Hamelin's current state

[Elfenlied]

Hello all,

first post on these boards!

I was introduced to Malifaux by some fellow gamers, and have played some demo games with borrowed crews. Now, the time has come for me to pick my own. After some research, I've narrowed it down to 4 masters: Colette, Kirai, Dreamer or Hamelin.

While searching for tacticas on how to play/design a Hamelin crew, I've stumbled accross multiple threads declaring him an "NPE", calling his design overpowered, and the mention of possible errata that will cuddle him. Looking at the Errata/Fixes section, I can't tell whether his current errata is already the one that's supposed to "bring him in line with other masters".

What I'd like to ask is:

1) Has Hamelin already been cuddled? If so, in what ways/magnitude (e.g. Dreamer)?

2) If not, are cuddles to be expected anytime soon?

3) Is he still considered a viable competitive pick?

[CRC]

Hamelin has not been cuddled.

We don't know the timeframe involved.

As you might guess from the above, he is highly competitive.

[TheBurner]

Hamelin is obscenely good, if you take him into a competitive setting, you will most likely walk away from it in the lead. He is by no means an easy button or auto-win, but he's as close as you can get IMHO.

I've brought him to the table on 2 occasions since his release, that's it. After discussing it with local players and getting their view on things, they are all eagerly awaiting his update. The Marshals have stated they are working on his Errata, and we've just got to be patient.

[Hateful Darkblack]

1. Hamelin has not had any rules changes. Some leagues and meta have adopted house rules.

2. The Rules Marshalls have said they're working on it, but aren't in a hurry because when they make the changes they want to do them right.

3. That depends on the viewer. I generally play casual, and around my local FLGS, he's considered too overpowered for friendly play.

[Guy in Suit]

No one around here plays Hamelin in competitive games because they want the win to mean something

The four masters you've picked have very different themes but are all high on the WinButton list - so that seems to be something that appeals to you.

If you like the models and he is your favorite - pick him. I play Outcasts exclusively in tournaments and play everything but Hamelin - but I get bored playing powerful crews, so to each their own.

Malifaux is a complicated enough game that you may want to try another crew that doesn't break all the rules just to help you learn the game.

[ravenborne]

Malifaux has a weird group of players in that they like competetive play but not broken play. Its kind of a utopian group in that regard. However, I don;t think it can last.

Hamelin needs to be fixed but in the meantime most people seem to avoid playing him in tournaments. Honestly its weird.

(puns intended)

[Sniddy]

If your group is all about power play take Hamlin

If not consider your options, unfortunatly to play Hamlin as he's supposed to play...can be overpowered and can make the game seem 'unfun'

Hopefully they'll tweak him soon as I love the fluff and theme

Of the 3 remaining none are weak masters, and none are TOO broken, I'd lean toward Colette & Kirai as both are quite fun

[Adran]

The changes that they have already made to Hamelin are not the proposed change. (His death and rebirth has changed to prevent infinite loops).

This requires different use of the Stolen as now they don't need to be near to him, but they do need to survive to the end of the turn.

I've not played against him very much but from what I've seen the negative experience is often based on "My normal tactics don't work, I couldn't do anything".

Between killing the rats doing nothing, and the large number of rat activations possible each turn and him making everything insignifigant, is very tough for people to know what to do.

I would imagine any future change to look at some combination of these factors - but we have no timescale for these, just that the rules marshals are looking at him.

His current incarnation is certainly tournement viable. The only Time I faced him in a tournement I lost but I was playing Rasputina, had Recoinnoter as my stratergy, and the game was called in Turn 3.

I had killed Hamelin and about 15-20 ss worth of models and had the only surviving models in melee in his deployment zone. I had not yet lost a model, but since he had so many signifigant models I could only claim 2 table quarters at that point.

So if the tournement is on a tight time scale, he will struggle to get to 6 turns.

I would be loath to have him as my only master currently as I know of too many people who would refuse to play against him. But you know your local players far better than I ever could

[Odin1981]

When I run my guild crews I don't feel he is broken. However those crews are heavy in shrug off, dispell magic, and stubborn models. I also know you have to kill nix, rat catchers, stolen, then hamelin. However not many factions can boast the # of dispell effects guild can and in most high end tournaments that faction is horribly underrepresented so I feel that is one of the main reasons he does so well. A door without a doorstop is wide open to swing freely at its leisure.

[96p]

The combination of "you have to attack me" and "you can't attack me cause your now insignificant" is the most nervebreaking part about him, along with the insignificant making in general...

[Trevelyan]

There are ways to play against the Standard Hamelin crew, and their are certain Masters that are particularly good at doing so (plus several other masters which have some nasty tricks to pull - see happens to a rat swarm if Lilith swaps out the central Ratcatcher for a Nephilim, for example).

At the same time, there are some masters which have very limited options when playing against Hamelin. You can probably put together a crew which is passable against Hammy with the majority of masters, but it isn't always easy for people who don't understand him to do so, and even a good crew might only give you a fighting chance.

The real problems with Hammy in my (admittedly limited) experience playing with him are twofold:

1) Rat swarms are a royal PITA to use. the basic rules are simple enough, but constantly moving a whole bunch of piddle little minis around, nibbling targets to death with multiple small attacks and then reactivating the whole bunch to do so again (and again), will soon sap your will to live. One crucial fix will involve streamlining the rat swarm and preventing abusive reactivations.

2) Anti-Hamelin tactics are pretty counter intuitive for many players. This one bears repeating, because most people who have played him will tell you that a standard Hammy crew (rats, 'catchers, nix and stolen) is actually pretty fragile and hinges on a few key figures (essentially Nix and the 'catchers). The trouble is that many people don't seem to grasp this fact and, even when they do, actually acting on it takes some careful setup for most crews given the relative ease with which Hammy can heal his crew and occasionally summon new key models entirely. This is another area where balance needs to be addressed - key modes should be vulnerable, but not too easy for the opposing crew to take down, and I don't envy whoever at Wyrd is tasked with addressing that issue.

The real trick to Hammy is to focus on your own Strategies and Schemes and ignore his crew unless and until it is necessary to do otherwise (or an opportunity to do significant damage for minimal cost presents itself) but far too many people play Malifaux as a typical tabletop game where the aim is to wipe out the opposing side. I've got a pretty good win record among the few local players in my area, and I'd attribute at least half of my wins to people wasting time trying to take out my master (Hammy, Leveticus, Perdita, Hoffman - none of them exactly easy to kill) for multiple turns and leaving the rest of my crew free to score VPs. That's a bad tactic in any game, but doubly so against Hammy.

[alansmithee]

You've definitely picked an...interesting group of masters to play. Hamlin (and really, all the outcast masters) has a very unique playstyle that unless people know how to deal with it will likely cause them to lose and complain about it being a "NPE". He's definitely strong, but the whining about him is really out of line with his effectiveness. So, if you play with people who are more causal and/or don't like varying their strategies or thinking about the game much, you'll likely get a lot of complaints about him.

As an aside, since you picked all book 2 masters, prepare for 1 month after Hamlin is cuddled into near-uselessness for the forums to explode again about how much of a "NPE" either Kirai or Colette is (which is what happened with Hamlin after the Dreamer whining had finished) so you might want to keep that in the back of your mind. All your masters are extremely good (well, not the Dreamer anymore but 3 of 4) and it's likely that you'll get complaints about them all. Of course, your group might not be so knee-jerk as the forums typically are so you might just be fine there.

Edited September 25, 2012 by alansmithee

[tat2dbowler]

People unfortunately will always whine about whats winning, what it boils down to is just play what you want to play and whats fun to play. I play mostly rezzers but also play hamelin and pandora quite often and i enjoy playing them immensely. The problem i seem to see with the "power" masters is that they are incredibly fun to play but not that fun to play against. I tell all my new players to play whatever they want, if people seriously wont play against you because you play a certain master, i think they have forgotten why they got into gaming to begin with.

[G. Footman]

Hamelin's good, but he's not unbeatable

[96p]

The Dreamer is still pretty powerful, but much more in style then before...

[Odin1981]

You've definitely picked an...interesting group of masters to play. Hamlin (and really, all the outcast masters) has a very unique playstyle that unless people know how to deal with it will likely cause them to lose and complain about it being a "NPE". He's definitely strong, but the whining about him is really out of line with his effectiveness. So, if you play with people who are more causal and/or don't like varying their strategies or thinking about the game much, you'll likely get a lot of complaints about him.

As an aside, since you picked all book 2 masters, prepare for 1 month after Hamlin is cuddled into near-uselessness for the forums to explode again about how much of a "NPE" either Kirai or Colette is (which is what happened with Hamlin after the Dreamer whining had finished) so you might want to keep that in the back of your mind. All your masters are extremely good (well, not the Dreamer anymore but 3 of 4) and it's likely that you'll get complaints about them all. Of course, your group might not be so knee-jerk as the forums typically are so you might just be fine there.

This is in regards to your 2nd paragraph. The "idea" that you convey that dreamer is useless now couldn't be any more inaccurate. Yes he can no longer yoyo with impunity. However he still has a threat range of 16-19" with melee expert and 1 general ap (requires a couple rams in your hand or fortunate ss flips) or a 20-23" range with just his melee expert. The reason he was abandoned imho is he is no longer a autopilot win in that you actually have to come up with a plan to use him now as well as his crew (which prior to the errata you never actual had to use outside of just him and daydreams). So he is now no longer a point, click, and win crew now you have to use a moderate level of finesse to use well (ie win more games then you lose).

Granted I admit that I am aware that the wyrd developement team is looking at hamelin. However I believe they will make a careful selection of abilities that get scalpaled/changed to not take away his functunal use. Also the true hardcore fans of him and his crew won't abandon him they will adapt to the changes and roll on. Hopefully when he is errata'd he will become more likely for the casual side of the spectrom to pick up and they won't feel he is to filthy to pick up and play.

[Omenbringer]

There are ways to play against the Standard Hamelin crew...You can probably put together a crew which is passable against Hammy with the majority of masters, but it isn't always easy for people who don't understand him to do so, and even a good crew might only give you a fighting chance.

Even with purpose built lists and knowing how he functions, consistently beating Hamelin is not an easy thing.

The real problems with Hammy in my (admittedly limited) experience playing with him are twofold:

1) Rat swarms are a royal PITA to use. the basic rules are simple enough, but constantly moving a whole bunch of piddle little minis around, nibbling targets to death with multiple small attacks and then reactivating the whole bunch to do so again (and again), will soon sap your will to live. One crucial fix will involve streamlining the rat swarm and preventing abusive reactivations.

2) Anti-Hamelin tactics are pretty counter intuitive for many players. This one bears repeating, because most people who have played him will tell you that a standard Hammy crew (rats, 'catchers, nix and stolen) is actually pretty fragile and hinges on a few key figures (essentially Nix and the 'catchers). The trouble is that many people don't seem to grasp this fact and, even when they do, actually acting on it takes some careful setup for most crews given the relative ease with which Hammy can heal his crew and occasionally summon new key models entirely. This is another area where balance needs to be addressed - key modes should be vulnerable, but not too easy for the opposing crew to take down, and I don't envy whoever at Wyrd is tasked with addressing that issue.

As you point out, the key models aren't that easy to get at even when you have the models that are good at it and know what is key. Additionally, taking apart a vanilla rat list is very diffferent than facing his other lists.

The real trick to Hammy is to focus on your own Strategies and Schemes and ignore his crew unless and until it is necessary to do otherwise (or an opportunity to do significant damage for minimal cost presents itself) but far too many people play Malifaux as a typical tabletop game where the aim is to wipe out the opposing side. I've got a pretty good win record among the few local players in my area, and I'd attribute at least half of my wins to people wasting time trying to take out my master (Hammy, Leveticus, Perdita, Hoffman - none of them exactly easy to kill) for multiple turns and leaving the rest of my crew free to score VPs. That's a bad tactic in any game, but doubly so against Hammy.

Attempting to just ignore Hamelin and focus on your own strategies and schemes is something that is nice in theory but very difficult to actually achieve in game. He is very good at countering what you do while completing his objectives.

...He's definitely strong, but the whining about him is really out of line with his effectiveness. So, if you play with people who are more causal and/or don't like varying their strategies or thinking about the game much, you'll likely get a lot of complaints about him.

As an aside, since you picked all book 2 masters, prepare for 1 month after Hamlin is cuddled into near-uselessness for the forums to explode again about how much of a "NPE" either Kirai or Colette is (which is what happened with Hamlin after the Dreamer whining had finished) so you might want to keep that in the back of your mind. All your masters are extremely good (well, not the Dreamer anymore but 3 of 4) and it's likely that you'll get complaints about them all. Of course, your group might not be so knee-jerk as the forums typically are so you might just be fine there.

For the record Hamelin has been complained about for a lot longer than just the Dreamer fixes. In truth the complaints began very near the crews release.

People unfortunately will always whine about whats winning, what it boils down to is just play what you want to play and whats fun to play. I play mostly rezzers but also play hamelin and pandora quite often and i enjoy playing them immensely. The problem i seem to see with the "power" masters is that they are incredibly fun to play but not that fun to play against. I tell all my new players to play whatever they want, if people seriously wont play against you because you play a certain master, i think they have forgotten why they got into gaming to begin with.

Playing against Hamelin is very rarely fun for an opponent that is playing whatever they want (usually the crew that got them into the game). Beating him consistently requires specific models and tactics that aren't necessarily represented across all factions or Masters. And while most players dont need to win everytime to enjoy a game most players will lose interest quickly if their favorite crew is almost always losing against you.

Fixes have been promised (hopefully sooner rather than to much later) and I am sure Wyrd will do a great job as they did with the Dreamer (balancing the power level without losing the feel of the crew).

[NeuroFire]

I've been thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that the biggest problem is not really Hamelin, bit Nix and the Rat Catchers. They're the ones that make the rats so ridiculous. Rat Catchers should cost more, and rats shouldn't be able to summon them. Nix should also cost more, or be dialed back somehow. He's nearly impossible to take down without a whole lot of Magic, and making everything in the crew Significant is a huge deal.

The only issue I have with Hamelin himself is that he can make any model Insignificant, including Masters, potentially making an entire crew incapable of targeting him. But I still think the teeming swarms of rats are the bigger problem.

[Odin1981]

Why would you use magic on a model that is magic resistance 2? Granted if you have a ample # of magic weapons it is easier. But you have to have one hell of a wicked damage range to put a dent into a magic resist 2 model.

[Trevelyan]

Even with purpose built lists and knowing how he functions, consistently beating Hamelin is not an easy thing.

Very true. A purpose built list makes playing against Hamelin a genuine contest, the lack of such a list can make it impossible. I think that there are two different, albeit related issues underlying that problem, though.

The first is that Hammy has a fairly unique playstyle. The majority of the extant crews tend to hew pretty close to the tabletop game standard tactic of 'move into position and hit things until they die'. Better models are generally those which move faster, hit more often, hit harder, avoid hits or resist damage, all of which are relatively easy to quantify, and equally easy to counter (to hit a model with high Df you typically want a high Cb, if the other guy inflicts a lot of damage then some sort of armour or Hard to Kill goes down a treat, etc). Hammy and a few other masters (Kirai, Dreamer and the rest of the usual suspects) are harder to counter because their core abilities don't fit into the usual mould.

Secondary to this is the fact that, while there are some few models in the game which are perfectly able to counter the oddball powers of Hammy, Kirai & Co, they don't tend to be generally versatile in other areas, or if they are then the SS cost goes through the roof. Thus you tend to get a clear divide between a standard crew good for most occasions and a crew intended to tackle Hammy, and one for Kirai, etc.

Part, but by no means all of the solution could be for future models to more frequently feature a mix of abilities which can approach a 'standard' playstyle but also not be completely sidelined by odd powers of the quirky masters. Some minions already exist along those lines - the guild has the Ortegas and the Witchling Stalkers for example, with options to disregard all manner of negative conditions - but a few more, especially in other factions, would help even the odds.

As you point out, the key models aren't that easy to get at even when you have the models that are good at it and know what is key. Additionally, taking apart a vanilla rat list is very diffferent than facing his other lists.

That's another key issue with Hammy. Modifying him so a standard rat list works is entirely different from the fixes needed to stop the abuse of a grow list. I wonder how much of the grow list problem is a result of unintended consequences in that rules which are quite thematic with rats can be downright abusive when you add some terror tots to the list.

Attempting to just ignore Hamelin and focus on your own strategies and schemes is something that is nice in theory but very difficult to actually achieve in game. He is very good at countering what you do while completing his objectives.

Depends on the specific crew and on the particular objectives, of course. But I've seen people set up gun lines purely to slow the advance of an approaching rat swarm, and that's several turns of wasted effort right there. Focusing on your own objectives might not win you the game, but ignoring them almost certainly will.

I've been thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that the biggest problem is not really Hamelin, bit Nix and the Rat Catchers. They're the ones that make the rats so ridiculous. Rat Catchers should cost more, and rats shouldn't be able to summon them. Nix should also cost more, or be dialed back somehow. He's nearly impossible to take down without a whole lot of Magic, and making everything in the crew Significant is a huge deal.

While true, part of the problem with a Hammy fix is the level of interdependence in his standard crew. Nix and the Ratcatchers essentially are the crew, and without them the rats are pretty much worthless. Restricting Voracious Rats looks good on the surface until you realise that Malifaux Rats are utterly useless without it so would require a significant re-write. While it is true that Nix and Hammy both make insignificant models significant, which is a huge advantage, you have to bear in mind that Hammy's entire standard crew is insignificant, and so is utterly dependant on those two models being on the table to achieve most objectives. Limiting significance to an aura might help, but you need to be wary of making that aura too small since, hard as Nix is to kill, he can and will die to the right firepower and a small aura would ensure that he has to be front and centre where he is an easy target. And so on.

A lot of proposed Hammy fixes seem to tackle one issue in isolation without regard to the knock on effects that the change would have for the entire crew.

[NeuroFire]

Why would you use magic on a model that is magic resistance 2?

Because it's a spirit? I meant Magic as a general term, for the Spirit damage. Although I will be trying to hit that thing with Sonnia's blast markers if I come up against it again. (Last time I was using Perdita.)

part of the problem with a Hammy fix is the level of interdependence in his standard crew. Nix and the Ratcatchers essentially are the crew, and without them the rats are pretty much worthless. Restricting Voracious Rats looks good on the surface until you realise that Malifaux Rats are utterly useless without it so would require a significant re-write.

I didn't say the ability should be restricted, though. I just think the models that grant it should cost a bit more. And when you finally manage to take out a Rat Catcher (no easy feat, in my experience) they shouldn't come right back from a few Rats.

Edited September 26, 2012 by NeuroFire

[alansmithee]

This is in regards to your 2nd paragraph. The "idea" that you convey that dreamer is useless now couldn't be any more inaccurate. Yes he can no longer yoyo with impunity. However he still has a threat range of 16-19" with melee expert and 1 general ap (requires a couple rams in your hand or fortunate ss flips) or a 20-23" range with just his melee expert. The reason he was abandoned imho is he is no longer a autopilot win in that you actually have to come up with a plan to use him now as well as his crew (which prior to the errata you never actual had to use outside of just him and daydreams). So he is now no longer a point, click, and win crew now you have to use a moderate level of finesse to use well (ie win more games then you lose).

Granted I admit that I am aware that the wyrd developement team is looking at hamelin. However I believe they will make a careful selection of abilities that get scalpaled/changed to not take away his functunal use. Also the true hardcore fans of him and his crew won't abandon him they will adapt to the changes and roll on. Hopefully when he is errata'd he will become more likely for the casual side of the spectrom to pick up and they won't feel he is to filthy to pick up and play.

This is in regards to your first paragraph. The "idea" you convey is part of the problem with the knee jerk forums attitude-when they lose to someone it's "that master is overpowered" and in no way reflects upon their own ability at the game (which is doubtlessly amazing), but when something is obviously extremely hurt by cuddles (alps, dreamer, nekima) and people stop playing with them it's due to the people who previously played that model's obvious lack of skill. Maybe, just maybe, if more people showed some of this skill when playing against the more challenging masters, there wouldn't be the need for cuddles? Naaaaaaaah, that's way too hard. Better run to the board and cry "NPE! NPE! NPE!" until Wyrd takes care of the problem for you.

FYI the problem with your example of Dreamer's threat range is that LCB is extremely fragile in melee, so even if you do get him somewhere (admittedly not difficult), he takes something out then gets pasted by anything even moderately melee oriented.

---------- Post added at 09:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

Even with purpose built lists and knowing how he functions, consistently beating Hamelin is not an easy thing.

I do agree that Hamlin is difficult to beat. I also don't think he's problematic. There's always gonna be some masters who are better. That's just the nature of the game.

Also (as I said before) I think a lot of the complaints are due to not knowing how to play against him. Even in complaint threads there's tons of complaints from people who say they've never played as or against him.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Also (as I said before) I think a lot of the complaints are due to not knowing how to play against him. Even in complaint threads there's tons of complaints from people who say they've never played as or against him.

I disagree with you very strongly there. I have played both as Hamelin and against Hamelin. I still think he needs very much to be changed. Hamelin is distinctly much easier to play than most Masters, and much harder to play against. The fact that you can learn and tailor your crew to improve your chances against Hamelin doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that you can avoid the power imbalance by playing to your Strategies and Schemes.

Honestly, I love Hamelin's storyline and his tactical strangeness, and I'd really like to start playing him. (The 3 times I've played him were borrowed from a friend.) But right now, it's just not a fun game to play when he's on the table. I've been working with friends on playtesting nerf rules we can use in our local game scene. If we get them hammered out to the point that they work, or if Wyrd issues revisions so that he works better, I'll buy the Crew. I hope that happens soon.

[Gruesome]

Quite a thread...

Apparently Hamelin is fine and people should stop "whining".

"long time lurkers" have all the answers it seems... Who'd a thunk it!

[alansmithee]

I disagree with you very strongly there. I have played both as Hamelin and against Hamelin. I still think he needs very much to be changed. Hamelin is distinctly much easier to play than most Masters, and much harder to play against. The fact that you can learn and tailor your crew to improve your chances against Hamelin doesn't change this. Neither does the fact that you can avoid the power imbalance by playing to your Strategies and Schemes.

Honestly, I love Hamelin's storyline and his tactical strangeness, and I'd really like to start playing him. (The 3 times I've played him were borrowed from a friend.) But right now, it's just not a fun game to play when he's on the table. I've been working with friends on playtesting cuddle rules we can use in our local game scene. If we get them hammered out to the point that they work, or if Wyrd issues revisions so that he works better, I'll buy the Crew. I hope that happens soon.

I agree that he is harder to play against than most masters. I don't think he's significantly easier to play than most masters, and would actually say that building a crew and playing him can be quite challenging, especially if you go past the base models. I don't see how either of these things equates to being more powerful, however (especially if he's easier to play, that seems like a plus rather than a negative). I'd also agree that he's somewhat unfun to play, but that's mainly because I hate keeping track of 30 rats constantly dying/activating/popping back up.

My main fear is that all the masters with unique interactions are going to end up eventually cuddled, as they tend to be more powerful. And the way I see it, a lot of the power isn't necessarily intrinsic to the masters themselves, but in their crews and the crew interactions. And more so than the other book 2 masters, Hamlin seems tied into his minions that he can take. Without a lot of the things he provides, they'd be worth nowhere near their points (well, maybe not Nix).

---------- Post added at 12:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 AM ----------

Quite a thread...

Apparently Hamelin is fine and people should stop "whining".

"long time lurkers" have all the answers it seems... Who'd a thunk it!

I'm sorry, I didn't notice the postcount requirement for disagreeing with a commonly held opinion here. I'll make sure to keep that in mind in the future, as soon as I find said postcount requirement. Although it might be difficult, as I've personally tended to favor quality over quantity. I do understand if that isn't your preferred method of communication on these boards. Also, as a henchman I hope you're this welcoming to all new individuals, it's a great way to grow the game!