An Aversion To High SS Models?

[D-A-C]

Hey everyone.

I was just wondering if anyone else suffers from an aversion to high SS costing models and if I am maybe missing anything by playing this way?

Basically, atm I run Seamus, am new to Kirai and will be expanding into Nicodem soon, so basically I am going total rezzers.

However, when playing at my local gaming group people always suggest that I try out Molly or Undead Rider in a 25-35ss game and I really just shudder at the thought.

I always look at high costing models and think I could have x2 Belles, x2 Doxies, x2 Crooked Men, x2 Punk Zombies, x3 Necropunks or even x4 Canine Remains (which I can turn into something better), etc, etc, for the price of that one model.

Now in higher SS brawls (around 50) I am all for using henchmen like Molly with Seamus, adding in a second totem, using Undead Rider, Jack Daw etc but in small games I really just don't see why people are always taking high SS models. Am I missing something? Is my thinking fundamentally unsound?

I know you build your crew to fit your strategy and schemes but I really never see an instance were I would want to invest 1/3 of my SS's in a model in order to pursue a strategy.

That's why I love the fact that rezzers can turn really cheap models into big scary ones. Why buy a Rogue Necromancy for 8ss when I can build one with McMourning for 3ss total (canine remain + totem)?

In my gaming group 25ss is the 'standard' game and I am always amused when I see people running my main Master Seamus along with Molly, Undead Rider or even Hanged ... I just sit there thinking WTF are you doing? Even when they win I just think they could have done better with different models.

I haven't been playing Malifaux long, and am still getting used to the in & outs of the game, but do you guys think I am wrong for avoiding higher SS models in order to have more cheaper ones instead? Does anyone else have this philosophy when choosing models for their crews? Are there any high costing Rezzer models that tend to justify their cost?

[CloudFang]

good question... i wouldnt mind hearin some people speak up on this... ive been playing 25 ss and lately have tried adding bette noir at 9 ss and it seems like so much of a sink when its close to half your crew.. i feel like 2 -3 other models is far more efficient?

[Oscilioth]

When my Brother and I first started we wondered whether or not it was worth it add it in the bigger costed models when the cheaper ones seemed to do just as well.

Eventually we came to move past trying to just swarm the opponent with cheap guys. More expensive models tend to have higher utility, and especially for the Resurrectionists they tend to have stronger support abilities.

I never leave home without Mortimer, he's just too integral to my plans to not have tagging along, but I can see how others would pass on him. It really boils down to the local style of play. How randomly you select strategies, schemes, locations and evend board side can affect how useful certain models are. Soulstone size is also very important, at a 25 Soulstone level I probably wouldn't take more than one higher cost minion (Unless you're someone like the Viktorias, or Perdita) but at the 35 points level you start to see more uses for those higher utility models.

It really depends on your local group, sometimes certain tactics that work in one area just won't work at all in another.

I think that high point minions have their place, especially in the other Factions, however Resurrectionists tend to get away with the horde option more often than not. You really have to try models out on the field of play to understand how effective they are under your command, looking at them on paper never does true justice.

[dgraz]

I often play low SS models.....4 or 5ss. Mostly 7ss is my upper limit.

Now that Misaki is in my hands, I'm happy throwing some 8ss out there.....Ototo, Kang, Taelor. Most of her new minions are 6ss anyway.

But yes, normally I believe out-activating my opponent to be the better course.

Edit: just realized this was in the Rezzer area. I'm predominantly a Guild player.

[brdparker]

Tend to think that there's the average set of models (4-6ish), and if you have a high SS-coster, the average cost should be somewhat less than that to offset. I have always found a Nico 35 SS game of this to be rather fun to play:

6SS - Nico

11 - Killjoy

8 - x4 Canine remains

8 -x2 Rotten Belles

4 - Crooked Man

1 - Grave Spirit

You're looking at a heavy hitter, and otherwise average SS of 2.6, which is minuscule. But then, Nico and the other ressers can usually make up for it whenever they need to by summoning at least a couple of times during the game.

[Kadeton]

Surely with Seamus, if you want anything other than Belles (and Doxies) then you have to buy it? It's fine to say "Oh, I'll just make something big out of this other stuff" if you're playing Nico or McM, and Kirai has a totally different set of stuff she wants to use, but Seamus doesn't have that option.

I tend to start with other stuff, and gradually get more Belles throughout the game. The Dead Rider is pretty good, but I generally prefer Molly (for fluff and because she's incredibly hard to kill, plus she makes Belles even faster).

[osoi]

I tend to play a mix, you nedd the low pointers in there for activations but the high SS models do bring some considerable benefits, as a general rule though I spend up to half my ss allowance on 7+ss models but not more so at 25ss I generally max 1 model, 30ss 1-2 and at 35 almost always 2.

I do this a lot with Seamus and McMourning I often find there benefit to starting with a Flesh Construct or some another tanky model in the initial crew plus a lot of little guys.

The mid range models (5-6ss) vary from game to game but if I am bring 2 7+ models at 35ss I will rarely also bring in a 6ss but will bring in 5ss models (Onryo are great all rounders)

[Gruesome]

I do not have an aversion, but do feel a need to know my investments are protected.

If I am facing a predominantly living crew, I do not worry that Molly is not cheap, because she is useful against living models and very hard to kill. But against some lists, she is literally pitiful, just like her card says.

Dead Rider is sort of an 11 point model for me as I would not take him without Grave Spirit, but with him, he is very durable and VERY useful for a number of things.

I look forward to "The Armor"... He is a beat stick that is capable of helping himself heal when beating things down and if he should somehow die, he can come back with Yan Lo and with Nicodem, he drops 3 corpse counters which are also incredibly useful.

6-9 point models is where I generally struggle. At 6, Sybelle is "meh" for me. At 7, Rafkin and Mortimer need to overachieve what they typically do for me to feel justified.

At 8, hanged against the right opponent are gold and against many others are dead weight. (If spirits weighed anything)

Bete Noir... She has been awesome and useless for me. For 9 points I want solid and sometimes awesome. A 4 point crooked man is capable of being solid and occasionally awesome and gamechanging, so I expect something that costs more than twice as much to pay off far more.

So, to sum it up, we have some solid low end models and mostly solid very high end models, but I feel like the 6-9 range is lacking.

[Blog]

I'd say I have a bit of an aversion. Usually if I bring a badass high cost model, it gets nuked off the board before I can use it. Or that model utterly fails me every time I use it. Last game I tried using Lazarus for the second time (first time Pandora told him to punch himself a few times and run away) and both times before he was killed, he flips a black joker on a damage flip and an attack flip. Lol.... ಠ_ಠ

Hopefully with book 4 and the new rezzer goodies, I change it up a bit and use the ancestors more as they are pretty high cost.

[DeleteAccount]

I mostly use the rule of 1 big guy and many smallish guys at 35, lower than that, the big guy stays home. This rule sort of leaves me hanging sometimes since Molly and Seamus are supposedly a good combo, but the rest of my force needs something big to compensate and I don't usually have the stones to add it unless I want anemic numbers.

I have tried a Yan Lo list with 3 ancestors (Yin hit the bench) and it worked very well, so a mostly elite force is not something we have closed to us, though being able to reraise Izamu was a huge part of it.

[kanhead]

It all comes down to what you are trying to achieve. For me I find that Nico can't leave home without the dead rider, often McMourning is in the same boat. The higher SS models tend to be tougher to kill, hit more reliably and offer greater utility. I've had the dead rider or Bete do incredible things in most games (there are occasions where a black joker on one with the night has hurt), enough to well and truely cover their SS.

The smaller models offer good abilities, many corpses and the ability to out activate, you need a good mix for support. Necropunks, belles, night terrors and to a degree punk zombies and crooked men all bring useful abilities to the table on a low cost body. BUT sometimes you positively have to get something done and they won't be able to do it. I find this issue is amplified with the overcosted 6-7ss uniques we get.

For Seamus I've had a lot of good use out of Bete Noire. Once you get the hang of her play style she'll love working with a lot of low cost minions - the opponent will never know where she will strike. She adds a lot of punch to the crew and can really help deny the opponent key models.

For Nico the Dead Rider has it all. He can tow Nico up the table, fish out enemy models for punk flurrys, hit really hard and tank even harder with a grave spirit. I haven't seen too many games where he hasn't earned his SS back or can't assist with my schemes/strategies.

Edited October 19, 2012 by kanhead

[Adran]

I think I large part of it is ressurectionist focused. You can get expensive models without paying full cost, so full cost seems like a lot.

The game size dictates how much I value expensive models. A lot of them give bonus' to the crew, and I need to have sufficient crew for the bonus to be worth while (for example Nekima and Snow storm).

Sometimes the activation control of lots of cheap models is a bonus, othertimes the power of 1 activation that a more expensive model gives you can really help. 2 Punk Zombies might put out slightly more damage than Bete Noir, but they will take two activations to do it.

[Zombie Kitt]

I have absolutely no aversion to high Stone models.

Dead Rider is too good. Bete and Killjoy do what they do very well indeed, and the new resser big guys look like they're going to do good things.

I'm more wary of our mid-level choices. But our cheapies are great

[omnivision6]

I make people have an aversion to hight ss models They have a huge target on their back. And if you know how to take out a "hard to kill" model, like Bete, then is surprises people when they loose such an expensive piece.

I use high ss models depending on master and strat. I love using Ashes and Dust with Levi. but I would never hire the Dead Rider with Kirai. Just a couple of examples.

[Valcurdra]

I am a fairly new seamus player and i too have a bit of an aversion to them. I love molly but I'm not a big fan of the other high as models.

At the moment I prefer expendable troops so I don't get have all my eggs in one basket. I also value being able to out activate my opponent quite a lot

I think as I get better at the game I'll start to enjoy the big guys a bit mote

[FearLord]

It is probably possible to play better with nothing but cheapo fodder, rather than nothing but high soul stone models, but powerful models definitely have their place.

Ressers have less need than any other faction to buy high soul stone models as they can make some later on. A model like the Dead Rider in a low soul stone game can be difficult for an opponent to deal with and may mean that the rest of your crew can get on and achieve your strategies and schemes while your opponent fights the powerful minion. Von Schill is another model that can do lots of things and dares your opponent to ignore him...

I generally play at 35ss and tend to take at least one higher costed model when I'm playing...

[Twisted Metal]

I have no problem using high SS cost models in a game. I often use Ashes and Dust w/ Rusty, Santiago w/ a Guardian, Kaeris w/ Snowstorm, two Rider lists ect...

[Gruesome]

I have no problem using high SS cost models in a game. I often use Ashes and Dust w/ Rusty, Santiago w/ a Guardian, Kaeris w/ Snowstorm, two Rider lists ect...

I think his question regarding high SS had to do with rezzers... Of course my understanding of OP's is not up to par lately.

[DarcXON]

I think his question regarding high SS had to do with rezzers... Of course my understanding of OP's is not up to par lately.

yeah, the only resser I find likes to have high point models (meaning self sustaining usually) is Seamus

[Twisted Metal]

Huh look at that... Well anyway my point still stand. I love the dead rider with Nico and Ashes is fun to play with even though the crew is a little out of the norm. The new models from the most recent book will also be really effective and their SS cost seems to be on the high side.

[Sholto]

I am just starting out playing Ressers for the first time (playing a pure Molly crew), so it will be interesting to see if I can get much use out of Molly's only really expensive model, the Rogue Necromancy. In other factions (I play Guild, Arcanists and Outcasts) I have a liking for high SS models, so my playstyle is certainly suited to the RN. The trick is always to ensure you don't leave it isolated, as any lone high SS model is a priority target for your opponent. I just like the way a major beatstick can influence the game and help control what your opponent is likely to do (always provided they don't succeed at it!)

[Cpeerson]

I look forward to "The Armor"... He is a beat stick that is capable of helping himself heal when beating things down and if he should somehow die, he can come back with Yan Lo and with Nicodem, he drops 3 corpse counters which are also incredibly useful.

I thought Nico could only summon nonunique models, which Izamu is definitely not.

[Tokaji]

I thought Nico could only summon nonunique models, which Izamu is definitely not.

You are quite correct sir.

[Gruesome]

summon is different than Hire.

He cannot summon Izamu in game. But he can hire him to start and if he dies, he drops 3 corpse counters.

I think that my sentence was worded oddly.

It was meant to mean:

With Yan Lo, he can come back

With Nicodem, if he dies, he is still 3 corpse counters, which Nico can use, unlike the Dead Rider, which only drops one.

[Forar]

Higher ss models can be a tricky Risk vs Reward balance to run, and depends heavily on a lot of factors, like the model in question, who you're playing (faction and particular master/minions), terrain, strategies and schemes.

I'm primarily a Guild player (have dabbled a little in Arcanists), and find that around 7ss is the top end of what I can field (aside from a few select models like the Peacekeeper and Pale Rider, the former of which I use all the time when I play Hoffman, the latter of which sees less table time), and often find myself envying the raw power some factions have access to in truly expensive models like Jack Daw (granted, hireable by anyone at a small premium), the Coryphee Duet and Ashes & Dust, where 9-14 soul stones present truly terrifying and hard to kill figures on the table.

Conversely, the faction's 4-5ss minions are often their bread and butter; highly efficient for their cost, but individually not quite as big a deal, while not quite swarm'y enough to guarantee an activation edge without sacrificing access to a few of the more powerful figures.

Anyway, as I said, I can empathize, and find myself generally building crews with at least one sizable minion (Nino, Executioner, Ryle or Peacekeeper) and a number of 4-5's to round them out, but I have also been playing a lot of 25ss games over the last month, where I've had less room to fit many large figures without handicapping my ss cache (especially playing Perdita; ye gods a starting cache of 2 hurts).

Getting back into 35ss games will be nice for that alone.