Okay, everyone lie down on the floor and keep calm!

[Dumb Luck]

Sandwhich, you forgot a Showgirl. She has Angelica too.

[DeleteAccount]

Have to disagree completely about the Shikome. Times I've used it outside Kirai it has pretty much just beein avoided, gotten engaged and had it's life become hell. Single minded is a huge huge huge problem the moment you aren't mobile enough to assure you don't get engaged and having a shikomi without being able to do absolutely anything while getting punched is plain horrible.

Not saying it can't work, but if you get a game where this happens, it's literaly 8 stones of dead weight.

[Calmdown]

Just read this OP now.

There's two things wrong with what you say:

1) You only have a certain amount of time to make changes to models and fix them before people will decide that you're probably not going to do it at all. How long has book 2 been out for? Half of it still needs errata'ing.

2) When you do errata things, you errata based on popular forum opinion and whining rather than testing things out yourself or actually understanding the dynamics of why something is broken. A good example of this is Cuddling Nephilim Heart because some players in the US cried after it. In the UK we considered that list a joke list, and it was. For further example, errata'ing Larva was not the most important thing to fix in Somer; his hand destruction ability was. Ideally you needed to do both. Removing Shikome's Prey-on-summon was not a good 'fix' for Kirai. She's a badly designed model with too much mobility. Etc.

3) The power levels of models in Malifaux are at such a massive differential, that the game is hugely fundamentally broken. You should be able to see how and why this is without forum feedback. You should be able to fix this without the forums. The fact that youre looking at the forums to have to know what is fundamentally wrong with something like Nicodem or Ramos is quite worrying.

[mythicFOX]

@RazHem - You can still objective grab effectively. It also denies the board to a specific model inside it's threat range. This is really useful against specific models. Having their key threat / objective grabber unable to enter the threat range around her can lock them out of the game, which is almost as good as killing them.

It's almost like grudging a key model on your opponent's side to force them to protect / kill them rather than engage.

[nerdelemental]

Just read this OP now.

There's two things wrong with what you say:

1) You only have a certain amount of time to make changes to models and fix them before people will decide that you're probably not going to do it at all. How long has book 2 been out for? Half of it still needs errata'ing.

People should probably Calmdown, then, and take a better look at our history. (see what I did there? I played with words. That's fun).

2) When you do errata things, you errata based on popular forum opinion and whining rather than testing things out yourself or actually understanding the dynamics of why something is broken.

Easy, Tiger. I'm not sure you actually know what we do or how we do it.

A good example of this is Cuddling Nephilim Heart because some players in the US cried after it. In the UK we considered that list a joke list, and it was. For further example, errata'ing Larva was not the most important thing to fix in Somer; his hand destruction ability was. Ideally you needed to do both. Removing Shikome's Prey-on-summon was not a good 'fix' for Kirai. She's a badly designed model with too much mobility. Etc.

You might want to take some deep breaths and relax a bit. You know, a lot of this sure smells of opinion. Especially when you throw around "In the US....In the UK...." so...regional meta-game reveals different results but we made a mistake when we didn't tailor revision to a different region's meta. Got it. In the notes.

Sometimes we've been too quick to revise, but then we get criticized. Then we take our time, debate the issues and test and we get criticized. Seems we're not going to be able to "win" in conditions where there is no win condition. But we'll continue to do our best and promise to continue to hear every opinion as best we can and we'll continue to errata models that are perceived problematic.

Also worth pointing out: holding us to listening only to whining on the web is a misnomer: how else are we supposed to get feedback in the year 2012? Snail mail letters? Personal anecdotes? (well, I do get a bit of feedback that way).

Oh, and if I'm part of a model's revision, I tend to test every side of the potential change.

3) The power levels of models in Malifaux are at such a massive differential, that the game is hugely fundamentally broken. You should be able to see how and why this is without forum feedback. You should be able to fix this without the forums. The fact that youre looking at the forums to have to know what is fundamentally wrong with something like Nicodem or Ramos is quite worrying.

We don't. We work on our own, too. We discuss it and fight about issues. But it's difficult for me to understand what your post is really about, Calmdown, other than to incite some kind of revolution or make us angry or make us look somehow bad. You almost made me react emotionally. Almost. Until I sat back and said to myself, "What's this dude want, exactly?" None of us look to the forums for anything. However, players use the forums for a lot of reasons. One of them is to complain. In those complaints are sometimes honest, good-natured criticism: where a player sees a problem and would like to discuss it for validity and possibly to bring a problem to our attention. We could ignore them. We could say we don't want negativity to our game discussed on *OUR* forums - but we don't. We say: keep talking. If this is how you want us to hear you, then we'll listen.

Now, Calmdown, it seems like you'd prefer us to tell the critics to shut up, that Wyrd can handle it without their complaining. That the forum is a place to hold hands and sing and pass daisies around. I love those threads where I get to be a gamer hippy. But I think we'll continue to allow our players to use the forums in all sorts of other manners, too, so long as a line of civility doesn't get too blatantly crossed.

Because, even your post could have been censored as inciting, but I really don't mind leaving it and allowing others to either agree or disagree with your position. My guess is, though, that others will start to beat you up over it, flames will follow, and eventually this thread will get locked because people will be offended by your accusations/position. Interestingly, I doubt it'll be the Tophats that come with torches against you. We'll just have to follow behind and eventually say "Well, looks like this thread has run its course".

For me, though: thanks for your opinion and for sharing. It's clear you hope the best for a game you've invested in and I hope we can deliver that [sooner or later].

[Sandwich]

BTW

I disagree with the fact that none of the Book 2 spirits bring anything to the other Rezers.

• Datsu-ba is excelent as a force multiplier with both Nicodem and McMourning. There is nothing wrong with a model that can kill multiple dogs to give corpse counters and at the same time create Gaki and Onryo on top. I've seen her used multiple times successfully in the last month to do just this.
  
• Shikome are still excelent blitz models for Rezers, the only issue being they don't drop corpse counters, but that is hardly an issue with either Seamus (Who I always find has more than enough) or McMourning (who can generate them by killing models).
  
• Onryo as you have said work well with Seamus.
  
• Night Terrors though Spirits are tough, fast and have a useful -2 Wp aura.
  

That leaves

• Ikiryo (which is really part of the Master in the same way LCB is).
  
• Lost Love (Master specific Totems appear in every faction and can't be used by anyone else)
  
• Seishin (Master specific)
  
• Gaki (which I agree don't do an awful lot for other Masters.. UNLESS ofc you are getting them free from Datsu-ba, which you could definitely argue makes them a valid multi-master minion).
  

Also on the Subject of Rafkin. He's amazingly good as a force multiplier. Read carefully how his abilities work and then look at Canine Remains.

Barring the Onryo and the Night Terror, because the Onryo has a use outside of Kiraiwith Seamus, and the Night Terror is a top tier objective grabber,

I don't think those are accurate descriptions of Kirai's models.

To start, with Shikome,

They're fast, sure, and they have pretty decent damage, but that's all.

And they can only deal damage to one model until that model dies, after which they're rendered useless for an entire turn.

Unless you chose to forgo their (All) action, at which point you've paid 8 points for an objective grabber that isn't as good as its 3 point counterpart.

And Datsue-Ba, you're spending 7 points to kill Dogs.

You gain nothing from Gaki and unless you're taking a Dog-Kill plan with Seamus, Onryo don't have much use.

And shame on you for killing dogs as Seamus, he kills women.

Dogs are below him.

Again, I just want to restate what I posted in that big giant doodad a few pages back in saying that ALL of the Spirits in Book 2 are pretty decent minions.

For Kirai.

And also harkening back to my post about Kirai taking up half the faction and the other half being filled with nonsense,

Saying models like Seishin or Ikiryo are "Kirai specific" and then disregarding everything else doesn't really work because they take up a model spot, whereas LCB and Dreamer count, in the book, as 1 out of 12.

Sandwhich, you forgot a Showgirl. She has Angelica too.

Angelica came in the 3rd book, so I left her out.

Just read this OP now.

There's two things wrong with what you say:

1) You only have a certain amount of time to make changes to models and fix them before people will decide that you're probably not going to do it at all. How long has book 2 been out for? Half of it still needs errata'ing.

2) When you do errata things, you errata based on popular forum opinion and whining rather than testing things out yourself or actually understanding the dynamics of why something is broken. A good example of this is Cuddling Nephilim Heart because some players in the US cried after it. In the UK we considered that list a joke list, and it was. For further example, errata'ing Larva was not the most important thing to fix in Somer; his hand destruction ability was. Ideally you needed to do both. Removing Shikome's Prey-on-summon was not a good 'fix' for Kirai. She's a badly designed model with too much mobility. Etc.

3) The power levels of models in Malifaux are at such a massive differential, that the game is hugely fundamentally broken. You should be able to see how and why this is without forum feedback. You should be able to fix this without the forums. The fact that youre looking at the forums to have to know what is fundamentally wrong with something like Nicodem or Ramos is quite worrying.

I wish there could've been a kinder air in your statement so that people would've been able to take it constructively. This is because you have the opportunity to positively impact the Company (As you're posting in a thread designated by them for criticism) and instead you go on a rampage of anger.

So I'm sorry.

@RazHem - You can still objective grab effectively. It also denies the board to a specific model inside it's threat range. This is really useful against specific models. Having their key threat / objective grabber unable to enter the threat range around her can lock them out of the game, which is almost as good as killing them.

It's almost like grudging a key model on your opponent's side to force them to protect / kill them rather than engage.

Err,

Part I;

Spending 8 points for an Objective grabber?

Look no further than the Night Terror!

3 Points of sheer grabby goodness, with some Ranged Counters thrown in to ensure a safe and pleasant trip!

Part II;

The Shikome is pretty much unstoppable, its immune to movement impairing effects, has flight, Spirit and Nimble.

To add to that, it has the ability to gain Fast.

That effectively a 20" movement rate per turn this model is under the effect of Single Minded.

So yes, in theory you can just go in and assassinate something if you'd like.

And that is pretty scary.

Unfortunately, without Kirai's movement and healing shenanigans, there are just too many counters to a single assassin model that most times the Resurrectionists will forgo this model in favor of other, older and more synergetic models.

While there is very little argument towards the mobility or lethality to a Shikome if it gets its way, there's no doubt that if your opponent sees a Shikome on board, they'll have a model capable of outkilling it, outmoving it, or Cuddling it to stupid.

Most players will take these models for their basic usefulness with the rest of the crew and not as a specific counter to your models.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Sandwich

[omnivision6]

Just read this OP now.

There's two things wrong with what you say:

1) You only have a certain amount of time to make changes to models and fix them before people will decide that you're probably not going to do it at all. How long has book 2 been out for? Half of it still needs errata'ing.

2) When you do errata things, you errata based on popular forum opinion and whining rather than testing things out yourself or actually understanding the dynamics of why something is broken. A good example of this is Cuddling Nephilim Heart because some players in the US cried after it. In the UK we considered that list a joke list, and it was. For further example, errata'ing Larva was not the most important thing to fix in Somer; his hand destruction ability was. Ideally you needed to do both. Removing Shikome's Prey-on-summon was not a good 'fix' for Kirai. She's a badly designed model with too much mobility. Etc.

3) The power levels of models in Malifaux are at such a massive differential, that the game is hugely fundamentally broken. You should be able to see how and why this is without forum feedback. You should be able to fix this without the forums. The fact that youre looking at the forums to have to know what is fundamentally wrong with something like Nicodem or Ramos is quite worrying.

My favorite part about this post is the fact that you "love" this game. You said that in a not too long ago podcast interview. Sometimes I love to powergame. When I do, I play Warmachine. The game is made for that. The company encourages it. When I want to play an amazingly fun, flavorfull, and deep game, I play Malifaux.

So, maybe you should take a break from Mali and try something else for a bit. All gamers cycle games. You just may be at that point where you need a Mali-break. And again, dont take this post in a negative light. And realize, you dont know everything about this game. And even if you do, so what?

[Ratty]

With nimble and the ability to move through walls you can create a kill zone. An area the target model can't afford to enter without reprisals. This can be very effective. You never need to even get to the target model for the Shikome to have a huge effect on the game, the threat is often enough. Even better if you have ways of luring the model in, that increases the area denial as they can't even afford to get close as they risk bring lured into the striking zone. In a game which is about strategies and schemes this can easily win you games.

I have seen Shikome being used very badly before now though. You can't just use them as a cruise missile. You have to use them cleverly. Using the threat of them to keep a key model out of the game while you deal with the rest of their force. Attack at just the right time. If you can get it right you will take our your target and be able to grab objectives late in the game, while gaining board control early game.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Ratty

[omnivision6]

With nimble and the ability to move through walls you can create a kill zone. An area the target model can't afford to enter without reprisals. This can be very effective. You never need to even get to the target model for the Shikome to have a huge effect on the game, the that is often enough. Even better if you have ways of luring the model in, that increases the area denial a they can't even afford to get close as they risk bring led into the striking zone. In a game which is about strategies and schemes this can easily win you games.

I have seen Shikome being used very badly before now though. You can't just use them as a cruise missile. You have to use them cleverly. Using the that of them to keep a key model out of the game while you deal with the rest of their force. Attack at just the right time. If you can get it right you will take our your target and be able to grab objectives late in the game, while gaining board control early game.

but, the internet told me that board control is useless. That the only way to control a model is to kill it...

[DeleteAccount]

With nimble and the ability to move through walls you can create a kill zone. An area the target model can't afford to enter without reprisals. This can be very effective. You never need to even get to the target model for the Shikome to have a huge effect on the game, the threat is often enough. Even better if you have ways of luring the model in, that increases the area denial as they can't even afford to get close as they risk bring lured into the striking zone. In a game which is about strategies and schemes this can easily win you games.

I have seen Shikome being used very badly before now though. You can't just use them as a cruise missile. You have to use them cleverly. Using the threat of them to keep a key model out of the game while you deal with the rest of their force. Attack at just the right time. If you can get it right you will take our your target and be able to grab objectives late in the game, while gaining board control early game.

Yes, you can create a kill zone, but the moment you engage said shikome with anything that is not it's prey, it becomes utterly useless unless it risks a parting strike or another of my own models goes in to baby sit it and free it from being engaged. Not all crews have the movement shenanigans to lock down a flying spirit, but those that do make it become a horrible addition to the list. And well, Von Schill is very liked and if he ain't the prey, he can beat the shikome down silly in melee and if he is the prey, he is more than capable of kitting the shikome or similar antics.

Can it work? Yes, but for 8 stones, I can add 2 more and get more reliable board control in the form of the dead rider for example who can affect anybody, attack anybody and drag anybody to a very unpleasant place or a bete noir who gives board control in the form of a very mean melee minion popping out of nowhere to do a peekabo run.

Like stated, for objectives, night terrors are plain better even if the shikome can get 4 actions in a best case scenario. With Kirai they are beasts, but without swirling or something similar to assure contact without being an action syphon, I just cannot see a shikome as a compelling choice outside Kirai except maybe for deliver message which could go very smoothly if you manage to not get engaged.

Datsue Ba I haven't tried outside Kirai though, so I won't say much there, but seems like you have to have a pretty hot hand to pull off a Gakifest while nuking dogs for corpses, though getting a couple of gaki/onryo plus the corpses may be worth a try at the least.

[Dustcrusher]

The power levels of models in Malifaux are at such a massive differential, that the game is hugely fundamentally broken. You should be able to see how and why this is without forum feedback. You should be able to fix this without the forums. The fact that youre looking at the forums to have to know what is fundamentally wrong with something like Nicodem or Ramos is quite worrying.

Maybe they don't have time to look at every single issue. Every time I've read an interview with a gamer-turned-designer, they all have something in common- "I'd love to be able to play/paint more for fun but I just don't have the time now- running the business takes most of my energy."

I also feel that Dead Heat is a way they can put at least faction balance to the test a bit. If the Ressers (for example) come up dead last by a huge margin, then that might prompt some revisions for Malifaux 2.0 (if not sooner).

I have a suggestion for you in the meantime. No, a real one, not a smart alecky one.

Compile all of the things that you feel are broken into a single document, along with key observations and proposed fixes, and send it to Wyrd via email.

I know you and your community have spoken about various game issues in the past, but it's the nature of message boards for individual posts to get lost in the tide of new topics. I think if the Wyrd staff had everything in one document that they could read and refer to, it would add weight to your suggestions (and not just from printing it).

If that won't work, maybe do a blog dedicated to proposed changes, and each post focuses on one issue, along with observations, proposed fixes, and test results.

...why are you all staring at me like that? *wink*

[Gruesome]

There are two things that I do NOT believe:

1. That Dead Heat will teach anything about the balance of factions.

2. "The power levels of models in Malifaux are at such a massive differential, that the game is hugely fundamentally broken. " -- Calmdown

I am definitely in the camp that thinks rezzers could use a little help in very specific areas like:

1. strats and schemes for which speed > all

2. The SS pools of Nicodem and Seamus are CRIPPLING.

But aside from that, statements like "massive differential" evoke a reaction in me similar to the one I had when Sandwich called the Dead Rider, "ok".

The hyperbole thrown around here does nothing but close people's ears.

Especially when Calmdown's own signature block says something to the effect of:

McMourning 900-0-0, Nicodem 7000-0-1 as some sort of current record tally for him...

I am in absolute agreement with many opinions stated, but troll posts fog everyone's eyes to the valid points hidden within.

[Undisclosed]

The best thing that could be done would be for those who are claiming imbalance [i'm not putting myself in either camp here though i don't believe Malifaux, or any game out there, is balanced] is to point to specifics within the game instead of a lot of generalisation which is happening in threads at the moment. People will always oppose your view, be it for whatever reason, and currently you are doing more to close their minds than open them by seemingly exaggerated general statements of imbalance rather than taking the time to run down the game and point out the big ones and give a nod towards a solution.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Undisclosed

[Rathnard]

The best thing that could be done would be for those who are claiming imbalance ...(is) to point to specifics within the game instead of a lot of generalisation which is happening in threads at the moment.

+1

Sandwich posted probably one of the best arguements for game imbalance I've read thus far on this thread (specifically re: Ressers - a faction I'm probably not experienced enough to make a judgement call on) and while I don't agree with him on all points, I appreciate the effort he made to lay out his arguement. It would be nice if some of the other posts were more concise and had fewer generalisations.

[Cats Laughing]

I don't agree with all of what Sandwich said in his post on pg 2 of the thread (mostly on the designation of masters within the categories he noted, but those are quibbles). However, one thing he pointed out was:

Kirai was designed to need Spirits and Spirits were designed for her. However, due to not dropping corpse counters, Spirits are somewhat anti-synergistic with other Resser masters who use corpse counters to raise new troops.

Now, I'm not experienced to make pronouncements, but I've heard arguements for and against Resser masters actually ressurecting models in game and how important that is to their play style. While it might not be a major component of successful play, it still is an option, and based on that, taking Spirits is somewhat counterproductive (anti-pun intended).

This means that the Kirai crew created in Book 2 was almost a separate crew from the rest of the faction.

Showgirls and the Dreamer's Nightmare crews are similar, but at the same time different from this Kirai-separateness aspect, IMHO.

Several Showgirl models are constructs that therefore have some syngery with Ramos, while both Rasputina and Marcus can hand out the "Frozen Heart" or "Beast" traits that they desire in a model. Additionally, both Rasputina and Marcus gained models in book 2 that could also hand out the related traits. Neither actually needs for their minions to be completely "Frozen Heart" or "Beast" due to being able to hand out that trait and also because they really don't buff that specific trait all that much anyway (Rasputina will never use more than 4 ice mirrors in a turn, and typically needs only one a turn, while Marcus has Howl, yay... and "companion" which is cool but is a one model version)

As for the Nightmare crew, they are a bit closer to Kirai's Spirits in their separateness from the rest of the faction. Except for two models that see complaints on these forums on occasion. The Twins are somehow Nephilim, Woes and Nightmares, which mean they synergize with all of the Masters that desire a specific trait (Dreamer, Lilith, and Pandora), rather than just one.

I don't know if this is particularly a bad thing, but it can certainly lead to an impression of imbalance. Essentially, it can seem like every faction except Ressers, got a pile of models that can work for everyone, while Ressers got a new crew and a few models that work with the initial 3. This may not lead to actual imbalance, but it can give that impression.

Another comment I noticed while continuing to read the thread is an issue with timed tournaments. It's possible that Ressers are disadvantaged by timed games, much like infantry+AOE+Spray heavy Menoth in Warmachine is disadvantaged by timed turns, whereas in untimed formats they do just fine. This could be due to the complexity of the faction, and I can understand the idea, even if I can't vouch for the truth of it. I know most of my games, regardless of faction, take forever, but that has a lot to do with my inexperience.

I don't currently have complaints with the game, though I do constantly wonder why (from both a fluff and rules POV) the Twins have all 3 traits (Neph, Woe, Nightmare) and not just one (or maybe two) of those traits. I don't need to have those traits removed to be happy with the game, but I certainly would love to know why they were designed that way.

The complexity of Malifaux makes it much harder for me to be confident in claiming balance or imbalance, whereas I can think of other d6 games where the simplicity of the game makes it very easy to see (and often mathematically prove) the balance/imbalance in the game.

I do see great merit in looking into the schemes and strategies, as well as the models themselves. The game is a whole and not simply an assassination or kill everything game. It is very plausible that schemes/strategies catering to movement will favor certain lists and possibly even factions. Kirai, Dreamer and Colette have all been touted as powerful due to their movement shenanigans, whereas Rasputina often gets warnings about taking her in strategies requiring speed (despite having access to the Duet and other speed models). I don't know how much this can be worked on, given that greater movement almost always leads to the ability to concentrate force and thereby also equate to greater killing power and land grabbing ability (at least when land grabs are calculated at end of game).

One idea that just popped into mind is to possibly modify certain strategies/schemes to require areas to be held for multiple turns or to grant more VP if held for multiple turns (rather than just at game end). Speed can still be powerful there as you can try to grab early (or stall an opponent from grabbing via jamming), but it does cater a bit more to the ability to tank and survive for multiple turns. Faster models tend to be easier to kill (or at least chase away), though I know that's not true in all cases, so needing to hold an area for multiple turns can balance out the ability to get there first (or swoop in at the end).

Yes, this was somewhat stream of consciousness...

[Rathnard]

I don't agree with all of what Sandwich said in his post on pg 2 of the thread (mostly on the designation of masters within the categories he noted, but those are quibbles). However, one thing he pointed out was:

Kirai was designed to need Spirits and Spirits were designed for her. However, due to not dropping corpse counters, Spirits are somewhat anti-synergistic with other Resser masters who use corpse counters to raise new troops.

Now, I'm not experienced to make pronouncements, but I've heard arguements for and against Resser masters actually ressurecting models in game and how important that is to their play style. While it might not be a major component of successful play, it still is an option, and based on that, taking Spirits is somewhat counterproductive (anti-pun intended).

That's also where I agree with Sandwich - Kirai was designed to synergise with Spirits but since they weren't undead and didn't drop corpse counters, they didn't synergise so well with the other Resser masters (Nicodem with corpses, Seamus w. Undead, Mcmourning less so).

That said, this assumes that the non-Kirai Resser Masters can't get any use at all out of Kirai's spirits. A few pages back Ratty pointed out the usefulness of Onryo, Datsuba and Shikome outside of a Kirai crew so perhaps their lack of corpse counters or the undead characteristic isn't so debilitating after all? Does Nicodem, for instance, really need nothing but corpse-droppers to be competitive?

Furthermore, to conclude that all these Spirits in book 2 makes Ressers less competitive is to assume that the Ressers are significantly compromised by having a lower pool of non-spirit minions available.

My experience with Resser crews thus far has entirely consisted of playing against them. Personally I feel that the Ressers as a Faction (with or without Kirai) does not put the player at a significant disadvantage in your average Malifaux game (competitive or otherwise).

That said, Ressers are the faction I'm least familiar with so while I maintain my opinion, I'm not willing to dismiss the experiences of other players out of hand.

[ravenborne]

How did I miss this thread? Wow. Two part post. The first is anecdotal and non-specific. The second I will delve into specifics.

The problems with rezzers: I am going to blame Zee. That’s right, Zee was a previous Malifaux designer and a good friend. The reason I blame Zee is that he is the best Resurrectionist player I have ever seen. I mean, it’s stupid what Zee could do with Rezzer Masters. He had some sort of tempo and understanding beyond normal humans on how they work. In fact, in our local gaming group, Zee was the only person Webster (2012 Gen Con Master of Malifaux) had any real concern over. And Zee with Nicodem could actually tie or beat Webster with his Neverborn.

Zee seemed to understand tempo. He seemed to know what he needed to be doing in turn one to have his victory in turn 4, 5 or 6. It always felt like whatever he did nicely cascaded into the final victory of the game in a way that his opponents just couldn’t see. I think that means that rezzers have some sort of temp involved that only a few people really get.

So clearly there is something us mortals don’t get about rezzers, and that bothers me. What bother me more is that a great deal of the cuddles that went into rezzers during the design process seem to have come from things Zee did that none of us understand (this might not be true, it’s largely my perception). I just don’t know.

Read my following post for my mortal thoughts on how Rezzers work and fail. I’m trying to keep it brief, but I am failing so far.

[Rathnard]

So clearly there is something us mortals don’t get about rezzers, and that bothers me. What bother me more is that a great deal of the nerfs that went into rezzers during the design process seem to have come from things Zee did that none of us understand (this might not be true, it’s largely my perception). I just don’t know.

Facinating!

I wasn't around for the original Malifaux Beta so it's very interesting to hear your perception of it. Following through and assuming this is how the beta actually panned out, you could conclude that the Ressers are in fact the best balanced faction in the game.

[Ratty]

I agree Rezers are all about Tempo. And the real issue I think most people have playing them is not quite syncing with this tempo. The reason I think this is hard is because they have multiple different Tempo's that have to be adjusted on the fly.

Summoning Tempo: Rezers can only summon a certain amount of models a turn, Full Stop. But on top of that it costs you AP and cards you could be using elsewhere. A big part of playing Rezers successfully is getting this tempo right. So often you see players hiding in their deployment Summoning like mad, or worrying about corpse counters they can't use. I think this is the big issue people see with Spirits, they don't drop corpse counters, however if you understand the Tempo of your force this isn't an issue. What do I care if I'm taking a Spirit that doesn't drop counters with Seamus, if I know I'm going to gain enough Corpses to Summon when I need to without them.

Movement Tempo: Knowing when to move and when to hold back. Sometimes even if you have a objective like Claim Jump you need to hold back, or get their at a certain time. For example, the last game I played with Seamus I held back for the first 3 turns. Pulling key models in with Belles, tagging them with the Hanged's Whispers and then dispatching them with Seamus. Seamus kept out of sight behind blocking terrain till the model was in place, Jumped out focus shotted them, summoned a new Belle and then was pulled back by that Belle next activation. And I could do this because I knew in the last 3 turns I had the movement to hit the locations I needed to on the board. (Note: in this game over half my force was spirits)

Edited June 20, 2012 by Ratty

[osoi]

I know I am not going to be able to articulte this as well as I want to but bear with me. I undertsand where Sandwich is coming from with his argument (I also dont agree with some of it but) I can follow his logic and see the point of view that he is coming from.

I am a long time Resser player with everyone BUT Kirai (I have her but just havent put her together) and have found that Ressers really only suffer when you are not flexible in your crew selection (such as fixed list or limited ss pool tournaments) They do tend to play out with some longer turns as well which can hurt when under a time constraint.

The lack of other living/undead models being fielded (ie those that drop corpse counters) fielded by other factions does impact on the Ressers as a faction, but you have to and can work around that with each of the masters and models at our disposal. Ressers arent actually a slow faction overall we have access to a lot of deceptively fast minions, I think we just have too many other models that can more easily shut down some of our draws (summoning models, terrifying).

Now onto summoning, I rarely do it as it is an expensive exercise, Nicodem likes to for me but even then its not often. McMourning really suffers if he isnt able to get body parts but that is for as much as powering him up as to summoning.

As for model release and focus, I am a big supporter of using an Onryo with Seamus almost to the point of an auto include, she helps him against one area where he can struggle when he cant utilise his toolbox (or its drastically reduced). I actually prefer Necropunks to Night Terrors due to handing out slow and dropping corpses, I have never found the need for Night Terrors. Crooligans and Rafkin I havent used so I wont comment but they dont jump out at me.

As for strategies and schemes, we do suffer a bit here (especially in our faction specific and master specific schemes) but overall we can perform alright. A few new strats with not so much of a rapid moving focus could change things up a bit too.

[rancor709]

The highest imbalances for Ressers really stems from these things, lack of general movement , lack of additional actions, too many abilities tied to specificly a model being living, and a reliance of most models strong abilities to be come from a 9+:crows:.

To Raven's Point on ressers, there is a tempo to how a nicodem crew runs. It is a faction on the whole to which initiative and action order is critical. A failure at any point in the chain will unravel it. But when executed it is like an avalanche.

In an objective based game that rewards someone for getting somewhere first, many masters are overly hampered by there speed. Book 2 on the whole are built for speed on a level previously unseen. Addtionally a majority of book 2 is non living models. These two helped to combine to bring certain ressers down the food chain. Really the majority of book 1 has a hard time measuring up with 2 straight up because the basic definitions of minion cost to ability drastically changed.

The bottom line is for a resser to win nearly everything in a game has to go right for the resser and several things have to not happen for the opponent to which the resser player has little control. The luck factor is extremely high for certain masters to win making consistency an issue. Additional certain masters can outright dominate others and in a majority of scenarios assuming equal skill and optimal builds for the strategy, if your taking a book 2 heavy force and I'm taking a book 1 heavy force you are at a distinct advantage that will require a lot of luck to overcome. My option for distract with Nicodem is to either stone it, or build a force that will simply slaughter my opponent. I don't have a consistent means of transportation him to the other half of the board and still have him be really meaningful in the game. I have the option to avatar but that requires addtional planning and an avatar supportive build. Ideally I could say i'm taking this master, and your taking this other master and no matter what is flipped there would be no worries for either. Or you bring the one's that can do it all, back in line with everyone else so that they can excel at some but struggle mightly with others thus ensuring faction to faction balance.

As to Kirai being the reason for resser woes I'd say the way must of our abilities in book 1 are reliant on the opponent being living has a much stronger effect. Point in case Black blood works on everything but neverborn. Necrotic spray only works on living. When you start making more and more unliving things I have less and less reason to bring models built to fight or gaining bonuses for Living models.

Ap modification look at something the hanged an 8 stone model and compare it to something like Lelu or lilitu. Their ap modifiers alone make them much more dangerous than a hanged can be. Because of not having something like casting expert, or ranged expert. The lack of Ap modifiers in ressers is staggering outside of masters, I think we have 3 models that come with additional ap stock standard, while most other factions are rocking 8 models with addtional ap outside of masters. Those do more to imbalance it than spirits working poorly with the other masters.

[osoi]

I should just edit my above post and say Ratty said it a lot better than me

[rancor709]

Ratty articulated the tempo correctly. And there is a lot the ressers can do. they are my favorite faction and I have a very nice record with them. Beyond that there are as I addressed some fundamental base issues that hamper the crews that wear the green which I addressed above. Not saying you can't win with them, I have actually won more with them than I've lost, but I stand by a lot has to go right especially in the initiative phases and your order of operations has to be spot on in the turn.

[Ratty]

Ratty articulated the tempo correctly. And there is a lot the ressers can do. they are my favorite faction and I have a very nice record with them. Beyond that there are as I addressed some fundamental base issues that hamper the crews that wear the green which I addressed above. Not saying you can't win with them, I have actually won more with them than I've lost, but I stand by a lot has to go right especially in the initiative phases and your order of operations has to be spot on in the turn.

I think that is true of any faction. All factions have issues. With Guild it's speed. Arcanists I find it's hitting power a lot of the time, (though speed and survivabilty of their Masters can be an issue too with some builds).

This is why I like Rezers though, I do well with all the Masters. And I definitely find that my play is rewarded. If I play well I can really juggernaut crews, if I mess up I pay hard. One thing I do find is they are very reliable. They generally take weak damage from most hits, Lure generally go off. I only summon if I have the card in hand, so it's a reliable summon. Against Minions Seamus will almost always hit and most of the time do 5 Dg, due to the fact he is fast and I can therefore move and focus. Masters all have a decent Ca so their spells normally hit when I need them to.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Ratty

[edonil]

Speaking as a newer Rezzer player, could you go into some of what you're doing Ratty? Because I've tried running Seamus, with and without Spirits or his Avatar, and I just can't seem to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. It makes me sad, because I really enjoy Seamus, I think he's probably my favorite Master after Rasputina (who I also can't get to click, but neither here nor there). If you could recommend some of those tempos for people to try out, that'd be awesome, because it is quite possible that we're missing something.