nilus Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) I suspect this thread will be closed soon. Not if everyone steps back from their PCs, breathes and remembers that this is suppose to be a conversation and not a fight. Edited July 4, 2012 by nilus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Not if everyone steps back from their PCs, breathes and remembers that this is suppose to be a conversation and not a fight. I feel like Q has been completely civil to me and I have been completely civil to him in return. I'm not angry. Is it my avatar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted July 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 People start talking about threads being locked even if there's nothing wrong, and it often becomes a self fulfilling prophecy (or at least diverts the topic). Best to ignore them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) I still think that trying to draw analogies to other games miss the mark. I would be interested in seeing how accepting the Warmachine community would be of a boosted roll that came up triple-1 being changed to automatically kill the target. Then I think we would see what other communities think about the EXTREMENESS of having a "lucky" flip change a Weak-Damage into something far beyond even a Severe. Edited July 4, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 You guys that don't like Jokers changing results of damage have a simple solution: stop using them. I can't believe another thread got derailed by this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 You guys that don't like Jokers changing results of damage have a simple solution: stop using them. Constructive feedback thread that has not turned into personal attacks in which people are discussing a mechanism that some do not care for... Thanks for the feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfen Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Constructive feedback thread that has not turned into personal attacks in which people are discussing a mechanism that some do not care for... Thanks for the feedback! Constructive feedback thread which contains a thorough spreadsheet of changes, only one of which involves Jokers, but look at the last several pages of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Constructive feedback thread which contains a thorough spreadsheet of changes, only one of which involves Jokers, but look at the last several pages of this thread. If you are interested in talking about some other aspect of Calmdown's ideas, you're absolutely free to do so. I mean, this metadiscussion is by far the most useless thing possible in this thread, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 So you honestly think that it was always the designers' intent that it's good strategy to try and hit a H2W2 model as badly as possible to fish for a Red Joker. Wow. First off I DON'T think it's a good strategy, and I think we should leave it to Wyrd to say if they think it is or not, rather than projecting our opinions on them. But I do think that if it wasn't intended, they've had numerous opportunities to change it through three major errata passes and uncounted minor ones. So, yeah. You fail to understand how a smallish chance of a gigantic reward at basically no extra risk skews things. Don't worry, it's basic human nature that risk analysis fails at extremes of chance and reward/penalty. This is where we disagree. Unlike dice-based games, Malifaux is deterministic once the deck is down. What can change between a and :-fate:-fate flip? Consider two simple examples, same cards, different order. 1) 12, 10, 3, 9. 2) 3, 9, 12, 10. In case (1), the extra :-fate turns a moderate into a weak. In the second, you burn two solid cards which could have applied during the next duel. When you add those extra , you're burning cards from your deck. That can go either way, but IMHO it's certainly an extra risk, primarily because there are far more bad cards than good. Every time you lose a 10+ to a negative flip, it hurts your overall performance for the rest of the turn. It's a duel you have to cheat when you might not otherwise, which costs you resources, or simply outright fail. Where have I said that there is no benefit to H2W? Why do you feel the need to invent these strawmen? It really doesn't further the conversation in a fruitful way. My apologies if I overstated your case, but at no point during this discussion did you address any of the benefits you get from H2W. You were focusing exclusively on the drawback. It seemed a reasonable assumption that you felt there was no upside to the ability, or at the very least one that was so minimal as to not be worth considering. I was filling in a gap in your presentation, and did so badly. It certainly wasn't intended as a strawman. Which brings me to the general tone. Every paragraph managed to be insulting at some level or other. If that's your idea of civil, I'd hate to see it when it actually got nasty. Judging Wyrd's intent by their actions doesn't deserve the condescension, I think I've shown a passingly reasonable understanding of probability and risk, nothing in our discussion has even hinted that I'm a player who "loves to win no matter how" or doesn't enjoy a close game - quite the opposite, really. Since I consistently defend the benefits of Seamus having H2W2, it would seem that if your evaluation is indeed correct, I'm the sort of player who enjoys LOSING no matter how So please, calm it down a bit. Nothing being discussed here deserves that much unpleasantness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 I still think that trying to draw analogies to other games miss the mark. I would be interested in seeing how accepting the Warmachine community would be of a boosted roll that came up triple-1 being changed to automatically kill the target. Then I think we would see what other communities think about the EXTREMENESS of having a "lucky" flip change a Weak-Damage into something far beyond even a Severe. Regarding Warmachine, one thing that is similar to the H2W + Red Joker issue is the very corner case of Caine behind a wall, on a hill, while benefitting from Blur and being shot at by any number of Warjacks or Warbeasts. In this case, Caine's effective Def 26 means that any Jack/Beast with an effective RAT of less than 10 (which would be all jacks and beasts in the game, as well as most warcasters and warlocks) would actually have a higher chance of hitting Caine if they choose not to boost the attack roll. Basically the mechanism of the 'all sixes' auto hits, means that trying to roll a lucky two sixes on a 2d6 is easier than trying to roll a 17+ on a 3d6. In some ways this is similar to the H2W2 + Red Jokers with Seamus issue. Boosting is supposed to be better than not boosting, but it isn't in this case. H2W2 is supposed to be better than not having it, but it isn't when a Red Joker gets flipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Regarding Warmachine, one thing that is similar to the H2W + Red Joker issue is the very corner case of Caine behind a wall, on a hill, while benefitting from Blur and being shot at by any number of Warjacks or Warbeasts. In this case, Caine's effective Def 26 means that any Jack/Beast with an effective RAT of less than 10 (which would be all jacks and beasts in the game, as well as most warcasters and warlocks) would actually have a higher chance of hitting Caine if they choose not to boost the attack roll. Basically the mechanism of the 'all sixes' auto hits, means that trying to roll a lucky two sixes on a 2d6 is easier than trying to roll a 17+ on a 3d6. In some ways this is similar to the H2W2 + Red Jokers with Seamus issue. Boosting is supposed to be better than not boosting, but it isn't in this case. H2W2 is supposed to be better than not having it, but it isn't when a Red Joker gets flipped. Seeing how I've never had a scenario like this pan out in Warmachine in all my time playing and having played a lot less Malifaux having Seamus already take 2 dirt naps thanks to that, I'd dare say they are not remotely no the same scale. But you are right that it is a case where the "better and worst" are effectively reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) Regarding Warmachine, one thing that is similar to the H2W + Red Joker issue is the very corner case of Caine behind a wall, on a hill, while benefitting from Blur and being shot at by any number of Warjacks or Warbeasts. In this case, Caine's effective Def 26 means that any Jack/Beast with an effective RAT of less than 10 (which would be all jacks and beasts in the game, as well as most warcasters and warlocks) would actually have a higher chance of hitting Caine if they choose not to boost the attack roll. Thats fine, but you are still talking about the CHANCE TO HIT... I don't care about that. What I am talking about is that if this DOES occur, it is highly likely that a model DIES. So, in your scenario, with all that defense Caine has set up. How happy would people be that if that when that lucky roll came he is not only hit, but the damage done to him is maxed out and then an additional damage roll is added? Edited July 5, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 This is where we disagree. Unlike dice-based games, Malifaux is deterministic once the deck is down. What can change between a and :-fate:-fate flip? Consider two simple examples, same cards, different order. 1) 12, 10, 3, 9. 2) 3, 9, 12, 10. In case (1), the extra :-fate turns a moderate into a weak. In the second, you burn two solid cards which could have applied during the next duel. When you add those extra , you're burning cards from your deck. That can go either way, but IMHO it's certainly an extra risk, primarily because there are far more bad cards than good. Every time you lose a 10+ to a negative flip, it hurts your overall performance for the rest of the turn. It's a duel you have to cheat when you might not otherwise, which costs you resources, or simply outright fail. Statistically speaking, you will, if there are fewer good cards in the deck, flip more bad cards. Thus it won't really affect your performance during the rest of the turn. My apologies if I overstated your case, but at no point during this discussion did you address any of the benefits you get from H2W. You were focusing exclusively on the drawback. It seemed a reasonable assumption that you felt there was no upside to the ability, or at the very least one that was so minimal as to not be worth considering. I was filling in a gap in your presentation, and did so badly. It certainly wasn't intended as a strawman. The conversation, at least on my part, was about Red Joker on negative damage flips. When it comes to Red Joker in negative damage flips, H2W has no upside so I didn't feel a need to mention anything about its upsides vis a vis other aspects of the damage system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Statistically speaking, you will, if there are fewer good cards in the deck, flip more bad cards. Thus it won't really affect your performance during the rest of the turn. It doesn't really matter what the distribution is, it's going to be consistent. Yes, you'll flip more bad cards, but you're still going to waste good ones that come up, and that will occur in the same proportion as for other actions. I'm not sure how you can't consider it an impact. There are a finite number of "good" cards in the deck. Assuming no twists at all, you'll get to see and use them all as you work through the deck. Once you start introducing to the equation, you're losing those "good" cards - not only for the current action, but for future ones. A simple example is assuming you've got a 6, 11 as the next two cards. With a not only are you stuck with the 6, but your next duel which would have had the 11, doesn't. That means an action is potentially going to fail, or require cheating, which burns resources. The conversation, at least on my part, was about Red Joker on negative damage flips. When it comes to Red Joker in negative damage flips, H2W has no upside so I didn't feel a need to mention anything about its upsides vis a vis other aspects of the damage system. IMHO, you have to consider the upsides. You cannot isolate the drawback of H2W and use it to beat on a mechanic you don't like without acknowledging that there is some balance there. If a H2W2 model eats a Red Joker, that didn't occur out of the blue; at the very least, the controller chose to use the model in order to get its upsides. They took a gamble and it blew up on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Kel stops by and eyes how the thread's tone is doing...hopes it remains civil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 It doesn't really matter what the distribution is, it's going to be consistent. Yes, you'll flip more bad cards, but you're still going to waste good ones that come up, and that will occur in the same proportion as for other actions. I'm not sure how you can't consider it an impact. There are a finite number of "good" cards in the deck. Assuming no twists at all, you'll get to see and use them all as you work through the deck. Once you start introducing to the equation, you're losing those "good" cards - not only for the current action, but for future ones. A simple example is assuming you've got a 6, 11 as the next two cards. With a not only are you stuck with the 6, but your next duel which would have had the 11, doesn't. That means an action is potentially going to fail, or require cheating, which burns resources. You have, let's say, 20% good cards and 80% bad cards. You flip one card - you still have the same ratio; you flip twenty cards, you still have the same ratio. Statistically speaking. There are minute differences, but we aren't talking about singular cases here, but trends. Also note that there is an infinite number of good cards in the deck, since if you run out, you shuffle it anew. Now, I'm not saying that as an attack against you, so please don't take it as such, but how much statistics education do you have? I have... a lot. Working on a PhD in an engineering field tends to do that, really. So with that in mind, I'm saying that I'm rather convinced that I'm right in this case. If you wish to argue this further, I can start proving this mathematically, but I'm not sure that it is worth the effort unless you understand that proof and unless you are absolutely convinced that you are right and I am wrong. IMHO, you have to consider the upsides. You cannot isolate the drawback of H2W and use it to beat on a mechanic you don't like without acknowledging that there is some balance there. If a H2W2 model eats a Red Joker, that didn't occur out of the blue; at the very least, the controller chose to use the model in order to get its upsides. They took a gamble and it blew up on them. I'm not opposed to Red Joker doing mega damage only against H2W, I'm opposed to it doing mega damage on negative flips, period. H2W adding durability and then going boom at the Joker is actually a point in my favour, in my mind, since this reinforces the crazy swing in damage that occurs, which is my original point of contention here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 I'm not entirely convinced that there's not a potential impact of eating critical cards if the pool of "good" cards is small enough (for example, many spells need 10+ of a certain suit, seeing them lost during a dig can have a big impact), especially since the card pool may be theoretically infinite but cannot be reset by the player. In these cases, the probability of occurrence may be the same as any other card, but the impact would be notably higher. This is effectively the reverse of the Red Joker. I do, however, see your point on the general distribution and concede it without the need of inflicting proofs on anyone here. My stats may be rusty, but my dislike of proofs isn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Posting proofs is the fast track to a good-natured banning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Posting proofs is the fast track to a good-natured banning. Yet another reason to stay away from the evil that is statistics.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Yet another reason to stay away from the evil that is statistics.... Oops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malovane Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 One of the reasons I've come to enjoy Malifaux as much as I have is due to the joker mechanics. I love the wild swing they provide. It keeps the game tense. You can't count on anything. As the tag line says, bad things happen. It adds a layer to the levels of risk assessment involved in malifaux. Do you play more conservatively or do you try to count on your H2W to carry you through. Knowing how potent the red joker can be, you have to weight every move carefully. It keeps the game fresh and interesting rather than having a protracted chess battle. Manipulating and dealing with those odds seems to be a skill that sets players apart. Same goes for being able to judge distances. Its a skill that sets players apart, and it provides another layer of risk assessment. Can I risk coming up short on this charge/move? What's even better about malifaux is that even if you have the red joker hit, loosing/killing that one model is not necessarily a game decider. Being able to play to your strat/scheme and being able to win without any models left on the board helps to mitigate the effectiveness of the jokers. The current red joker helps reduce the certainty of completing bodyguard with those more resilient masters. There are so many great layers of risk assessment, randomness, and skill involved with Malifaux. The jokers as they currently exist provide a crucial element to that equation. The main issue I have with Malifaux is the current pool of strategies and schemes. A lot of the faction specific and master specific schemes are gravely imbalanced by comparison, and many of the strats seem to come down to speed particularly when shared. In general, I'd like to see a more diverse selection and a bit of rebalancing. More master specific schemes to choose from - schemes that are in sync with a master's play style. Overall, I'd rather see small course corrections and the occasional errata. Malifaux doesn't seem ready for (or in need of) a v2.0 with wide sweeping changes and/or a complete overhaul. Wyrd seems to be doing a great job of making the smallest and simplest changes needed to correct a problem situation. The vast majority of the game remains relatively balanced and equal. Anyway, I applaud Wyrd on their current game design and their efforts to maintain a balanced system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cain Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Seen no change to Kirai Seen no change to Shikome Must be a local meta joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 The main issue I have with Malifaux is the current pool of strategies and schemes. A lot of the faction specific and master specific schemes are gravely imbalanced by comparison, and many of the strats seem to come down to speed particularly when shared. In general, I'd like to see a more diverse selection and a bit of rebalancing. More master specific schemes to choose from - schemes that are in sync with a master's play style. This is more where I'm at. I love the game, but I would like to see less of an emphasis on speed, because a lot of Masters aren't quick, and so they have to try to kill enemy models to slow their opponent down...and the problem with that is that a lot of the speedy models are also pretty hard to kill for one reason or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Do you play more conservatively or do you try to count on your H2W to carry you through. The problem with this, especially in the resser faction, is that we often don't have a realistic choice other than to rely on it. For thematic reasons Ressers tend to be very easy to hit (we have almost universally terrible Df scores across the board), but somewhat resilient as we have slightly above average wounds for point total, and Hard to wound as the sop to prevent cheating and to make up for low df. The problem is that when the ability used to make up for having low df ends up being responsible for killing you, well it can leave a bad taste. Personally I like the red joker mechanic, but i very much dislike that it can be responsible for killing your model when it should, in theory, be safe. Personally, rathor than change how the jokers work I'd rather change H2W to something where it gives it's current effects AND Red Jokers can only cause severe dmg to a model with H2W, or when flipping dmg cards against a H2W model the controller of the model can tell the damaging player when t stop flipping cards for dmg. The problem even with those simple changes is that it adds even more complexity to the game (in both cases) and or slow the game down (in the second example). Currently I understand everyone's view points on this issue, but as someone who plays ressers against people who understand how to, and do, leverage the fishing strat, it is exceptionally disheartening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 For thematic reasons Ressers tend to be very easy to hit (we have almost universally terrible Df scores across the board), but somewhat resilient as we have slightly above average wounds for point total, and Hard to wound as the sop to prevent cheating and to make up for low df. I find comments like this intriguing, and they always make me want to look further into it. Thankfully, RottingPanda has a whole spreadsheet and has shared some of this information on the boards previously. His thread can be found here. Looking over there we see the following tables: AVERAGES, HIGHS AND LOWS DEFENSE [table=width: 650, class: outer_border] [tr] [td]Category[/td] [td]Average[/td] [td]Highest[/td] [td]Lowest[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Master[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]8 (Lilith, Perdita)[/td] [td]2 (Ramos, Pandora, Dreamer, Leveticus, Kirai)[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Henchmen[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]6 (Ophelia)[/td] [td]4 (Lucius, Molly)[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Totem[/td] [td]4 [/td] [td]8 (Voodoo Doll)[/td] [td]2 (Essence of Power)[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]7 (Coryphee Duet, Bete Noire, Candy, Baby Kade)[/td] [td]1 (Pigapult)[/td] [/tr][/table] AVERAGES BY SS COST AND FACTION This is a breakdown of averages only by SS cost and Faction. It is for minions only (no Totems, Henchmen or Masters) and I did not bother with Minions over 10 SS (there are only five) nor with Minions under 2 SS (who cares?). Also, because rounding produces a whole lot of similar numbers, I’m including fractions. 10 SOULSTONES [table=width: 650, class: outer_border] [tr] [td]Category[/td] [td]Wk[/td] [td]Cg[/td] [td]Wp[/td] [td]Ca[/td] [td]Df[/td] [td]Wd[/td] [td]MC[/td] [td]MS[/td] [td]RC[/td] [td]RS[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]8.5[/td] [td]5.67[/td] [td]4.83[/td] [td]4.33[/td] [td]10.17[/td] [td]6.5[/td] [td]5.83[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Arcanist[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]6 [/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Guild[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [td]- [/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Neverborn[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]8.5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]3.5[/td] [td]11[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]6.5[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Outcast[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion – Resurrectionist[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]9.5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]9.5[/td] [td]6.5[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr][/table] 9 SOULSTONES [table=width: 650, class: outer_border] [tr] [td]Category[/td] [td]Wk[/td] [td]Cg[/td] [td]Wp[/td] [td]Ca[/td] [td]Df[/td] [td]Wd[/td] [td]MC[/td] [td]MS[/td] [td]RC[/td] [td]RS[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion[/td] [td]4.6[/td] [td]6.4[/td] [td]5.8[/td] [td]4.9[/td] [td]4.6[/td] [td]8.44[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5.2[/td] [td]3.67[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Arcanist[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]6.67[/td] [td]5.33[/td] [td]3.67[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]8.33[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Guild[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Neverborn[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]9.5[/td] [td]6.5[/td] [td]7.5[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Outcast[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]10[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]2.5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]2.5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion – Resurrectionist[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr][/table] 8 SOULSTONES [table=width: 650, class: outer_border] [tr] [td]Category[/td] [td]Wk[/td] [td]Cg[/td] [td]Wp[/td] [td]Ca[/td] [td]Df[/td] [td]Wd[/td] [td]MC[/td] [td]MS[/td] [td]RC[/td] [td]RS[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion[/td] [td]4.62[/td] [td]6.85[/td] [td]5.46[/td] [td]4.2[/td] [td]4.46[/td] [td]8.46[/td] [td]5.46[/td] [td]4.54[/td] [td]5.13[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Arcanist[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]9.5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]8.5[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Guild[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]3.5[/td] [td]3.5[/td] [td]9.5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Neverborn[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]7.33[/td] [td]4.67[/td] [td]4.67[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]8.33[/td] [td]5.33[/td] [td]3.67[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]3[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Outcast[/td] [td]4.25[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]5.75[/td] [td]3.5[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]8.75[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4.33[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion – Resurrectionist[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]6.5[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]2[/td] [/tr][/table] 7 SOULSTONES [table=width: 650, class: outer_border] [tr] [td]Category[/td] [td]Wk[/td] [td]Cg[/td] [td]Wp[/td] [td]Ca[/td] [td]Df[/td] [td]Wd[/td] [td]MC[/td] [td]MS[/td] [td]RC[/td] [td]RS[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion[/td] [td]4.53[/td] [td]5.53x[/td] [td]5.58[/td] [td]5.05[/td] [td]4.32[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]5.12[/td] [td]4.12[/td] [td]5.43[/td] [td]4.13[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Arcanist[/td] [td]5.67[/td] [td]6.33[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5.33[/td] [td]6.67[/td] [td]5.33[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Guild[/td] [td]3.88[/td] [td]4.38[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4.88[/td] [td]3.75[/td] [td]8.63[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]5.6[/td] [td]4.2[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Neverborn[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]7[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]8[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4.5[/td] [td]-[/td] [td]-[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion - Outcast[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]7.33[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]5.33[/td] [td]4.33[/td] [td]6.33[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Minion – Resurrectionist[/td] [td]4.67[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]5.33[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]9.33[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]4.67[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [/tr][/table] I found these very helpful overall when I was looking at comparisons, and I look forward to the completion of the 6ss through 2ss models. It may change once those are out, but on a quick look at the data he currently has: 10ss models - Res have the 2nd highest average defense. 9ss models - Res have the highest average defense. 8ss models - Res have the 2nd highest, beating guild but tied with all other factions but NB 7ss models - Res have 2nd lowest, beating out Guild. Is the terrible Df score from the lower cost models or is it perception? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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