Gencon Tournament Format - Comment thread

[sharpobjects]

I played in the Master of Malifaux on Saturday and the Avatar of Malifaux on Sunday. Overall it was a great experience and I appreciate all the efforts made by Nilus and his staff as well as the representatives from Wyrd itself.

So, with that, here are some specifics we would like to hear your feedback on:

o Declaring your Master - the competitive events had players declare their master before hiring their crews. Opinions?

I liked this change. I do see some of lobo’s points regarding a few masters being behind the 8-ball if revealed in this format. Regardless, I like this addition to the rules.

o Adjusted Destroy the Evidence - what did you think about the Destroy the Evidence changes?

I like this change. It allows more fairness to the crews that can’t run up and destroy evidence on turn 1 like some of the faster masters/crews.

o Changes to Treasure Hunt - what did you think about the Treasure Hunt changes?

I like this change as well for the same reasons as mentioned above.

o Terrain Density - we tried to increase the terrain density from last year. Was it sufficient?

The boards were definitely denser than last year. Because of the increased density some of the boards favored crews with flight/float/spirit. I prefer the table set-up at Adepticon but if Wyrd wants primary utilization of terraclips at Gen Con then I don’t see much of a solution to the favorability of crews with flight/float/spirit. I can live with it.

o Terrain Types - we tried to increase the amount of "4 sides open topped buildings" along with multi-floor structures. Opinions?

I thought there was a nice spread of different types of terraclip structures.

o Scoring - TP/Diff/VP was the format used, opinions on this as the sole format used through the event.

This is the format I favor the most out of all the possibilities.

o Time limit format for the rounds

The rounds were 85 min with 10 min used for set-up. 75 min is a bit short. I would like to see more time added but I do understand that running a tournament with 4 rounds doesn’t leave you much room. The morning tourney’s started at 10am. Maybe starting at 9am would then allow an additional 60 min to be spread across the 4 rounds. Having the Master’s and Avatar tourney reduced to 30 stones instead of 35 would allow for quicker play within the time constraints given.

The main issue I had was the call of last activation at the 5 min time remaining. I would like to see a call of 5 min remaining and then let the players use the final 5 min and then call stop play when the 85 time limit has elapsed. Players can activate many models during that last 5 min, especially if you are just moving the models around the board and interacting. A player who activates a model and then the 5 min last activation is called, walks his model and finishes the activation in 5 seconds now leaves 4 min and 55 seconds left on the clock. By tournament rules that game is over even though there is almost 5 min left in the 85 min round. I do not agree with this and yes it hurt me in the Avatar Tourney.

o Playing at table #1 for consecutive rounds.

I understand that playing at table #1 is a prestige thing when you’re leading in the tournament but playing on the same table for multiple rounds isn’t always a benefit. I would like to see table changes regardless of your scoring position.

o Prizes on the final day

Since the Sunday tourney is single elimination it would be really helpful if prizes are handed out as the players drop. Many players have long drives home and some even have flights to catch. To ask everyone to remain until the conclusion of the tournament to receive their prizes is unrealistic.

They had announced that everyone who qualified for the Avatar Tournament was going to receive something for their participation regardless of what position you finished. They didn’t say what the prizes were and they were going to hand them out at the end. If I was the only one out of 16 that didn’t show up at the end then I guess you can disregard this last suggestion.

One last thing, I would have liked the rules packets/tournament information made available well before Gen Con.

Thanks for asking our opinions.

Edited August 23, 2012 by sharpobjects

[wrabbit37]

Quick question on the changed Treasure Hunt. Since the Treasure Marker is placed after crews are deployed, can a model with From the Shadows get placed in the center of the board where the Treasure will eventually be placed?

[nilus]

Quick question on the changed Treasure Hunt. Since the Treasure Marker is placed after crews are deployed, can a model with From the Shadows get placed in the center of the board where the Treasure will eventually be placed?

As its written now...yes...but that will get changed

---------- Post added at 10:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------

So time limits....

The schedule for the events was set before we got involved in running the events and I understand the theory behind the timings, in practice we know that 4 hours is just to short of time. Every time I pulled out that bullhorn and called time I cringed because I knew I was $$$$$$$$ing someone at some table off(I'm sensitive like that )

I felt even worse for the beginners tournament because if any group should have been given more time it was those guys and gals.

So next year rounds will be longer, not a whole lot longer, but our goal is at least 10 to 15 minutes. Also I have several people working on some enhanced tournament software that should help make score entering, table changes, drops and pairing move a lot quicker.

-----------------

Terrain. We did our best but I think we could have built more as well. Just a matter of how much time we have and how much we want to burn out the builders on Wednesday. We will continue to use Terraclips for most tables but I am going to see if we can work out a deal with World Works(Wyrds partner for Terraclips) to see if we can do a few tables using there papercraft tree kits for next year as well to get some more outdoor terrain. Or maybe if we are lucky that will be the next Terraclips set released

--------------------------

Rules Packs. My goal is A draft version of the Rules pack will be up for each event before Gencon event registration starts next year. The Final pack will be published a minimum of 30 days before Gencon 2013. We still may keep the Story encounters secret but for the competitive event there will be no surprises.

-----------------------

Anyways keep all the feedback coming. Either post here or PM Me or Nix.

[Guy in Suit]

Definitely figure out a way to get area terrain on the board. It is something I habitually build my crews around, and having literally none of it for the entire weekend was a bit of a let down.

I also left to catch a plane and did not get my avatar prize :-(

[langbenj]

Really liked the single elimination as there was a ton to do at Gencon and got to try several games I wouldn't have had the chance to otherwise.

Also, showed up when the round before finals was over (when I was told prizes would be given out) and was told there wasn't anything being given away except to the top 4 and bottom 4. doh!

[nix]

Ended up being prizes for top 4 and bottom 1. Plus everyone should have gotten shiny stickers and small malifaux tape measures.

[Zachilles]

Maybe this has been brought up before since I don't see anyone commenting about it, are people aware that each little square on a terraclips board is 1"? Effectively letting you premeasure during the game, I don't know about others but that's why I don't like to see terraclips used in tourneys

[nilus]

Maybe this has been brought up before since I don't see anyone commenting about it, are people aware that each little square on a terraclips board is 1"? Effectively letting you premeasure during the game, I don't know about others but that's why I don't like to see terraclips used in tourneys

Yes, we are aware.

Technically only buildings and structures were Terraclips. The floors were specially made Terraclip style mats which have squares that are not actually an inch across, so if you count them you will miss measure

[Shadai]

Before I begin, this is going to sound like I'm calling out Lobo, but he has a lot of really good points so I'm just quoting him so I don't miss anything.

~snip~

~snip~

Time limits: My biggest problem with the time limits is that I feel like it really hinders certain types of crews. Obviously, as Ramos is one of my favorite Masters to play, and I consider myself rather skilled with him, this frustrated me in particular, because he needs 2-3 turns to get really moving, even when you're not running his Avatar form. I think some of the solid Resser crews (excl Kirai) suffer from this as well, and could be why there is a perception that they are not competitive. I don't think that it's that they are bad crews, it's just that they are crews which usually require 5-6 turns in order to win. When you have a 75 minute time limit (which included setup, so really more like 60-65 minute rounds), that's nigh impossible to play 5-6 turns, and automatically eliminates some crews from being 'competitive'. As I stated elsewhere, I know in at least 2 of my losses with Ramos, and probably all 3 losses, if we had played through Turn 6, I likely would have won. In only 1 of those losses did I feel like my opponent wasn't playing very fast, but I also knew he was a newer player, so I didn't make a big deal about it. 'Slow Play' is going to become a big problem going forward if we stick to tournament timing like we did at GenCon, and it will be something that will have to be addressed. Malifaux is designed to be 6 rounds, and if you can't play in a tournament with the goal of getting to Turn 6 in 70 minutes, then IMO, you shouldn't have entered the 'Masters' tournament, or at the very least, you shouldn't be flippant when your opponent mentions being disappointed that you only got to turn 3.

Okay so I agree with you all the way up to this part.

And not that I feel this is aimed at me, but even so, I feel it's aimed in my general direction. And players like me.

I agree that some masters are a bit slower to get their game face on. Colette is like a sup'd up drag racer with flames painted on the sides. Ramos... well Ramos is like a beat up 79 Buick Park Ave with a bad starter. It's a floaty tank, but the problem is getting that beast started in the am.

But to say "if you can't play in a tournament with the goal of getting to Turn 6 in 70 minutes, then IMO, you shouldn't have entered the 'Masters' tournament" that's just not fair. No really, it's not fair. At all.

I was one of those guys that made it to the masters. I didn't do it by slow play on purpose, I'm still new. And if someone told me, I'm sorry dude, but you can't play on Sunday even though you qualified because you're not good enough...

Let's just say that right there would turn me away from this game faster then a naked Felicia Day giving me the "come hither" glance.

Seriously. If you want this to be an elitist game, please feel free to play with your 5 other elitist friends and I'll go do something else. I believe all of my games made it AT LEAST to turn 4 before some of them were called for time. I think I had 1 that I was in turn 6 when it was called. And a few others where I was in turn 5. I didn't finish a game all weekend, save for that raping I took at the hands of Webster where I conceded 3rd round of the masters.

Was I doing it on purpose? Hell no. But I'm not Webster, I don't know all the cards like he does, I don't have the memorized, and occasionally I (shocker) have to read them during my turn to make sure they do what I think they do. So to expect me to know and/or play like that, well, enjoy elitist Malifaux.

I don't actually think that's what you mean Lobo. But that's kinda what it sounds like. Please don't think I'm jumping you or anything. I'm thinking it was either a poor choice of words, or just the way I'm reading it, or something.

If you do mean it that way, I think that alienating players because they are "not good enough" to play 6 rounds under a strict-ass time limit, well that's just not fair.

Terrain: ~snip~

Totally agree. I wasn't around last year so I don't have anything to compare to, but all of this sounds reasonable and is pretty much where I was feeling about it during play.

Single Elimination: ~snip~

Loved it actually. It was nice knowing when I lost I was done. There was no hanging around, I could just up and leave the con and go home. I think a loser's bracket would be more trouble then it's worth, but I can see the draw.

Declaring your Master: ~snip~

I'm actually of two minds on this. I didn't like it as Colette cause really, who am I going to take. Please. My opponent if he knew anything about Colette could probably tell me my list before I even showed him. However, at the same time I kind of liked knowing what kind of rape train was inbound for my table before it arrived.

Problem is, I don't really know how to fix it. Don't do it, and you give Outcast Masters a bit more of an advantage over other guys. Do it, and you kind of screw specialized armies, like Kirai, Colette, Ramos, Gremlins, etc.

So it's an issue of six one way, half a dozen another.

Adjusted Destroy the Evidence: ~snip~

I liked it. I liked that there wasn't a brawl at the center right at the beginning for that all important center marker. I didn't really like the whole, "no interact on turn 1". Like Lobo said, it really screws fast moving Colette armies where that is their bread and butter. I don't stand toe to toe with anything, nor should it. Hit and run is my game, and being forced into a slugfest is not really fair.

I think the answer is actually a bit of both. I think you DO allow interact actions with markers on turn 1. However, what I think you do is increase the cost of the action for TURN 1 ONLY. Thus, if I somehow get across the board on turn 1 with 2 actions left, I can destroy the evidence. If I can't, well, each turn after the first, the cost comes down to (1). That makes it fair for everyone. It discourages the first turn blitz, but not so much that it just simply cannot be done.

Changes to Treasure Hunt: ~snip~

See my thoughts about the previous.

Totally agree here.

I'm not going to touch on scoring or anything, cause I really don't know any better so who am I to say.

Finally, someone mentioned about playing on the same table. This happened to me at least twice over the weekend, and I just flipped to the other side so I could play something different.

I agree that steps should be taken to try and avoid letting players play on the same table, but sometimes that just doesn't work. I think the players can take the initiative by either switching sides, moving terrain, and or twisting the board so they both will be playing from a different angle.

Just some thoughts from a new(er) player

[LoboStele]

only spiders can do that. otherwise you have to agree that all walls have the climbable trait. There is no climb action that you can perform in Malifaux so either the terrain lets you or you have something that grants it to the terrain.

To be honest, if you were playing on those setups at GenCon, and you refused to let an opponent climb walls under the 1/2 movement standards, that's just kind of a jerk move, IMO. If neither player has spirits or flight/float models, I could see not allowing climb. But if you have any of those and tell me as an opponent that I can't climb a wall because we didn't declare them 'climbable' at the beginning of a game, I'd be calling a judge over ASAP. And if I was judging an event and got called over to settle a dispute like that, you can bet I'd be telling people to sit down, start climbing stuff, and stop being @$$hats.

I don't actually think that's what you mean Lobo. But that's kinda what it sounds like. Please don't think I'm jumping you or anything. I'm thinking it was either a poor choice of words, or just the way I'm reading it, or something.

If you do mean it that way, I think that alienating players because they are "not good enough" to play 6 rounds under a strict-ass time limit, well that's just not fair.

I never would intend to alienate anybody. But when you look at it from the other side, and when I'm a competitive player, running a crew that is typically known to be 'slow' (aRamos), and I'm the one who feels the need to speak up at the end of the game and say that I wish my opponent had played faster? That's kind of what I'm getting at. Yes, newer players should be given the time to learn the game, and play at their own speed, etc. etc. But if we ever want Malifaux to have actual 'Masters' events where we compete to see who are the best players, then the factor of how fast someone plays has to be factored in. When I used to play Star Wars Miniatures competitively, we had to deal with the same thing eventually, and yes, people would get handed warnings for playing slow. The Malifaux game is designed to be played to 6 turns, and if you have a Colette crew, and your opponent has Ramos or Nicodem, or some other 'slow' crew, but you only get to Turn 3 in the game, you are artificially giving the 'faster' crew an advantage.

I showed up to GenCon expecting to play games of Malifaux, which are supposed to be 6 turns. By only getting 3-4 in some games, I felt very disillusioned. To put it starkly, I came home and said to several of my buddies "I wish I had finished painting Chompy's crew, and just took that with me. Because with that, I would have the speed and offensive power to handle how the tournaments were run." And I HATE that I came back feeling that way. I don't want anyone to feel like they have to run a certain kind of crew in order to be 'competitive'.

So, when I say that people should learn to play quicker, this is where I'm coming from. I certainly don't intend to be a jerk about it, and I would never turn anyone away from a tournament. But if you play a game and only get in 3 rounds, you better believe I'm going to at least try to nicely suggest that you learn to play a bit faster. If your opponent was playing fast, then in essence, you have cheated them. If you were playing fast and your opponent wasn't, then you can point that out and walk off. But if Malifaux intends to be taken seriously as a competitive game at some point down the road, time limits for games, and slow play are things which will need to be addressed.

[bashamer]

There is a lot of time limit rage it seems like. Personally I like time limits, and more aggressive is more fun for me.

Time limits will never suit everyone, doesn't matter which way you go; they just won't.

The best advice i can give is to use chess clocks for the more competitive events. Leave it up to the players to budget their own time. And if they are unable to complete in the alotted time they lose.

Telling people they can't play doesn't work, penalizing people by matching them up against people who cannot manage their time does not work.

for gencon i would suggest 1 chess clock qualifier, chess clock masters and add extra time to one of the other events as an intro tournament.

let players chose what they like.

Note: I realize not every crew needs the same amount of time to play, but just because you put xxxx on the table should not mean that I have to accept that the game will only go to turn 2. If you want to play lots of activstions you can with chess clocks, but you are managing your own time, not mine.

Edited August 24, 2012 by bashamer

[LoboStele]

How do you even begin to make a chess clock work in a game like Malifaux? Star Wars Miniatures had a MUCH more simple system in terms of who's 'turn' it was, and we were never able to come up with a viable chess clock situation.

In Malifaux, you'd be switching the timer back and forth every time someone needed to decide if they were going to cheat a card or not. Don't think that will work.

Yes, time limits were definitely an issue. To be honest though, for me, I think it was more simply the surprise of things being SO short. 10-15 minutes shorter (which is what we were dealing with on Sunday) is the difference between an extra round or 2 in most games. So, I think the time limits in Gaining Grounds right now are just about perfect as-is. There were just other circumstances forcing the reduced time on Sunday.

For what it's worth, I had no complaints myself about the time limits on Saturday, and I don't remember hearing much either. My only complaint about Saturday is that I would have liked to have seen games played to finish out the round when time was called. If people take more than 5-10 minutes to finish a round, then a judge can hover at the table and be sure they are moving along.

As Nilus said though...even getting an extra hour of time for each tournament would be enough for another 15 minutes per round, which would be perfect, IMO. I'm not too worried about time issues, to be honest.

[MinimumPhase]

... cut ...

So, with that, here are some specifics we would like to hear your feedback on:

• Declaring your Master - the competitive events had players declare their master before hiring their crews. Opinions?
  
• Adjusted Destroy the Evidence - what did you think about the Destroy the Evidence changes?
  
• Changes to Treasure Hunt - what did you think about the Treasure Hunt changes?
  
• Terrain Density - we tried to increase the terrain density from last year. Was it sufficient?
  
• Terrain Types - we tried to increase the amount of "4 sides open topped buildings" along with multi-floor structures. Opinions?
  
• Scoring - TP/Diff/VP was the format used, opinions on this as the sole format used through the event.
  

Then, please let us know what we did right and what went badly. We want your feedback to improve future events, but keep it civil.

Declaring your Master - I like this change. When I first read the rulebook, for some reason I thought that this was the standard operating procedure. I think that it does favor the player that knows what to expect with each opposing master, but that extra little bit of strategy at the beginning of an encounter added to my overall experience at GenCon.

Adjusted Destroy the Evidence - I did not play any encounters like this, unless these changes were reflected in the story encounter. If these changes were not reflected in the story encounters, please disregard the next two sentences. I found that the first two rounds of the story encounter were biased toward one group or the other. In those encounters I was fortunate enough to get the advantaged group; based on that fact, I felt that too great an advantage came from a single flip.

Changes to Treasure Hunt - I liked the changes to treasure hunt. Not allowing anything to be picked up on the first turn allowed slower crews to get to the center in time to have an effect. In the old format, I have found that a sprinting Terror Tot, a Transposition-casting Primordial Magic, and a Fast Lilith puts many opponents at a deep disadvantage.

Terrain Density - The tables that I played on had a good amount of terrain. The only place where I see room for improvement is in the setups that had a single 10x10 or larger feature. This reduced the viability of abilities like "From the Shadows."

Terrain Types - I thought that the variety of terrain types was good.

Scoring - I liked the method of scoring and the consistency.

The only other suggestion that I currently have is that more a priori clarity on what happens in the last few minutes of the game would be appreciated. Although it did not affect me personally, I think that it would be best if before the first encounter begins, everyone is told whether the calling of time means to stop immediately, to finish the action, to finish the activation, etc.

Finally, I want to thank everyone involved with planning and executing the events at GenCon for their efforts. I would also like to thank all the players who made each encounter in which I participated fun. Those two factors resulted in me enjoying every minute of Malifaux I got to play at GenCon.

[ravenborne]

Games need a 1:30 to 1:45 to be fair to to all. So then maybe Gen Con isn't the place for the big Master's, let that be Adepticon. Gen Con can still have lots of cool tournaments but just not on the super competitive level.

One other comment about the changes to the strategies: after thinking it over, I think a general tournament change should be that no strategy or scheme can be completed on the first turn. Simple fix for a lot of things, and its "future proof". I am thinking of testing this in our next tournament format.

[Merbak]

Quick thoughts as someone who plays mainly a tool-boxy crew (Marcus).

The announcing of Masters before play starts was great for Marcus, in my opinion, and I think great for balance, as the Masters with One True List (or anything close to it) tend to be very solid lists, regardless of who they are fighting, and even they had opportunity to tailor their list to their opponent.

The re-written treasure a little tough on Marcus (and other very-fast teams who don't like to be in a ton of direct conflict). I didn't mind that it made movement shenanigans fail. It did bother me a bit, though, that it made them into yet another play-this-strategy-like-slaughter-until... strategy.

The re-written destroy the evidence was fantastic, though, as it moved it away from "Come have a battle at the middle" party and made it a more thoughtful game.

[CRC]

One other comment about the changes to the strategies: after thinking it over, I think a general tournament change should be that no strategy or scheme can be completed on the first turn. Simple fix for a lot of things, and its "future proof". I am thinking of testing this in our next tournament format.

I agree in principle, but (for example) you don't actually win Treasure Hunt until the end of the game. Something closer to "you cannot perform Interact actions for strategies nor schemes on turn 1" would probably work better.

[MrSpiffypants]

Hi, I'm Ray. I was at Gencon, where I only signed up for Wyrd events (6x total). I came in 3rd in the first story event and ended the second story event winning table #4. I never lost a game, nor changed my list... which makes my choice of Seamus a fun one and profitable one.

That said, I'm not coming back -not without some major changes, and then there's the trust issues.

1) Time:

Sucked. Never prevented me from getting to know my opponent, making a new friend, and having a fun time. It really rewarded a player who got a good hand, and could score easy vp's fast.

2) Terrain:

I remember hearing praises about the Terrain at Adepticon (pretty sure it was on the Gamers Lounge). How people came over and were really impressed by it, and wanted to play on it. With the exception of a "fighting pit" (table #8 if memory serves) all I saw were Terraclips: city. No color, no flash, so it's very hard for me to get excited. You helped release the new Terraclips stuff, and I never saw it (outside of demo table). It's pretty short sighted, as you guys even offered a cupon : buy two Terraclips and get a free connector box.

3) Painting:

On Thursday around 11:00 I ended up at your booth (with wife and son in tow) and awaited my turn to purchase. I overheard someone asking if he could play today with "an" unpainted model. The guy responded with "Oh you're making me into the bad guy here/gonna get me in trouble. Sure, it's ok." That didn't bother me, accidents/memory/life happens. However when we look ahead 3+ hours (my 3rd game of the tournament, story encounter), I end up against a gremelin crew sprayed white. This wasn't the same guy in line. Now let me preface this by saying the guy was a great opponent, had a blast playing/trash talking against him, oh and I won! I even got prizes, prizes which I gave away to my best opponents. But what would have happened had I lost? Losing to an unpainted army is cheating. Half the fun of coming to a tournament is to see the paintjobs. So this was the 3rd table, that means he had to score very well on his last two games. How is that fair to them?

3) Beginners aka Ringers tournament:

Wow. So I showed up 45 minutes early to this one. As I sat reading the rules, I overheard some people talking. They were going into an serious discussion of how they choose crews, picking adaptability, speed and damage over durability. How that was crucial to playing in tournaments like this. One mentioned he had collected the full range of Neverborn and most of the Outcasts. The conversation turned to obscure rules questions before the tournament started. At that point I wasn't surprised when they're names were called out for the "Beginners of Malifaux" tournament. I tried to put that behind me. What right did I have to comment? I came in third in the story encounter, I started to feel bad and wondered if I should back out. I told myself I wouldn't pick the same list and try some less optimal choices/schemes. First opponent was a ringer. He was a dick. The rules marshall's called over 6x in less then 2 full turns (and we were playing fast, we're talking 20 minutes here). I let him use an aura through an object, and walked away from the game/tournament. But what were my options? The goal of tournaments is to meet some people, challenge yourself, and lose yourself in the game/friends. I knew exactly how bad I would feel if my next opponent I turned into that dick. It took a lot of convincing, but I showed up the next day. I had a fun time, and asked my opponents about their experiences in the "Beginners" tournament. VERY similar.

4) Story Encounters:

For those that don't know the rules: they weren't that good. Sounds like I'm being such an ass, but here is my reasoning why. If you dedicated yourself to accomplishing these very silly objectives, you would do it. The enemy could not get to you in time. By the time they did get to you, they couldn't kill you in time. Assuming they brought the right counter units, and even did get the perfect firing angle, open terrain, etc. you still wouldn't die, because chances are it was your master and you'd just use some stones. If you had six turns to do it, maybe, but games didn't go beyond the start of 4 (most, halfway through third). Three of the story encounters had a monster, all the encounters required some marker, either a Breach Marker/Grave Marker/Hanging Tree. For the first Story Tournament: no markers, no monster. We weren't told we needed them ahead of time... that would have just been intelligent. At the beginning of the battle we had to come up with stuff (My "Teasdale Ghoul" was an unpainted Goblin Catapult). Now the rules for these guys... they were dumb! Way too complicated. Especially considering the time format we had to work with. Also the control aspects of these monsters are silly. They can switch sides at the drop of a hat, require you to spend a lot of soulstones or just effort to even make them work for you. Both winners of table 2-3 took one look at the rules are realized the same thing: You have no control over this thing, it's easy to kill, and it's gonna go rogue when it's beside your models... let the other guy invest in this. (That's what we did, it worked just as we saw, we both won).

5) Quality:

This ticked me off the most. I saw very briefly the gorgeous demo tables. They had color, they looked amazing, they had style! Effort had been made! When it came to the tournaments, you failed me. Tables were grey. The models you did eventually provide... were also grey. Because you didn't paint them. In fact, you didn't clean the mold lines off, nor did you glue them together properly as my "gift" of a Hanging Tree will attest. There's a 4 mm gap seperating the base from the trunk. You didn't provide Story models! Even look at Puppet Wars, the models were only inked! You provided the models and all you did was spray white, red ink for guild, green for ressers, yellow for outcasts. The gaming was held up by a painting competition, which is just idiotic but more then enough has been said on the Time. Everything felt rushed. I remember hearing that 80% of the new book was to be available at Gencon. I never saw that. In fact, since I didn't show up Sunday I never even got a chance to buy the Arcanist box. I'm not sure I will now. The Hanging Tree was a silly buy on my part and I regret it. The whole sticker thing... well I don't know, since it's not up yet. Even the story for book 4, which I finished reading yesterday, just seemed rushed. Didn't inspire me outside of Lucas's.

I drove from Ontario to this tournament. I dragged my beautiful wife, and my screaming four month old a 12 hour drive through the most boring countryside to play here. I took a day off work just so I could convert, base, and paint my models. Hotel, gas, food arn't your concern. However I shelled out $140 for tickets for the both of us, and another $32 for my events (my wifes were free). What I wanted, were all the

new resser stuff $200?

Puppet Wars $85,

Nightmare Lord Compy $200

books 1+4 $30/$35

any models for the story encounter $50?

I could have been persuaded to pick up the necessary models for The Dreamer $150?

So that's around $600. What I ended up buying was Book 1+4, Lazarus and the trees, $180. That's a horrible sale for you guys. Especially when you consider how much I spent at Privateer Press booth, those were great deals! My wallet and I would have had a better time going to a semi-local tournament and purchasing from http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ . Had it not been for the Bike show, the amazing WW2 museum, and the really friendly people I met I would have really been angry.

To summarize: Gencon sucks, 4/10 stars, I doubt I'll be back.

Edited August 26, 2012 by MrSpiffypants
spelling, oops

[Gruesome]

You have depressed me.

A bummer it was not fun for you. Especially sad to hear to had to play against a jerk. Maybe I am lucky, but in my time at tournaments the person that I have liked the least was just someone that I would not really be friends with ever and certainly not a jerk... But, I have not gone to Gencon...

Sounds more like you hit the jackpot.

If its ever in your budget/schedule, drag your beautiful wife and kid to Adepticon. Guaranteed great time. Nilus makes it perfect... (And plenty of very nice restaurants around)

[MrSpiffypants]

Yeah Adepticon was first choice, but baby-Ray was born on April 2. That threw a little monkey wrench in that idea. When we left we straight to Naperville (went to Central 15 years ago), stocked up on Oberweis Milk some great deep dish, and fled northward - so trip wasn't a complete waste.

Gencon's coupon book was the slap in the face. Now in all fairness, Wyrd had by far the BEST DEAL. Buy two terraclips, get a free clip pack. So spend $80, get $40 free. Great deal, but I have terrain, and I so wanted the new models.

Some of these deals, wow just look:

pg 11 CoolStuffInc.com - $2 off any board game. $5 bonus when you sell us $50 in Magic Minis or CCG's. $100 gift certificate raffle.

pg 15 CrystalCastle.com 20% off Gen Con 2012 Anniversare Special Limited Edition Commemorative Dice Set. Plus (limited supply) a FREE Gen Con D6

Or the single greatest deal *rolls eyes*

Pg 19. Visit booth #1743 for your FREE MINIATURE & PAINTING LESSON

Games Workshop.

I can't believe they even wasted paper on that.

[Gruesome]

alright! never enough Naper-Villains!

[Omenbringer]

5) Quality:

This ticked me off the most. I saw very briefly the gorgeous demo tables. They had color, they looked amazing, they had style! Effort had been made! When it came to the tournaments, you failed me. Tables were grey. The models you did eventually provide... were also grey. Because you didn't paint them. In fact, you didn't clean the mold lines off, nor did you glue them together properly as my "gift" of a Hanging Tree will attest. There's a 4 mm gap seperating the base from the trunk. You didn't provide Story models! Even look at Puppet Wars, the models were only inked! You provided the models and all you did was spray white, red ink for guild, green for ressers, yellow for outcasts

Your definately entitled to your opinion but to be fair those models were pretty much shipped directly there with the Wyrd crew packaging them on site. Also the Puppet Wars models were essentially final proofs to confirm the start of production of the re-release.

The demo tables were wonderful however having conducted and watched more than a few demos on them I can say they weren't practical for gaming at all. Additionally, perusing the other tournaments that were going on around the con I can say that across the board most tables were very uninspiring (with very little real terrain on the boards). The main reason for this is that transporting that stuff is a big pain (I have done themed boards for local events and transportation has always resulted in the need for substantial repairs no matter how well things are packed).

Could things have been better definately. I do agree that the terraclips sets could have been better utilized to really enhance the tournament boards.

What I wanted, were all the

new resser stuff $200?

Puppet Wars $85,

Nightmare Lord Compy $200

books 1+4 $30/$35

any models for the story encounter $50?

I could have been persuaded to pick up the necessary models for The Dreamer $150?

So that's around $600. What I ended up buying was Book 1+4, Lazarus and the trees, $180. That's a horrible sale for you guys. Especially when you consider how much I spent at Privateer Press booth, those were great deals! My wallet and I would have had a better time going to a semi-local tournament and purchasing from http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ . Had it not been for the Bike show, the amazing WW2 museum, and the really friendly people I met I would have really been angry.

To summarize: Gencon sucks, 4/10 stars, I doubt I'll be back.

Granted it sucks not being able to purchase everything you want at GenCon but most companies dont bring their entire catalog of products (and almost none bring the limited edition models from earlier/other cons). Any additional copies of the Nightmare edition Lord Chompy Bits sold out during the Black Friday sale last year (it is very unlikely he will be reproduced either). The Privateer Press booth was no different and the thing that angered me the most was the fact that they completely sold out of the IKRPG by 11:00 on Thursday.

I think the biggest mistake Wyrd made for the Con was setting the expectation that so much would be available for "early" release. Had the 80% statement never been uttered I whole heartedly believe there wouldn't have been this many complaints.

I agree that this GenCon was a bit different than the other ones I've been to, probably a sign of the tough economy. Keep in mind I am not trying to trivalize your opinion at all just lend some perspective.

[tat2dbowler]

I really like the idea of declaring masters before hiring! I understand and have heard both sides of the argument, I just feel that it will be more challenging which in my gaming experience equates to more fun. I like playing my crew against models or masters that are built as a hard counter to them!

[SteamPants]

Time limits: My biggest problem with the time limits is that I feel like it really hinders certain types of crews. Obviously, as Ramos is one of my favorite Masters to play, and I consider myself rather skilled with him, this frustrated me in particular, because he needs 2-3 turns to get really moving, even when you're not running his Avatar form. I think some of the solid Resser crews (excl Kirai) suffer from this as well, and could be why there is a perception that they are not competitive. I don't think that it's that they are bad crews, it's just that they are crews which usually require 5-6 turns in order to win. When you have a 75 minute time limit (which included setup, so really more like 60-65 minute rounds), that's nigh impossible to play 5-6 turns, and automatically eliminates some crews from being 'competitive'.

Games need a 1:30 to 1:45 to be fair to to all.

I've never been to one of these large convention tournaments. Why were they set at 75 minutes and not like around 1:45 or even 2:00 just to be safe?

Is it really so important to be done by 6pm? Just wondering...

[Omenbringer]

I've never been to one of these large convention tournaments. Why were they set at 75 minutes and not like around 1:45 or even 2:00 just to be safe?

Is it really so important to be done by 6pm? Just wondering...

Most people wont dedicate that much time to a single game system while attending GenCon (there is so much else going on).

[SteamPants]

Most people wont dedicate that much time to a single game system while attending GenCon (there is so much else going on).

But doesn't this punish those that do want to dedicate that much time to a tournament? You know what I mean? I assume there are those that travel far so they can compete in a higher level format but if the experience isn't too different than a casual tourney at a local store, then why take the effort to travel? I would assume the goal is to provide the players with an experience they can't get outside of Gencon. Thus, making it worth the trip.

Unless, the goal isn't about providing a higher tournament class environment, and its about just having a forum for players from all over meet and socialize, then sure...that's okay.

I'm assuming that many that enter the tournaments are doing so because that's the main reason why they attend Gencon. Then everything else is just cherries on top. If you're attending with the tournament as the main feature, I would assume you don't mind burning a full day or two on the tourney.

Although I'm aware this assumption could be wrong. Would love to hear from others.