BISHOP - The Best Minion in the Game(?)

[Rathnard]

Okay, before you get your lynching hats on I know - Bishop is not an amazing minion. In fact he's commonly considered one of the worst. He's overcosted for what he does and there are any number of models that can do any number of things better than Bishop can manage, for cheaper.

My problem, however, is that I love underdogs.

So I've now set myself a challenge - take Bishop in my crews as often as possible, learn how to best use him and prove that he's not the utter waste of SS that so many of us assume. I'll be posting my experiences here, starting with my first two games using him. One with Zoraida, and another with the Viks.

Game 1

25SS - a three way game with my Zoraida crew against Von Schill and Nicodem. My own Strategy was Destroy Evidence, so my crew consisted of;

Zoraida

Bishop 11

2x Silurid 10

Wicked Doll 3

For my schemes I picked Steal Relic and Frame for Murder on Bishop. I decided on the latter because I figured if Bishop was going to die, I could at least try and get some VPs out of it.

I won't go into details about the overall game (short story - Silurid and Zoraida are awesome for mobility strategies), and instead focus on what Bishop did.

Basically, I deployed Bishop along side a Wicked Doll, heading for Von Schills table corner and the Destroy Evidence Marker within a cave on that side. On turn 1, The Wicked Doll started with a strike on Bishop, missing but triggering Leap, pushing him 4". Bishop then activated, Cage Fightered for +2Df and Wk/Quick Charged 4+7" forward. Nobody tried killing him at this point.

Near the end of turn 2, Bishop Wk/Quick Charged another 11" toward Von Schill (who was well out of charge range), finishing within about 3" of the Destroy Evidence Marker. Von Schill retaliated with two shots, missing once and dealing 3 damage.

Turn 3, Von Schill companions a Specialist, shoots Bishop twice and kills him (I cheated down to make sure he died to Von Schill and not the specialist, netting me my Frame For Murder Scheme).

What I learn't

Don't listen to the nay-sayers, Bishop is a mobile SoB. Leap Away can give you an easy 4" push from any model who can spare a melee strike, otherwise the 1 action charge allows for a standard 11" movement. Thinking about it, I could have even thrown the Wicked doll 4" forward with a Toss Trigger (Wicked doll heals the wound with a (0) action), before (1) charging to the Wicked doll (cheating to miss) and Wking another 4". And all of this is made quite easy with his (0) Adaptive Fighter for Masks

If I had initative in turn 3 Bishop would have walked to and interacted with the destroy evidence marker within the cave, then in later turns gone for Von Schill's throat in the hopes of getting Bishop Killed for Frame for Murder. As it turns out, Bishop died early, but still enabled me to complete Frame for Murder so it wasn't all bad. I think if I'd tried, I could have kept him alive through Von Schill's and the Specialist's activations. But it may have taken some cheating with high cards, I was pretty confident that Zoraida was going to get that Destroy Evidence anyway and the opportunity for getting my Frame for Murder scheme was too good to pass up.

Game 2

35SS - Viktorias (me) vs Nicodem (Ian)

My crew;

Viks

Student of Conflict 3

Sue 7

Bishop 10

2x Ronin 10

Ian's Crew;

Nicodem

2x Vultures 4

2x Necropunks 6

3x Canine Remains 6

Killjoy 11

Rotten Belle 4

My Strategy was Claim Jump, his was Destroy Evidence. In this game, the Necropunks pushed forward to try and take the Destroy Evidence counter and I responded with Bishop. After (0) Adapting for Rams, Bishop's 11" Wk plus Cg was enough to get him into melee with a Necropunk sitting on the Destroy Evidence, which he killed in two strikes (critical strike took him to 1 wound from the charge) and then tossed the body away in case he pulled out Killjoy with slow to die (he didn't).

Turn 2 started with a Punk Zombie (summoned from the Necropunk corpse) in melee with Bishop, so with Initative he (0) Adapted for Masks, used Melee Expert to Strike and Toss the Punk Zombie away, Charged the remaining Necropunk (on one wound, courtesy of Sue) and killed and tossed him too.

The game ended a short time later, after the Viks Turbocharged across the table into Nicodem and Red Jokered the poor guy.

What I learnt

I was really hoping that Ian was going to pull out Killjoy from one of the Necropunks for a Killjoy vs Bishop Showdown, but he refrained from that, presumably in the hopes of smashing apart the Viks (a smart move, IMO).

Adaptive fighting for Rams gives Bishop some very nice damage output if he wants it. Admittedly he was only beating up Necropunks this game, but the chance for three high Cb strikes dealing at least 2/3/5 damage is pretty respectable. Adaptive Fighting for Masks was still great though - Leap and Toss have quickly become my favorite triggers for Bishop. Thinking back about it, if I'd (1) charged the Punk Zombie after Tossing him from my melee expert, I could have easily Tossed him again and either made another charge on the Punk Zombie OR Charged Nicodem, who would have been close enough to engage at that point. Instead I stuck with the plan, and Bishop held back to protect the Destroy evidence counter, which I think was ultimately the right decision.

While I did use Cage fighter once in game 1, I've mostly stuck with using Adaptive Fighter to get the triggers I want (especially the Mask triggers). I've also yet to have the AP spare for Study opponent, so that's another spell I need to try out.

If nothing else, I'm really enjoying Bishop's playstyle. With his high stats and ability to leap and toss models around, he really does feel like a cage fighter. He's difficult to pin down and very flexible in how he can deal with other models. I'm actually really looking forward to using him again, so you can expect another update soon.

[Bruglyother]

I love Bishop. Haven't used him much lately as I have been focusing on my Ramos crew, but I have had quite a bit of success with him in my Viks. I particularly enjoy using him to tie up large groups. You charge him into the middle of a group, and then in later turns, defensive stance and cage fighter for defense. His CB is good enough to make breaking away hard, and you have a hard time killing him. I once held up an entire flank of a Kirai crew by doing this.

I may have to join you on this quest to prove he is worth it. It will have to wait for a later date as I am still in a league with Ramos, but I have a few events coming up I might be able to throw him in.

[Requirement]

I hope you prove him decidedly worth it as I want him to be good, I really do.

[osoi]

I agree Rath, I have been taking him for the same reason. I have only been using him with the Vikkys but he does have a different playstyle and is quite mobile

[Hjelmen]

I'm really chuffed that you're doing these experiments, Rath! Bishop is a model that I've wanted to use, especially with Viks, ever since I looked in Book1, but everyone naysaying him put me off ...

I really hope that your findings continue in this vein, because then I might start using him without fear of being pointed out and laughed at in my local gaming group

[Ausplosions]

That game was the quickest for me yet. I've never had Nico go down so quick...

[Finnegan]

So, the next step is to take him with aMarcus, right? RIGHT? :1_Happy_Puppet2:

[Ozz]

I really hope that your findings continue in this vein, because then I might start using him without fear of being pointed out and laughed at in my local gaming group

That just means that after a little study and using him right, you make your opponents eat their words (laughter) and they start to fear when you put him on the table like the dreamer:P If they think he is a threat you get less chance to use him, as they try harder to put him out of action:)

[Sholto]

Bishop?! It's contrarianism gone mad, I tells ya!

[WindlordRyu]

Might have to try him with Kirai, just to have a spirit Bishop. The ability to take half damage, teleport, walk through walls and get heals from half your crew is enough to balance anything.

[Dustcrusher]

Kudos for this. Always nice to get fresh perspectives on pieces drowning in conventional wisdom (Bishop is one reason I ordered the Viks and Taelor separately instead of their starter- the new sculpts being the other reason).

Bishop's 11" Wk plus Cg was enough to get him into melee with a Necropunk sitting on the Destroy Evidence, which he killed in two strikes (critical strike took him to 1 wound from the charge) and then tossed the body away in case he pulled out Killjoy with slow to die (he didn't).

You demonstrated some brilliant uses for his triggers, but this is my favorite. Charge-and-fail as a means of rapid movement seems like it would make the Razorspine Rattler pretty mobile, too, since it has a similar ability.

Might have to try him with Kirai, just to have a spirit Bishop. The ability to take half damage, teleport, walk through walls and get heals from half your crew is enough to balance anything.

I would like to see this in action, because that would be insane.

[Headcase2]

Over the course of my Malifaux career I've played Bishop in 2 tournaments with my Vickies and won both. Maybe I should play him every time as a good-luck charm... Anyway, he may not always have performed well, but he really isn't as bad as most people say. I prefer a defensive role for him, sitting on objectives or tying up my opponent's beatstick models. This has a tendency of getting him killed, but usually only after a turn or 2.

As for (0) actions: 7 times out of 10 I cage fighter for +2 Df, but that's probably because of the way I play him. The other favoutites are adaptive fighter for :masks or :crows ** and cage fighter for +2 Cb (if you're trying to hit something with Df 8, for instance, or trying to keep a Coryphee Duet from disengaging).

** This can sometimes take some setting up, but if you can get some enemy models together (using toss if needed) and next turn you can auto-slow all three with choke... believe me, your opponent will not be pleased.

[Dustcrusher]

Does anyone really think that Bishop is truly a bad model, and not just too expensive for what he does? He seems like he's got a lot to offer; it's the 11 SS out-of-faction cost that hurts.

I imagine he'd get more use if his cost went to 9 base, and I could see him being very popular if his base cost was 8 (that might be too much).

[Hateful Darkblack]

(I'm actually doing one or two last playtests for a Story Encounter designed to make Bishop optimal for the encounter, which I plan to post soon.)

Edited April 24, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[Kadeton]

THIS THREAD - The Best Thread on the Forum(?)

[Nephilim Nate]

I too like Bishop, the cage fighter thing is just kinda cool. I have to say I don't often find a reason to take him but purely for the fact I love Taelor.

I might bring him out a bit more, if fact I think I took him in my last game....

I enjoyed the post anyway, I like underdogs and it can even make the game more fun.

[Guardian]

this thread - the best thread on the forum(?)

+1

[BlueStar86]

Does anyone really think that Bishop is truly a bad model, and not just too expensive for what he does? He seems like he's got a lot to offer; it's the 11 SS out-of-faction cost that hurts.

I imagine he'd get more use if his cost went to 9 base, and I could see him being very popular if his base cost was 8 (that might be too much).

If he actually hit hard, but he'd need something like 3/4/6 or more for his cost.

[magicpockets]

Von Schill companions a Specialist, shoots Bishop twice and kills him (I cheated down to make sure he died to Von Schill and not the specialist, netting me my Frame For Murder Scheme)

Great thread and don't want to derail it, but I didn't think you got points for F4M if a Henchman killed your model when they have a Master leading the crew - only the Master counts as a Leader model?

[Guy in Suit]

Great thread and don't want to derail it, but I didn't think you got points for F4M if a Henchman killed your model when they have a Master leading the crew - only the Master counts as a Leader model?

I was wondering this too. I always assumed Henchman were still 'Leaders' even when not leading, as otherwise they would have written 'Master', since it is very clearly laid out that Henchman count as Masters when leading crews. However, I was informed I was wrong at Adepticon last weekend and it almost cost me my purty trophy!

[Rathnard]

THIS THREAD - The Best Thread on the Forum(?)

Well when you put it that way... :1_Happy_Puppet2:

Great thread and don't want to derail it, but I didn't think you got points for F4M if a Henchman killed your model when they have a Master leading the crew - only the Master counts as a Leader model?

You don't - that was a 3-way game, with Von Schill and Nicodem leading their own crews.

One more short update! I played a game the other night with Bishop in a Zoraida crew vs the Viks in Shared Destroy the Evidence. I won't go into details, but I was able to use Repulsive from Zoraida and Bishops Leap away Trigger (after missed attacks from my Silurid to push Bishop close enough to the centre objective to interact with it on the first turn.

In turn 2, Bishop Charged Taelor, then Slowed (Trigger) and Paralysed (spell) her. Sadly though, he then died in short order to the Viks. It seems that Leap Away is only good if you're opponent is capable of missing the attack.

What I Learnt:

I think the key lesson here is that Bishop is not nearly tough enough to stand up against combat-oriented Masters. Using +2 Df for Cage Fighter would have been a better option than Adaopting for :masks vs the Viks, but Use Soulstone is still going to trump Bishop's Defense. In such cases I think Frame For Murder is the best Scheme to pick here - if Bishop's going to die to your opponents Master, it might as well be worth some VPs to you.

Getting Paralyse on a high cost minion like Taelor was cool and along with Slow, it effectively took her out of action for two turns. I don't see it being a regular thing though - you really need a High Rams to get it off and even then, you might only succeed in drawing out one of your opponent's high cards. Slow however - in light of Headcase2's post, I think I need to be considering this Trigger a little more often.

[Kadeton]

The Viks do tend to kill whatever they want in melee. Bishop's no exception, it just hurts more when you lose him due to his enormous cost. Cage Fighter probably wouldn't help either.

Do you generally use Adaptive for a Mask? I can see Leap Away being situationally useful, and Toss Aside being very situational, but I guess I would generally go with Rams instead, mostly for Critical Strike (provides the possibility of actual decent damage) with the chance at Riposte on the defence. The way that all his Df triggers require the opponent to miss is annoying.

I think this is probably why a lot of people pass over Bishop - it's tough to see an 'optimal' way to use him, which makes you feel like he's not providing his full value. Paralysing and Slowing a model in a single turn is pretty boss if you can pull it off, though.

I'm looking forward to using him in my next game and giving some of this stuff a try.

[Guy in Suit]

I'd take bishop if he were 8 points. Otherwise, Taelor exists and is cheaper.

I do like the clever movement shenanigans though

[Kadeton]

I'd take bishop if he were 8 points. Otherwise, Taelor exists and is cheaper.

I do like the clever movement shenanigans though

That's always been my problem. Taelor is simply amazing at area denial - come over here and you're going to get smashed, it doesn't really matter who you are. Taelor plus a Librarian is incredibly difficult to shift.

Bishop can do as much damage as Taelor, but he has to work at it (Adaptive for a Ram, and Critical Strike with a Ram card in play will just do it). Bishop can ignore Armour like Taelor, but he has to work at it (casting Cage Fighter or using a Tome). Bishop can be tough to kill (with Df 8 and the possibility of Leap Away), but he has to work at it. Taelor does all those things without having to muck around, she can do them all at once instead of having to choose between them, and she has an enormous melee range. Playing Bishop seems like so much careful planning, whereas with Taelor you can just set her up and watch her go, bang bang bang.

However, this thread isn't about Taelor.

I would also happily take Bishop a lot if he were 8 SS. 10 SS is getting into the range where he needs to be seriously dangerous, or incredibly tough, to justify that cost.

[Rathnard]

The Viks do tend to kill whatever they want in melee. Bishop's no exception, it just hurts more when you lose him due to his enormous cost. Cage Fighter probably wouldn't help either.

At the very least, the +2Df from Cage Fighter would helped them burn a few more soulstones along the way, since all of their duel totals ended up 1-2 points higher than mine. Otherwise, you're absolutely right - Bishops death was going to be inevitable regardless of what I did.

Do you generally use Adaptive for a Mask? I can see Leap Away being situationally useful, and Toss Aside being very situational, but I guess I would generally go with Rams instead, mostly for Critical Strike (provides the possibility of actual decent damage) with the chance at Riposte on the defence. The way that all his Df triggers require the opponent to miss is annoying.

I have adapted for Rams before, but Masks has still been my favorite. It still gives me the chance for a Riposte, but the auto-Leap Away trigger prevents him being targetted too many times by a single melee model (esp if they're trying to flurry). Toss aside gives him something that few other models can do - the ability to push an enemy model to where you want. You can use it to move models off objectives, out of cover/melee range for your shooters to target, or into hazardous terrain or placed damage markers (eg. Sonnia's Flame Wall). It also lets him set up multiple charges on the same or different models, and gives him the extra mobility for charging twice (potentially 14" total).

I guess this is also a reflection of how I see him - as a positioner rather than an outright damage dealer.

I do agree that he's overcosted though. From my experiences thus far he's definitely a great model in his own right, but just not quite worth the 10-11 SS you pay to have him out.