Okay, everyone lie down on the floor and keep calm!

[JisaacT]

Great points brought up in this thread. What really gets to me though is that the specific scemes for the ressurs is pretty difficult. Carrying corpse counters and not using them is difficult in and of itself unless you are seamus or kirai who dont use many as a master. For seamus though he can use minions that still need cc's. The other ressur specific is to have more models on the board than you startd with which i find difficult no matter who i play. Lastly seamus' specific strat is very difficult because lets face it...the copy cat killer totem is just not very effective.

[Requirement]

At the very least, I have to appreciate having a good block of text to read, Sandwich. I also like having a well-thought-out critique of what's going on. Thanks for contributing to a (quite long, drawn out, and seemingly neverending) conversation.

[Pierowmaniac]

Lastly seamus' specific strat is very difficult because lets face it...the copy cat killer totem is just not very effective.

Yeah good point. Does anyone actually try to do the Seamus Strategy I know I've never bothered.

[JisaacT]

It makes me sad because i got the little guy for the fluff but i have never actually used him on the feild

[Omenbringer]

I'm still locked in the dungeon with 5 minutes a day for fresh air and exercise. Bowen doesn't really 'work' as much as he 'gloms on' so he's pretty much always around.

So Nerdelemental has the 0: Link (Keltheos) ability?

---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

It makes me sad because i got the little guy for the fluff but i have never actually used him on the feild

Love him, he helped Seamus butcher a number of models by constantly trading places with him.

Back on topic (or should I say to the original off topic)

Having played in a few competitive events, I think the biggest problem with the Ressers (once again in competitive play only, think they are fine in casual play environments) is the speed at which they develop.

During our last competitive event (fixed master 30 SS scraps with 15 SS "side board", summoned models not included) the average game length was 4 turns (with 1 hour 15 minutes rounds). My Seamus crew had a very difficult time getting everything going, especially against the crews that were either just plain faster (Lilith and the Terror Tots), that could strike deeper and harder (Lucius with the Austringers) or didn't produce a lot of corpse counters (Hoffman with his construct buddies).

When your faction is really geared toward attrition style warfare each unplayed round puts you at a significant disadvantage.

[Sandwich]

At the very least, I have to appreciate having a good block of text to read, Sandwich. I also like having a well-thought-out critique of what's going on. Thanks for contributing to a (quite long, drawn out, and seemingly neverending) conversation.

I do my best to nerdout sometimes. ;D

Yeah good point. Does anyone actually try to do the Seamus Strategy I know I've never bothered.

I've tried to leave Corpse Counters around the map.

It's really hard.

Really really hard.

And it works directly against the basic makeup of the faction.

So...

So Nerdelemental has the 0: Link (Keltheos) ability?

---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

Love him, he helped Seamus butcher a number of models by constantly trading places with him.

Back on topic (or should I say to the original off topic)

Having played in a few competitive events, I think the biggest problem with the Ressers (once again in competitive play only, think they are fine in casual play environments) is the speed at which they develop.

During our last competitive event (fixed master 30 SS scraps with 15 SS "side board", summoned models not included) the average game length was 4 turns (with 1 hour 15 minutes rounds). My Seamus crew had a very difficult time getting everything going, especially against the crews that were either just plain faster (Lilith and the Terror Tots), that could strike deeper and harder (Lucius with the Austringers) or didn't produce a lot of corpse counters (Hoffman with his construct buddies).

When your faction is really geared toward attrition style warfare each unplayed round puts you at a significant disadvantage.

I think you're right, and I'm also kind of afraid of Attrition.

Because it takes a masterful balance of buildup versus payoff.

If there's too much buildup (Like right now) the faction is ineffective versus the opponent,

If there's too much payoff, the faction sucks early and utterly destroys late.

I fully believe that if Wyrd supports my(And a few other people) opinion(s), they'll do a great job at subtly bumping the faction up to par, because right now the Imbalance (That I perceive) is small enough where you CAN win, but big enough where there's often a lot of frustration in most games.

[SpiralngCadavr]

We're listening. We're taking notes. We're even fighting among ourselves in our super-secret Dev caves regarding issues brought up by you all or even some we've found ourselves.

In summary: keep talking. Feel free to criticize us or the game. We can handle it and we're listening.

This is great to hear. Thank you for this clear articulation and invitation. This is the sort of candor that's won my loyalty to Wyrd.

[Toonook]

I don't think the schemes do ressers any favours either. We tend to be on the low end of the WP scale for steal relic, Our two faction specific schemes are almost laughable given how many enemies don't drop corpse counters, especially compared to how easy arcanists and neverborn have life. McMourning's is the only master specific scheme that I'd bother attempting as well.

I wholeheartedly endorse Sandwich's post, I think it's an amazing insight into what happened to us as a faction. However, I personally feel the scheme imbalance, and the ability to cheese your way out of your opponent scoring points is the biggest blight on the game at the moment. Of course, I must reinforce that this is the greatest tabletop game I have ever played and I love your work guys.

[Brandu]

I appologize if I'm off the mark on any facts as I am on break at work and do not have my books with me.

First off, I completely endorse Sandwich's earlier post. In fact I really wish he would expand upon it especially concerning Seamus.

I would further like to comment on:

Did y'all get McMourning's and Seamus SS caches reversed? Seamus' low cache makes me feel as if I have to cut myself short on SS in order to have enough to survive. This combined with a very high CC on raising Belles makes playing seamus difficult.

Molly: Not only agree with the Big S, but have to say that she (To me, at this time) really doesn't bring a lot to her supposed main Master.

Guild Autopsy: Do I really need to comment here?

Please, PLEASE, re-look at the Ressers and how they fit with their Minions.

[Sybaris]

Personally, i find Wyrd's response rather good with revisions and FAQ. With the 1.5 rulebook coming out soon, we'll have a new basis from which new players can learn and that will lead (hopefully) to a more "final" set of rules.

While i do admit being a tad postal about Nekima's shortcomings (to the point i've opened an house rule w.i.p. thread) , they have reassured me a lot with the FAQ, saying that the model will, in time, be looked after (as a side note, i am more than happy that it is the same case for Mr. Hamelin).

So all in all, developping a game takes time, and what matters to me is to know that issues are being discussed and attempts at solutions will be made.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Sybaris

[Q'iq'el]

I find Sandwych's argument biased. I don't believe there is any serious flaws in Rezzers design, when compared to other factions and I think the argument is deliberately exaggerated to make it seem so.

For example, Colette's crew is just a closed as Kirai's. While other masters, even from other factions, can hire Performers, there's very little reason to do so and it is almost unheard of (outside of experimental builds). Coryphée being the only model really useful to Arcanists in general are exactly like Shikome in that their relative power drops once they leave Showgirls' crew (no Mannequins, no Doves, no teleportation tricks). Neverborn probably have the most use for the new master's minions, with both Copellius and Stitched useful for 3 out of 4 masters, but then there are Outcasts who have no use at all for Hamelin Minions and are even worse off than Rezzers in this aspect.

The same goes for Molly - she may be suboptimal or very hard to use, but she is viable choice for all the Book 1 masters. Even Neverborn Henchman doesn't mesh up with all the Book 1 masters, not to mention obviously restricted Outcast choices.

Another problem is mixing up own tastes and ideology with the pragmatic undertone of Malifaux fluff. There is no such thing as faction-purity in Malifaux. In fluff everybody works with everybody and you fight side by side with your worst enemies should a bigger threat appear, but for some reason the models useable by other factions are worth "less" for Rezzers?!? How? How is the fact that a model drops more scrap counters an insult, when it is a construct? How is Carrion Effigy fluff making it a Neverborn model?

A lot of the analysis of relative model power ignores obvious synergies or skips them in an somewhat perplexing way. Rafkin is a good example of this - obviously it is not his abilities but the way he multiplies Corpse Counters which serves the faction the most (isn't one of the chief complaints the lack of Corpse Counter-dropping opponents?!). In case you haven't noticed, with Rafkin Mindless Zombies are useful (mostly as walking Corpse Counters, with lack of control being the only drawback) for all 3 Book 1 masters and Molly, perhaps time to buy some?

I don't think the appearance of Kirai did anything wrong to Rezzers. I also disagree that the minions are weaker - on the contrary, for their costs the stats and abilities are at least very decent if not plain out superior to many other choices. Sure, there's nothing comparable to Twins and their incredible Synergy, but there are no models coming at that price tag either. And when you take ~14SS of Rezzer models, there are tools to deal with such an opponent too, just the approach would be different.

In other words, I don't think the comparisons with other factions (as they are being made here) go deep enough. I don't think they are relevant either. The game is by design asymmetric, both in faction design and gameplay, so minion for minion comparison focuses on the wrong aspect of the problem - it creates an illusion of noticeable imbalance where there's little to none.

What I'd rather focus on is victory conditions. This is the area where Rezzers may actually underperform and it is an entirely internal problem for the faction which is often summed up as lack of mobility. IMO it is not the lack of mobility which is the problem, but too much stress put on mobility in the Victory Conditions. All the factions would gain on relative balance, if mobility was knocked down a notch.

Rules Manual has brought a very large selection of Strategies and schemes. We can generally divide them into three categories:

1. Mobility

2. Combat superiority

3. Territory grab and defense

I feel Rules Manual has pushed the Strategies heavily into the first category. It wasn't the case in the Book 1, where both the mobility gap was lower and the lower number of Strategies ensured the third category would pop up more often.

Other than Claim Jump there really is no strategy in the 3rd category (currently) and while pure combat should give some advantage to the Undead, the Slaughter's scoring system is detrimental to crews that re-summon models and use them as cannon fodder.

Plant Evidence and Line in the sand are the great example of Strategies that seem to be Territory/defense related and end up being pure Mobility fests. Try to play Plant Evidence so that the opponent doesn't need to be in melee to block the interact action, but merely in the same table quarter and within LoS. It forces the evidence-planter (so to speak) to deal with the defenders first and turns the game around.

If the Strategies and Schemes were to be more evenly spread among these three types of missions, I feel Rezzers would win more games. There's a reason why Horrors are such a hype with the faction right now.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Gruesome]

In case you haven't noticed' date=' with Rafkin Mindless Zombies are useful (mostly as walking Corpse Counters, with lack of control being the only drawback) for all 3 Book 1 masters and Molly, perhaps time to buy some?[/quote']

Our experiences differ.

Pretty burnt out on all the Theory-faux lately. Seems like all sorts of people have all sorts of things figured out and that's great. I hope to hear great battle reports with all sorts of Molly and Rafkin stories over the coming months. (As well as maybe some GenCon results)

[Brandu]

I find Sandwych's argument biased. I don't believe there is any serious flaws in Rezzers design' date=' when compared to other factions and I think the argument is deliberately exaggerated to make it seem so.[/quote']

Please see Nerdelemental's original posting, last pararaph.

I've been playing Seamus since book one and I find almost all of his comments to be spot on. We're in totally different portions of the U.S. so it's not a regional thing either. Seamus' scheme is very difficult to pull off with CCK, and Nico's Scheme is counter intuitive.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Brandu

[Q'iq'el]

Just wondering, if she is suboptimal and hard to use, how is she a viable choice?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm actually wondering at your meaning.

In that you can take her and win the game if you are the better player and she will still be useful, even if not as useful as another model would be in her place. This is entirely different to taking Collodi with Lilith for example, where the entire mix will be counterproductive and one part of the crew will be getting in way of the other and each of the leaders would perform better without the other. Not to mention situations where the rules straight out bar you from taking a Henchman, even though it is the same faction.

And by the way, the very point I'm making is that the problem is with victory conditions not matching the strengths of the faction. That doesn't in any way conflict with the fact that the difference in power-level of minions is being exaggerated. This is not a problem one solves by re-designing the Resurrectionist faction, or by adding new models, but by changing Strategies and Schemes so that they are more clearly distributed among the three categories I've listed - de-emphasise mobility and increase the importance of territory control in at least 1/3rd of the Strategies and Schemes.

And I think I know why the designers went for mobility - it makes for more dynamic and dramatic games. Too bad there is a faction designed for something else and it should have a fair share of objectives it is good at.

[Brandu]

We'll just need to agree to disagree is all.

Thank you for your comments.

[Sandwich]

I find Sandwych's argument biased. I don't believe there is any serious flaws in Rezzers design, when compared to other factions and I think the argument is deliberately exaggerated to make it seem so.

For example, Colette's crew is just a closed as Kirai's. While other masters, even from other factions, can hire Performers, there's very little reason to do so and it is almost unheard of (outside of experimental builds). Coryphée being the only model really useful to Arcanists in general are exactly like Shikome in that their relative power drops once they leave Showgirls' crew (no Mannequins, no Doves, no teleportation tricks). Neverborn probably have the most use for the new master's minions, with both Copellius and Stitched useful for 3 out of 4 masters, but then there are Outcasts who have no use at all for Hamelin Minions and are even worse off than Rezzers in this aspect.

The same goes for Molly - she may be suboptimal or very hard to use, but she is viable choice for all the Book 1 masters. Even Neverborn Henchman doesn't mesh up with all the Book 1 masters, not to mention obviously restricted Outcast choices.

Another problem is mixing up own tastes and ideology with the pragmatic undertone of Malifaux fluff. There is no such thing as faction-purity in Malifaux. In fluff everybody works with everybody and you fight side by side with your worst enemies should a bigger threat appear, but for some reason the models useable by other factions are worth "less" for Rezzers?!? How? How is the fact that a model drops more scrap counters an insult, when it is a construct? How is Carrion Effigy fluff making it a Neverborn model?

A lot of the analysis of relative model power ignores obvious synergies or skips them in an somewhat perplexing way. Rafkin is a good example of this - obviously it is not his abilities but the way he multiplies Corpse Counters which serves the faction the most (isn't one of the chief complaints the lack of Corpse Counter-dropping opponents?!). In case you haven't noticed, with Rafkin Mindless Zombies are useful (mostly as walking Corpse Counters, with lack of control being the only drawback) for all 3 Book 1 masters and Molly, perhaps time to buy some?

I don't think the appearance of Kirai did anything wrong to Rezzers. I also disagree that the minions are weaker - on the contrary, for their costs the stats and abilities are at least very decent if not plain out superior to many other choices. Sure, there's nothing comparable to Twins and their incredible Synergy, but there are no models coming at that price tag either. And when you take ~14SS of Rezzer models, there are tools to deal with such an opponent too, just the approach would be different.

In other words, I don't think the comparisons with other factions (as they are being made here) go deep enough. I don't think they are relevant either. The game is by design asymmetric, both in faction design and gameplay, so minion for minion comparison focuses on the wrong aspect of the problem - it creates an illusion of noticeable imbalance where there's little to none.

What I'd rather focus on is victory conditions. This is the area where Rezzers may actually underperform and it is an entirely internal problem for the faction which is often summed up as lack of mobility. IMO it is not the lack of mobility which is the problem, but too much stress put on mobility in the Victory Conditions. All the factions would gain on relative balance, if mobility was knocked down a notch.

Rules Manual has brought a very large selection of Strategies and schemes. We can generally divide them into three categories:

1. Mobility

2. Combat superiority

3. Territory grab and defense

I feel Rules Manual has pushed the Strategies heavily into the first category. It wasn't the case in the Book 1, where both the mobility gap was lower and the lower number of Strategies ensured the third category would pop up more often.

Other than Claim Jump there really is no strategy in the 3rd category (currently) and while pure combat should give some advantage to the Undead, the Slaughter's scoring system is detrimental to crews that re-summon models and use them as cannon fodder.

Plant Evidence and Line in the sand are the great example of Strategies that seem to be Territory/defense related and end up being pure Mobility fests. Try to play Plant Evidence so that the opponent doesn't need to be in melee to block the interact action, but merely in the same table quarter and within LoS. It forces the evidence-planter (so to speak) to deal with the defenders first and turns the game around.

If the Strategies and Schemes were to be more evenly spread among these three types of missions, I feel Rezzers would win more games. There's a reason why Horrors are such a hype with the faction right now.

My argument isn't really biased, there isn't much room for a bias to be present.

And you're mostly right about Colette's crew being pretty closed off from the rest of the faction.

The problem with your argument is that Colette's 'crew' is comprised of

Colette

Doves

Cassandra

Coryphee / Duet

Performer / Mannequin

And telling me that I intentionally understate a model to bring home a point and then say that the Coryphee are anything less than auto-include in almost any strategy or scheme is very hypocritical.

Removing Colette and her doves from that mix, that's 3 models out of 12.

Moving over to the Resurrectionists,

Kirai's 'crew comprises of

Kirai

Ikiryo

Lost Love

Datsue-Ba

Gaki

Onryo

Seishin

Shikome

Removing Kirai and her Totem, that's 6 out of 12.

That is half of the models designed for our Faction that work with one master.

None of those models have usability outside of Kirai, except for the Onryo and that's only for combat oriented games, and feel free to take any of those spirits with any of the other three Masters and tell me how well that goes in a competitive game.

So right there, we can cut out any idea of "Strategy / Schemes are the imbalance"

Where all other factions got something around 8 models for every master, we got 6.

Out of that 6, we have 3 that people even consider using,

Those three are Molly, the Night Terror, and the Dead Rider, hell I'll even throw in the Rogue Necromancy.

So in summation of that, we got 4 models that can be used by the rest of the faction.

I don't think there's some sleeper OP strategy to the Guild Autopsy or the Necrotic Machine, either.

[Gruesome]

Was playing a game just tonight wherein I took Rafkin again as I really want him to work.

Went back to Nicodem because I had treasure hunt and my son had claim jump.

I felt that by taking "stake a claim" close to his claim jump and "hold out" that I'd be able to move my slow crew to the claim jump halfway up the board (He put it to one edge) and hopefully overwhelm him with hordes.

I also had Night Terrors to hopefully snag the treasure super-fast and get it to my deployment zone then send them after anything trying to flank me to ruin my holdout. (I figured he could not spare too much muscle for the flank or my main bubble would blow him off of his claim jump)

So, plan (Strat/Schemes/Models) in place, we started. Rafkin did what he seems to do better than any other model I have, which is kill 3 dogs. (I do not care what anyone else says about killing your own models, IMO, its automatic now to have Nicodem "Arise" 3 MZ turn one so that he can use "bolster" the rest of the game until such a time as he chooses to manifest)

With the MZ's created, then subsequently turned into a Flesh Construct, leaving remaining MZ for protection or eventual "conversion" to another 30MM utility model, I moved out. Rafkin is now sitting on 5 Body Parts and I am feeling like this might be his moment to shine.

Then things start happening and he is not close enough to do things and I do not have the grossly high crow-card he needs to make mindless zombies and he just generally has to burn his body parts to get fast to even become involved, all the while skirting danger with the knowledge that one hard hitter can take him out in an activation.

Whats funny is that despite him not being useful this game (So far, we had to continue tomorrow) I actually *DID* find what I hope is a use for the Carrion Effigy I am still struggling with.

I knew he had claim jump and HOPED he would put the objective near something I could hide behind and sure enough he did. So now, with his peacekeeper parked and more constructs on their way, I have a carrion effigy ready to spoil their day and STRIP their immune to influence so that a newly manifested Nicodem can paralyze them and then start dropping decay bombs and Punk zombies on their heads.

... Unless he reads this post I guess... :Sad_Puppet1:

Anyway, the game is not over, but so far, once again, Rafkin is feeling dead-weight'ish. He is slow and vulnerable. Maybe he will pull off something clutch by granting my entire crew hard to kill or something, but we'll see.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Gruesome

[Cornelious1424]

I agree with your points on Kirai and her intended minions 100%, Sandwich. I don't think I've used HER spirits once, in any other Resser crew. For 5ss Nico, McM and Seamus can have a PZ that is better in combat than an Onryo and drops a CC...why would I take an Onryo with any of them. Also, 2 of the 3 masters have abilities that requires the Undead characteristic to be effective. The spirits in book 2 were obviously designed to work SPECIFICALLY with Kirai and not with the rest of the faction. To make this point all the more clear, Kirai her self has a limitation on the models without spirit she can take. It just seems that as a faction we are divided, playing 2 factions in one.

[Sandwich]

Was playing a game just tonight wherein I took Rafkin again as I really want him to work.

Went back to Nicodem because I had treasure hunt and my son had claim jump.

I felt that by taking "stake a claim" close to his claim jump and "hold out" that I'd be able to move my slow crew to the claim jump halfway up the board (He put it to one edge) and hopefully overwhelm him with hordes.

I also had Night Terrors to hopefully snag the treasure super-fast and get it to my deployment zone then send them after anything trying to flank me to ruin my holdout. (I figured he could not spare too much muscle for the flank or my main bubble would blow him off of his claim jump)

So, plan (Strat/Schemes/Models) in place, we started. Rafkin did what he seems to do better than any other model I have, which is kill 3 dogs. (I do not care what anyone else says about killing your own models, IMO, its automatic now to have Nicodem "Arise" 3 MZ turn one so that he can use "bolster" the rest of the game until such a time as he chooses to manifest)

With the MZ's created, then subsequently turned into a Flesh Construct, leaving remaining MZ for protection or eventual "conversion" to another 30MM utility model, I moved out. Rafkin is now sitting on 5 Body Parts and I am feeling like this might be his moment to shine.

Then things start happening and he is not close enough to do things and I do not have the grossly high crow-card he needs to make mindless zombies and he just generally has to burn his body parts to get fast to even become involved, all the while skirting danger with the knowledge that one hard hitter can take him out in an activation.

Whats funny is that despite him not being useful this game (So far, we had to continue tomorrow) I actually *DID* find what I hope is a use for the Carrion Effigy I am still struggling with.

I knew he had claim jump and HOPED he would put the objective near something I could hide behind and sure enough he did. So now, with his peacekeeper parked and more constructs on their way, I have a carrion effigy ready to spoil their day and STRIP their immune to influence so that a newly manifested Nicodem can paralyze them and then start dropping decay bombs and Punk zombies on their heads.

... Unless he reads this post I guess... :Sad_Puppet1:

Anyway, the game is not over, but so far, once again, Rafkin is feeling dead-weight'ish. He is slow and vulnerable. Maybe he will pull off something clutch by granting my entire crew hard to kill or something, but we'll see.

At least keep me updated with the turnabout.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

I agree with your points on Kirai and her intended minions 100%, Sandwich. I don't think I've used HER spirits once, in any other Resser crew. For 5ss Nico, McM and Seamus can have a PZ that is better in combat than an Onryo and drops a CC...why would I take an Onryo with any of them. Also, 2 of the 3 masters have abilities that requires the Undead characteristic to be effective. The spirits in book 2 were obviously designed to work SPECIFICALLY with Kirai and not with the rest of the faction. To make this point all the more clear, Kirai her self has a limitation on the models without spirit she can take. It just seems that as a faction we are divided, playing 2 factions in one.

Onryo ignore armor and can strip Wp immunities and bonuses, making Terror Schemes and Belle spam lists more effective.

[Gruesome]

At least keep me updated with the turnabout.

Nothing went as I would have liked, but I won.

He made a mistake in activation order on a particular turn and I was able to burn through all my soulstones keeping LadyJ paralyzed for 3 out of the last 4 turns of the game while my Night terrors made away with the treasure.

A surprise MVP in the battle was...

Carrion Effigy!

And not because of his aura or ability to let others heal from corpse counters. It was actually his RANGED WEAPON!

Two death marshals and a brutal effigy were barreling down on a Nicodem that was busy spending most of his actions keeping LadyJ and Judge paralyzed and the effigy red jokered the damage flip on a death marshal, giving blast template as well as additional damage flip. One death marshall went down and he pecked away at the second a bit more, then the non-treasure carrying Night terrors were able to swoop in and tangle them up for the remainder of the game. Judge did get activated in a round and took out carrion, but his killing the marshall and applying wounds to the other models helped a lot.

6th turn was an automatic manifestation. I spent two different casts re-paralyzing LadyJ, dropped two punk zombies on her head then moved Nico and Rafkin to his claim jump to prevent him scoring anything from it.

Final score was 6-0 from holdout + 4 for my strat. Could not get near the stake a claim with anything that would live.

I gotta say, I never paid much attention to the ranged weapon on effigy before, but its not terrible.

Rafkin's grand contribution to the game was making two mindless zombies(by using a crow that I would rather I had next turn) and contesting the claim jump.

I am not sure what I would want changed about Rafkin. I am still hoping that I just keep playing him poorly, but his healing range is 2 inches and his granting of hard to kill is 4 inches, so he has to be in "gonna die" range of anything to make use of those. (Similar to carrion effigy in that respect, but effigy is only 4 points and has a better attack range)

I sincerely hope that someone much better than me illustrates via gameplay experience how he is good(Not interested in theory), because I have yet to see him do anything well other than kill my 3 dogs to start the game. It "feels" like he should be good.

I have not had that experience yet though.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Gruesome

[Sandwich]

Totally forgot I was supposed to do everything I could to keep this thread alive.

Going to play Rafkin a lot, and then Crooligans a lot more.

And then do everything in my power to make them work as best as possible,

And then post up everything I've learned.

And yes this thread is designed specifically to breathe life into a very dead horse.

Love me anyway? <33

[Justin]

I say we settle this with some sort of worldwide competition. <.<

[Soundwave]

I say we settle this with some sort of worldwide competition. <.<

+1

[Ratty]

BTW

I disagree with the fact that none of the Book 2 spirits bring anything to the other Rezers.

• Datsu-ba is excelent as a force multiplier with both Nicodem and McMourning. There is nothing wrong with a model that can kill multiple dogs to give corpse counters and at the same time create Gaki and Onryo on top. I've seen her used multiple times successfully in the last month to do just this.
  
• Shikome are still excelent blitz models for Rezers, the only issue being they don't drop corpse counters, but that is hardly an issue with either Seamus (Who I always find has more than enough) or McMourning (who can generate them by killing models).
  
• Onryo as you have said work well with Seamus.
  
• Night Terrors though Spirits are tough, fast and have a useful -2 Wp aura.
  

That leaves

• Ikiryo (which is really part of the Master in the same way LCB is).
  
• Lost Love (Master specific Totems appear in every faction and can't be used by anyone else)
  
• Seishin (Master specific)
  
• Gaki (which I agree don't do an awful lot for other Masters.. UNLESS ofc you are getting them free from Datsu-ba, which you could definitely argue makes them a valid multi-master minion).
  

Also on the Subject of Rafkin. He's amazingly good as a force multiplier. Read carefully how his abilities work and then look at Canine Remains.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Ratty

[mythicFOX]

+1 to what Ratty just said. Shikome and Night Terrors are great for most of the faction.

Could I put in a plea for a decent significant Arcanist model <6ss, please?

Seriously we're the only faction that doesn't have a great 3ss and/or 4ss significant model. I want my; Madness, Witchling, Belle, Terror Tot, Watcher, or Night Terror.

Please?

Edited June 19, 2012 by mythicFOX