Question on Summoning Rare models

[ravenborne]

Forgive me if this is posted somewhere. What exactly happens if a model tires to cast a spell that summons a model and exceeds its rare value? Does the spell fail or does the spell succeed but the model just does not get summoned?

Example Nicodem summons a rogue necromancy with one on the table. Does he draw 4 cards?

Example ​Levi summons entropic transformation targetting a corpse counter, with 2 waifs on the table. Does he take 3 wounds?

[Gollum528]

I don't know if this if the official rule but the way we always played it is that you one of the models already table and summon the new one.

[edonil]

You aren't allowed to attempt the summon.

---------- Post added at 12:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------

At least, I think that's how it goes. It's that or the spell fails, I forget which.

[NinjaBreadMen]

I've read before that if a model is summoned onto the bored which cannot exist (Such as Seishin who are rare 5, but I *think* Kirai doesn't get a choice in their appearance) the new model doesn't get placed. You don't remove the exisiting model to place the new one.

This next bit's purely speculation though:

I don't know Nico enough to say about his drawing cards.

Levi however, would be able to cast his spell as he could be choosing to make an SpA and not a waif. As the wounds are spent in order to cast the spell he would indeed suffer wounds, and then choose to summon a waif, who wouldn't be placed. I think he would also get his 'draw a card' trigger as the spell was succesfully cast, it just didn't do anything.

Like I say though, that's all just my interpritation.

*added*

By chance another thread had the rules for Nico's spell:

(1) Reanimator.

Discard a number of corpse counters with 6" equal to the base size on one non-spirt, non-unique undead model. Summon that model. Draw one card for each corpse counter discarded.

As the order in the spell states the model must be summoned, then you draw cards, if you try to summon a rare miniature who can't be placed, you would discard the appropriate number of counters, but wouldn't get any benefit from drawing cards, as the spell fizzles after the model isn't summoned.

Edited May 25, 2012 by NinjaBreadMen
Additional content

[nilus]

The spell fails, you can not exceed the rarity of a model

[Gollum528]

Does the same thing apply to unique models?? For example, can Zoraida summon a new vodoo doll if one is already on the table??

[nilus]

Does the same thing apply to unique models?? For example, can Zoraida summon a new vodoo doll if one is already on the table??

Zoriada is a special case because her ability clearly states you sac any other voodo dolls when you summon one

(2) Create Voodoo Doll: Summon 1 Voodoo Doll Totem.

Immediately sacrifice any other Voodoo Doll Totems

connected to this model.

[Cadilon]

So this raises an interesting gameplay/sportsmanship question. I think in friendly games, of course you tell your opponent that they can't summon another of that model. But what about tournaments when there are stakes on the line? Is it bad form to remain silent until after the cast and then inform them it failed and they lost that AP?

[Fastenhate]

So this raises an interesting gameplay/sportsmanship question. I think in friendly games, of course you tell your opponent that they can't summon another of that model. But what about tournaments when there are stakes on the line? Is it bad form to remain silent until after the cast and then inform them it failed and they lost that AP?

I always struggle with this issue. For example, when an opponent targets a model with immune to influence with a WP attack.

[Aramoro]

I always struggle with this issue. For example, when an opponent targets a model with immune to influence with a WP attack.

I would always say in these cases. Mainly because if I win I want to win because I had the best tactics etc, not because my opponent wasn't familiar enough with my crew or a detail of the rules. Abusing the rules to your advantage is one thing, letting your opponent do something you know is against the rules and only after they do it bringing up the fact it doesn't work and they lose their AP. That's a cheap way to win.

[Dreygan]

i havent played in anything where it mattered with Malifaux but with Magic, they do what they are going to do, i tell them that it doesnt work. and if they want to take it back and declare something different then generally thats fine but if they keep it as what they declared then i let them do that too.

On the other side of that, if i mess up and do the same type of thing i usually stick myself with the correct way, cause losing that action or whatever is a lot more memorable and helps to keep you more aware of what your doing.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Dreygan

[Leggo]

So this raises an interesting gameplay/sportsmanship question. I think in friendly games, of course you tell your opponent that they can't summon another of that model. But what about tournaments when there are stakes on the line? Is it bad form to remain silent until after the cast and then inform them it failed and they lost that AP?

I always struggle with this issue. For example, when an opponent targets a model with immune to influence with a WP attack.

I would consider these to be two different things. The first is a player not knowing the rules, which in a tournament, you should at least be familiar with the core rules set. If you do not know how to play the game, and make a mistake, I have always found its one way to cement things, in my mind. If its a teaching game, then I would point out before hand, but once you are entering a tournament, then you are taking a step above learning the game, and mistakes should be punished, to a degree, without anyone being a douche.

The second though, I would inform a player, I had Immune to Influence. That is a model/s specific rule and it is quite hard, to memorise what abilities, all your models have, let alone, what your opponents may possibly have. I wouldn't state, "its Immune to Will Power duels," though, more "it has Immune to Influence," in a tournament, as again I2I is in the rules manual, and you should know what that implies. But I would always, having given a player a warning, its going to fail due to a rules interaction, allow them to change their mind, about spending the AP.

[Gruesome]

I have never been in a game of Malifaux where the tiny advantage gained by them losing an action would be worth how bad I felt for not letting them take it back.

I play to enjoy myself and a part of that is feeling like my opponent is doing the same.

Mind you, I state this simply as my view of it with my Malifaux "goals" involved, not as a "way it should be and if you are different, you are wrong".

Now, I know there is "a line" for me though. If I have some sort of defensive trigger that will really help me if they take some action, I do not sit there in a non-learning game and remind them of what will happen.

[marshimartian]

It's one thing, especially in friendly games, to allow them to take it back, but in competitive events, especially if you're playing against an experienced player, your opponent should know better and take care to ask about things like I2I BEFORE declaring an action.

That, and if it's a pivotal moment in the game, your opponents mistakes aren't your responsibility. Or for that matter, what happens when you play someone who doesn't return the favor?

---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

It's one thing, especially in friendly games, to allow them to take it back, but in competitive events, especially if you're playing against an experienced player, your opponent should know better and take care to ask about things like I2I BEFORE declaring an action.

That, and if it's a pivotal moment in the game, your opponents mistakes aren't your responsibility. Or for that matter, what happens when you play someone who doesn't return the favor?

[Mydnight]

The spell fails, you can not exceed the rarity of a model

Nilus has it. Since the spell would fail none of its costs would be triggered (So Nicodem wouldn't draw the cards and Levi wouldn't take the wounds). However the AP used to cast the spell would be spent as if you had failed to fulfill the casting cost if my memory is correct.

As for sportsmanship, certainly it's better to let your opponent know in a friendly game. At a tournament where the stakes are a bit higher you'll have to use your own judgement. I usually let my opponent complete the action since he might be scheming something I'm not (like sacrificing two shikome to summon a shikome with Kirai, for example). If he completes the action and I see no scheming, I politely inform him of the issue and go from there. Whatever your stance, politeness is the key :-)

[Gruesome]

Or for that matter, what happens when you play someone who doesn't return the favor?

I understand what you are saying, but expected reciprocation is not my criteria for being nice. :1_Happy_Puppet2:

[marshimartian]

I understand what you are saying, but expected reciprocation is not my criteria for being nice. :1_Happy_Puppet2:

While that may be true, games tend to work better when everyone follows the same rules. It's not so much about reciprocation as it is consistency.

Of course, this is totally theory-based, because in reality, I let must things slide save for the most critical moments in the game.

[Q'iq'el]

The issue of sportsmanship is a side-line problem which appears with almost every restriction that may cause the opponent to, so to speak, do himself in. My opinion on the subject is that it is nice to warn your opponent, but it is very improper to expect the warning. Especially if people dock opponent sportsmanship only on the basis that he didn't warn them about the rules.

Going back to the original question, this is another issue which is way more convoluted than it should be IMHO. Another area deserving a review and some re-thinking for the V2 rules, whenever we may get them.

As they are, Malifaux rules can have at least four distinct restrictions on the amount and kind of models you can field, not counting for the master-specific restrictions and most basic faction division. This can be confusing, so here we go:

1. Unique models are named characters that appear in the fluff. Because they are people with names, addresses and taxpayer ID, there never can be two of those in play on the same side (though Neverborn Dopplegangers are known to impersonate entire crews, so if you meet another crew with the same Unique models, you get to fight to the death to prove your characters are the real ones).

2. Rare models can show up in numbers, but there can never be more in play, than the limit. In Brawls the limit gets automatically doubled. If you cast the spell to summon a Rare model above the limit, the spell fizzles.

3. Special Forces models have one-per-crew restriction, which means never during the game you are allowed to summon or otherwise obtain models belonging to the different special force than the one you've already have on the table. I'd assume any summoning spell trying to summon a model from another special force would also fizzle.

4. Special Forces, when hired without their specific Henchman, have up to 2 hiring quota (with exception of Ramos and Zoraida crews IIRC). This is tricky, because you actually can summon above that number once the game starts (see page 10; Page 72 have more restrictive wording, but page 72 contains rules for Hiring stage of the game and doesn't apply to summoning).

It is also worth remembering those restrictions can be in play at the same time - for example Rogue Necromancy is both Rare & Special Forces which means there may exist situations where you cannot summon any of those, even though there's none on the table (for example, when you bring Carrion Effigy and it is still in play), and other situations where you can have up to their Rare limit in play (no other Special Forces in play). It also means you may summon above the Special Forces hiring quota, but you cannot summon above Rare limit.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[CRC]

3. Special Forces models have one-per-crew restriction' date= which means never during the game you are allowed to summon or otherwise obtain models belonging to the different special force than the one you've already have on the table. I'd assume any summoning spell trying to summon a model from another special force would also fizzle.

I know it's been ruled before that you can summon a second Special Force into play. Specifically Avatar Ramos can hire an Arcane Effigy and summon a Large Steampunk Arachnid later.

I don't know if the ruling changed, but I saw it here:

Zoraida and 2 Special Forces

[Ausplosions]

correct, Nico could have Von Schill and summon a Rogue Necromancy.

[Keltheos]

Here's a couple preview items from the FAQ...wait, does that mean it will be here soon?!?!

Q:What happens when a model attempts something that it couldn’t do, like cast a Spell to create an additional Rare model when my Crew’s maximum number of that model are in play, or casts a borrowed Spell that requires a Weapon/Ability my model doesn’t have?

A:You cannot attempt the Action. If the Action would not work, reset back to before the Action began. If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play.

and, regarding Summoning different Special Forces

Q:Can Zoraida summon a Wicked Doll if you have a model from another Special Force in play?

A:The limit of only models from one Special Force and the limit on the number of Special Forces models in your crew only apply during hiring. So yes, you can summon a Wicked Doll if you have a Gunsmith in play.

[Dessicated]

Good that there was a ruling on it... Since in the rules manual it only says that you cant Hire moer than the specified Rare number. Summoning is not hiring.