rat the summoned rat receives paralyzed instead of slow" is simpler then its current wording

Paralyzing summoned rats will have some other side-effects that might be problematic, though.

First off they will loose their ability to block disengaging models (I think that's an effect of paralyze).

Also if you manage to kill a bunch of rats before they have activated, the Hamelin player loses a lot of activations, because the summoned rats are all paralyzed. To counter that it would have to say something like: 'if this models dies before it has activated and were to summon a malifiux rat, the summoned rat receives paralyzed instead of slow'.

I still don't think that would be a good idea.

Maybe have a replace effect instead of a summon...

[Adran]

punk zombies were able to kill off a swarm if no rat catcher was whiten 6" inches now that isn't true. I think thats my biggest issue is that if you somehow manged to get multiple rats out of a voracious rats bubble(or in a gremlin crew) you still cant kill them with effects like black blood necrotic spray any shatter ablity, slow to die or due to friendly fire with a pulse/blast.

i also personally think that changing they're just rats to ":if this models death were to summon a malifiux rat the summoned rat receives paralyzed instead of slow" is simpler then its current wording

i guess i'm interested to see why you guys think the current way is the best. I understand that it works the way it is currently but while they haven't reprinted the cards yetm is the best time to come up with the best possible solution to the problem.

I cant think of any major ones right now but i know Izumu(unless his card says enemy model) could hit it if he did severe he would heal without killing the rat.

I know they cant be reduced to below 1 wd but do you still technically do damage to them? if so i think mc mourning could wail on the rat and generate body part counters

If the only thing is the time a swarm of rats moves beyond a Voracous rats range and on its own activation kills a model with slow to die and an area effect (or effect upon beign damaged) then I think they have done a fairly good job of not causing unexpected changes.

Particually since all the problems seem to be only if it is done on the rats own turn and it isn't in Voracous rats range. If they end up leaving their rats there (which they probably will have to do) then you should have minimal problems wrapping up the swarm in your turn most of the time.

The McMorning doesn't work as its after damaging defender, and if the model does no wounds its not damaging the defender. It would be similar in effect doing 2 or fewer damage to a Strongarm suit or fliping the black joker for damage.

Edit - The italic text is wrong. Working on old rulings. Ignore

Your suggestion of killing the model, still getting a rat all be it paralysed removes the multiple rat activation but doesn't remove the killing your own rat for bonuses which was also abusable.

Not having actually played the new rules, The official changes do seem to have prevented more of the abuses seen than your suggestion would, and with minimal alteration to the flavour of the rule (in my opinion).

Edited January 18, 2013 by Adran
rules error

[Ausplosions]

punk zombies were able to kill off a swarm if no rat catcher was whiten 6" inches now that isn't true

It still can in its own activation...

Simpler, sure. But do you want rats to be a timesink of models doing nothing but getting removed and replaced?

Cause that's how it works when done the way you propose.

No, playtesting an errata is the time to do that. And that has already been done. I'm sure your suggestion or something similar was tried and deemed unsuitable.

True but it is hardly difficult to kill that opponents single rat...

Seriously, if you are counting on slow to die and black blood to win it for you anyway, your doing it wrong..

[yames]

i'm not saying my suggestions are the absolute best way to deal with this i'm just saying between all of us maybe we can come up with a better way. I just feel like it can be taken advantage of by a hamelin player. If my rats are out of a voracious rats bubble and there is something like an ice gamin or stalker any model with slow to die or any model with black blood then i should kill him with a unimportant rat so i don't lose more then one rat or a more important rat(such as one basing an objective).

i'm not saying you should be counting on slow to die and black blood to win but should a model that is causing problems and is currently being changed still nullify a set of abilities which together are on a lot of models even at times when they could be useful? when there is possibly a way to get the both of best worlds. granted yes you don't want to make it so complex that yea it is really difficult to understand.

and i'm sure it has been play tested but not everything is always caught or thought of during play testing thow malifiux does have a great set of play testers it seems. and i would be interested to hear from play testers (if they are able) some of the other things they tried and what made them not go with that and such.

would adding while within 6" of a model with voracious rats to "they're just rats" make the ability that much more difficult? to me personally no, but i am just one of the many who play this game and i'm sure many disagree.

[Kadeton]

I can see the appeal of limiting "They're just rats..." to only the ones affected by Voracious Rats for a sense of verisimilitude, but it honestly hasn't been a problem for me. If a swarm is outside the reach of Voracious Rats, you should expect them all to be dead on the opponent's next activation anyway - and they can't do much, because they'll also be Insignificant. The situations you're describing don't come up often, and don't have much impact on play.

Edit: Not that I'm saying you're wrong or that you shouldn't talk about it, though! Maybe try out a few games with the new Hamelin rules as they are, and then a few with your house rules, and see how each one feels?

[yames]

thow they are insignificant hamelins dog if within 6" removes that and i guess i see stopping something from using an objective an important move many times on line in the sand i will engage models next to the dynamite markers just so they cant flip them and if i have slow to die(or other death/hit effect) to give myself one last chance to stop them from pulling it off.

Now i do agree that these situations do not come up that often

i do plan on trying out some different things this weekend when i get a chance to play but i figure there will be things i'm missing that maybe someone else will pick up on so i will no about them going into the game (such as the black blood thing i didn't think of that)

plus its Friday and its a slow day at work so i have time to think

[Boshea]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but one significant change has been made by the new "They're Just Rats" wording that I feel makes up for any complaints people have about defensive effects. A Rat can only ever "Writhing Mass" once now since it can die during its own turn under the new ruling. With no way to refresh a rat on your own turn this means that Writhing Mass is now just a one use speed boost, versus it being usable every turn through "Slaughter Rats" or "They're Just Rats"1.0.

[Ausplosions]

The first rule of playtesting, Is don't talk about playtesting.

I'm sure everything that should have been tried was.

They problems you are having with black blood are the unfortunate side effect of making a Hamelin crew fun to play against.

[cain]

But this side effect means, playing against a black blood heavy neverborn crew is a bit futile.

You sacrifice one model to do 1-2 dam. You need about 3 rats to kill a 3ss terror tot. And get only one back.

[ravenborne]

So I played one game with Hamelin so far with the new rules. Its not nearly so easy to keep Ratcatchers or Hamelin alive anymore, and movement is a tricky business, so its much easier to get into a situation where rats are out of the range of Hamelin and the catchers.

The biggest difficulty is moving everyone so they stay in all the new ranges you want them in. Stolen within three of Hamelin is difficult without companion. Stolen are probably not even worth hiring anymore, just summon them. Rats lose slow but that just means its easy to move them far out of range of the ratcatchers, so what I found is the hamelin crew has to make this slow and purposeful march across the table until the wave of vermin hits the opponent. I barely won the game, and it honestly came down to the fact that my opponent spent most of his activations trying to kill the "now killable models", and meantime I got my VPs.

Funny thing is, you suddenly begin to notice that the cards are full of abilities that were not often used before. Like the fact that rats are Tiny, and have -flips to shoot at. Who ever shot a rat before? This makes them harder to remove than you would think.

I did run into a model with Blackblood as well. Turns out if you are facing models with Black Blood, you have other options. Rat swarming may not be the best idea. Hamelin's version of obey is pretty useful, as are his pipes. Controlling Blackblood models to get them away from your rats is nice.

He just plays differently and is slower and more fragile, but he is still quite fun, and the opponent feels like he can do something to your crew. But Hamelin can still win.

My thoughts on my first game with him.

Edited January 12, 2013 by ravenborne

[yames]

thanks for the thoughts ravenborne. i got sick over the weekend so i only got one game in sadly it wasn't with hamelin but i talk to one of our other hamelin players and he to echoed you on the its hard to get use to keeping the stolen withen 3" but he thought with time it will become second nature. he personly felt the biggest hurt(and his least favorite) to the army was the nihilism whiten 6" now limiting you alot more on missions like line in the sand. but not to the point it wasnt possible. He did say that the new wording of theyre just rats, he felt would help him have a more fighting chance in slaughter missions.

also i had a question the new Nihilism doesn't have the line about models losing insignificant at the end of the encounter if this model is in play. does that effect anything? when your figuring up victory points for things like stake a claim or treasure hunt are models withen 6 still not insignificant at that time?

[Ausplosions]

If they are within 6" at the end of the encounter they are not considered insignificant.

Just as if two canine remains are within 6 of each other at the end of a game they count as significant.

[azimaith]

I don't get this:

"They're Just Rats": This model may not be reduced to less than 1Wd during another friendly model's activation. Friendly Malifaux Rat models cannot be Summoned in response to this model being killed during its own activation.

So I can sit there with Nyx and bite rats trying to trigger Stink of Death with no chance of killing it no matter what I flip, but if I try and use Writhing Mass to move a rat when I have the Avatar out my rat instantly dies because of blight counters and I get no new rats.

If there's a problem with rat cycling because they kill themselves, why not reduce rats to 1 wound and change it so none of the abilities cause the rats to hurt themselves.

You'd not only solve the problem with replicating rats without this really counter-intuitive rule but you'd also remove a huge amount of the book keeping because they don't have to keep track of rats stupid wounds, which to me is the worst part of playing Hamelin.

The idea that some abilities of rats suddenly become useless because you get an avatar strikes me as poorly planned.

[Lucidicide]

I don't get this:

"They're Just Rats": This model may not be reduced to less than 1Wd during another friendly model's activation. Friendly Malifaux Rat models cannot be Summoned in response to this model being killed during its own activation.

The first part makes it so you can't just kill rats for your own benefit. The second part makes it so that they can't respawn themselves from things like Black Blood.

It's actually a really straightforward rule that works well with the game -- the wording just comes out a bit funny.

The idea that some abilities of rats suddenly become useless because you get an avatar strikes me as poorly planned.

Yes, it is unfortunate that they can't use Writhing Mass. Not a big deal, though, as you're unlikely to take the Avatar for completely independent reasons :-P

[Ausplosions]

Whats wrong with AHamelin?

[azimaith]

Avatar Hamelin gives all rats blight tokens. So writhing mass makes you take a wound, the wound becomes two, and the rat dies instantly as it only has two wounds. You can't get a new rat because its on the rats activation, thus you can not use writhing mass at all with avatar.

I actually like the avatar, in lots of ways I feel like he's more representative what Hamelin is supposed to be because he goes around spreading blight counters and summoning packs of rats with pipers lure.

I don't get normal Hamelin, especially stolen after the cuddle. Its not that I can't understand that it wasn't a good game mechanic to make everyone insignificant or how you could make infinite loops, but I don't feel like he has a very strong theme anymore.

Voracious rats is the only rule that screams "Hamelin" to me anymore.

[Lucidicide]

Whats wrong with AHamelin?

aHammy? My opinion would take too long to type, and not really be important. He can be fun to field, and that's what's important :-D