Polite Suggestion re Hamelin Errata

[magicpockets]

As Sketch has confirmed they're looking a rebalancing Hamelin I wanted to politely suggest that his Avatar be included in that before it is released. Frenzied Piping has previously discussed issues (i.e. you can't practically use it) and whilst the idea is nice, the combination of Crippling Plague, Poxed Servants, Contagious Eruption, The Gift of Contagion, Piper's Swarm and A Tyrant's Judgement is insanely brutal - especially if you start to stack, kill and resummon rat catchers to get multiple Kill All Rats in the mix. It's a 20" Diameter circle of instant death for the entire enemy crew.

Please take the above feedback as constructive, and please tread carefully with my very expensive collection of Hamelin models....

[Justin]

Please take the above feedback as constructive, and tread carefully with my very expensive collection of Hamelin models....

I have it on good authority that all Malifaux rats are going to be errata-ed to Malifaux koalas.

Yup. Koalas. Turns out they're less powerful.

Sorry. Start remodeling.

:Paralyzed_Puppet:

[Malersatz]

Koalas, huh? The ramifications are daunting...

[Koali]

Jeah Koalas... that woul be great!

Looking forward to this!

But with the request i´m with magicpockets... so

+1

[Omenbringer]

Will Some'r still be able to hire them? If so I am fine with the change.

[ukrocky]

Adam - How do you propose a change so Hamelin can physically be beaten in slaughter?

[Justin]

Will Some'r still be able to hire them? If so I am fine with the change.

Only if he has a eucalyptus token.

[magicpockets]

Adam - How do you propose a change so Hamelin can physically be beaten in slaughter?

Don't get hung up on my SS Factory and the mythical "30 soulstones" (it's not that high) - Hamelin goes down REALLY easy in slaughter, it's just a way for him to try and even up the odds. People seem to have adopted my idea as a definitive way for Hamelin to win slaughter, it really isn't - it's the strategy he really struggles with and the ss factory method just helps him deal with it.

1. Bear in mind you have ridiculous activation control

2. Hamelin has only himself through which to achieve schemes (usually he'll take Gather SS though)

3. Hamelin has only himself to stop you achieving schemes

4. Hamelin has no models to sac to cast his spells (and if he summons a stolen he'll likely be left with a rat which you can kill)

4. It takes Hamelin three turns to get rid of his crew (in which time even Rasputina can get a bead on him)

5. If you get a single rat (from your own models) within 6" of Hamelin you have your entire army to get points from it

So, get over to him, let him activate, kill a 2/3ss model within 6" of him and then go to town on the rat. Easy.

[Craig I hope you don't mind me saying but this is a prime example of Hamelin "misinformation" - people think he's uber broken because they've heard that (in this example) he can't be beaten in slaughter and that's not the case at all. In fact, I'd be surprised if anyone who had actually played slaughter against Hamelin felt like it was impossible to win]

Edited March 23, 2012 by magicpockets

[Lucidicide]

5. If you get a single rat (from your own models) within 6" of Hamelin you have your entire army to get points from it

+1. I would not have thought of that, and it's quite hilarious.

[Oshova]

[Craig I hope you don't mind me saying but this is a prime example of Hamelin "misinformation" - people think he's uber broken because they've heard that (in this example) he can't be beaten in slaughter and that's not the case at all. In fact, I'd be surprised if anyone who had actually played slaughter against Hamelin felt like it was impossible to win]

Admittedly all my Slaughter games against Hamelin have been with Pre-errata LCB, but there are so many situations where just killing off a few rats, doing your Schemes, and staying alive can easily win you this game. The Hamelin player will be the one stressing out about having to do stuff, this really lets you control the game against him, and that is something the Hamelin player won't usually have to do, and so will be more likely to make mistakes. Such as running after your models, and forgetting Schemes (or vice versa).

If you're playing against Hamelin, and they flip Slaughter. This either means they're 1 SS down (to reflip), or you're going to find it easier to deny them some VP.

[magicpockets]

+1. I would not have thought of that, and it's quite hilarious.

And that's the thing. Hamelin is the hardest master to beat not because he's "broken" but because it takes so much understanding of his abilities and thought on the opponent's part. I personally would never worry about an opponent putting Hamelin down against any of my other crews because I know him inside-out, whereas conversely I worry about Kirai because I don't know and understand how she works properly.

I still think he needs toning down, but most of it is (unfortunately) L2PN. I just get the feeling sometimes that some people find it easier to complain he's broken than spend the time learning and practicing against him.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

Admittedly all my Slaughter games against Hamelin have been with Pre-errata LCB, but there are so many situations where just killing off a few rats, doing your Schemes, and staying alive can easily win you this game. The Hamelin player will be the one stressing out about having to do stuff, this really lets you control the game against him, and that is something the Hamelin player won't usually have to do, and so will be more likely to make mistakes. Such as running after your models, and forgetting Schemes (or vice versa).

If you're playing against Hamelin, and they flip Slaughter. This either means they're 1 SS down (to reflip), or you're going to find it easier to deny them some VP.

Can I just point out for those who don't know the UK meta, Tim (Oshova) is part of my local club and the vast majority of his games against Hamelin are against me. So his comments aren't based on playing a new/poor Hamelin player or anything - so they're a real good barometer

Edited March 24, 2012 by magicpockets

[magicpockets]

Okay, as asked I've dug up some of the ideas which came up when we last had a serious conversation about Hamelin which didn't descend into name calling and hair pulling

1. Bully shouldn't affect the things he can't hire (i.e. Gremlins, Constructs and Leader models) - thinking being if they don't care enough to be hired by him, they ain't going to care about slapping him around either

2. Lure Malifaxu Citizen should be a spell. Easy to cast sure (which becomes harder with his -4Ca when he comes back, making it even harder for him to come back again), but not a 1 action - perhaps a 12/13? (I believe this was easy to do as Hamelin needed Stolen within 3" of him, but since that changed he can hide a single Stolen out of harms way - so this should be made more difficult to do)

3. Rats shouldn't be able to kill each other to stall out activations indefinitely - something like "Swarm Mind" - Rats cannot attack/target other friendly rats

4. Impetuous should only give a on attack to counter Nix's emptiness aura (which gives them a ). The on damage is too much.

5. Reducing the range of Voracious Rats to 4" may have quite a positive impact on the game.

6. Nix's emptiness shouldn't affect soulstone flips

7. Perhaps making Nihilism a 12" aura on Nix and Hamelin would be useful rather than it affecting anywhere on the table.

I think if all of those changes were brought it it wouldn't shift him out of the top tier, but would stop him being such a NPE.

Edited March 27, 2012 by magicpockets

[Lucidicide]

I don't like #7, as I think this is crucial to the crew. I'm not sure on #5, would have to think about it more. But other than that, I'd be on board with all of them.

[magicpockets]

Re #5 - it plays quite nicely to be honest, give it a whirl

Re #7 - this was someone else's suggestion and I kinda like it now as it gives the non-Hamelin player a counter to being made insignificant > "if we're insignificant now you can be too". Plus, Hamelin and Nix are hard to kill, so a reward for killing one of them would be nice

[Omenbringer]

That seems to be most of the suggestions I recall from that thread, however (though I definately like that version which helps the Gremlins a lot) there was an alternative suggestion for #1 of giving Bully a Wp resist (which would help everyone).

[magicpockets]

I think the Bully thing on a WP is a bad idea. Like I said at the time (iirc?) we'd effectively just be creating another version of pitiful/harmless which is never good as it adds confusion. Plus, we need to tone down his mechanic, not totally cuddle it - and by adding in multiple card flips you're adding in even more time it takes to play against Hamelin.

Personally I don't think it's needed and could add to the NPE, especially as the proposed changes to Bully above would give every crew plenty of ways to avoid it's effects

[Adanedhel]

1) What about Bullt not affecting Ht1?

It would still be able to do anything with it, but no longer auto for Ht1 models.

I'd prefer the Hamelin player needing to do the work to make something insignificant, rather then just being protected because you were small. This would also be easily copied to the ratcatcher version, giving his ranged weapon an slight extra edge, and making him more flavorfull.

2: agree

3: I think every model should be unable to target a friendly model with the same name, it would also immediatly stop infinite skeeter nonsense, and blowing up your own guys for fun and profit.

4: I'm not sure, we're talking about 1 extra point of Dg max, I don't think in the larger scale of things this would be the problem. But still, it's not going to do any real harm either.

5: agree

6: agree

7: I'm not sure wether the reducing Nihilism range is a good plan, because sometimes you need to spread out, and then you might find yourself stretched to cover every point with only 2 12" bubbles.

[magicpockets]

^^ Bully affecting Ht1 is kind of the point though, he intimidates small and insignificant models

Re the on damage for rats - it's massively important as soon as you start getting multiple rats around something. And - if it doesn't matter - taking it out won't bother you then *wink* Tra la la la la....

7: I'm not sure wether the reducing Nihilism range is a good plan, because sometimes you need to spread out, and then you might find yourself stretched to cover every point with only 2 12" bubbles.

We are trying to lower his power level though, the idea is things become harder for him to do. I think this would be quite useful (I was against it at first) as it makes the Hamelin player play more strategically, limits his ability to leave cheap models in his deployment zone etc for things like Reconnoiter or Hold Out, and gives the opponent a reason to try an kill Hamelin and push him back to the stolen he's hidden in his DZ. This would make playing Hamelin a LOT more fun imo, and add a strategic edge to playing with/against him. It even works fluff wise that he needs to keep his models near him to maintain control/power over them.

Edited March 28, 2012 by magicpockets

[Fetid Strumpet]

I respectfully disagree that allowing Bully to remain as something that cannot be overcome once you are affected by it. I can't comment very much on the other suggestions, as I don't have very much first hand experience playing directly against Hamelin, but this issue is one I feel very passionate about. Infinite loops of any kind, and things that have no possibility of overcoming are some of the only things I personally label broken, and I absolutely loath Bully for that reason.

I personally feel that your argument that, "it would be too confusing, and would lead to more of a negative play experience" while coming from a very good place of understanding Hamelin's mechanics, and the game as a whole, is deeply flawed. Could you explain how actually being able to have some chance to affect Hamelin with something after getting smacked with insignificant, even if it's not a great chance, is a bigger NPE than simply saying "No you can't do anything to me, and there is nothing you can do about it?"

[Lucidicide]

I would be a bigger fan of giving people a way to shrug Hammy's insignificant than changing how Bully works. Something like adding the line: This model may take a (2) to remove Insignificant.

[Finnegan]

I would be a bigger fan of giving people a way to shrug Hammy's insignificant than changing how Bully works. Something like adding the line: This model may take a (2) to remove Insignificant.

On its own, that wouldn't really work against Distract. On the last turn, Hamelin just needs to out-activate you by having his rats kill themselves and then slap Insignificant back onto your master if it was shrugged off.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That's an interesting idea. A (2) is too restrictive I feel however, perhaps a (1) action or you must become Slow, otherwise it's basically the same thing as you can't do anything to me. I'm more ok with insiginificant just staying on, but having some way to go after Hamelin is the big thing I care about.

[magicpockets]

I respectfully disagree that allowing Bully to remain as something that cannot be overcome once you are affected by it. I can't comment very much on the other suggestions, as I don't have very much first hand experience playing directly against Hamelin, but this issue is one I feel very passionate about. Infinite loops of any kind, and things that have no possibility of overcoming are some of the only things I personally label broken, and I absolutely loath Bully for that reason.

I personally feel that your argument that, "it would be too confusing, and would lead to more of a negative play experience" while coming from a very good place of understanding Hamelin's mechanics, and the game as a whole, is deeply flawed. Could you explain how actually being able to have some chance to affect Hamelin with something after getting smacked with insignificant, even if it's not a great chance, is a bigger NPE than simply saying "No you can't do anything to me, and there is nothing you can do about it?"

That's like saying you shouldn't take wounds from poison once you've got it without a resist - it's a game mechanic you need to deal with.

Firstly you don't ever "auto" get made insignificant, there are resist duels etc for it. And yes it's hard, but he is a Master - same as it's hard to stop the Viks meleeing your models to death (and no-one complains that the turn after your model dies it stays dead with no resist to come back to life).

At least with making your models insignificant you get to still use them (Levi can kill them outright in 1AP but no-one complains about that) and - to be honest - I think that's the issue. Because the model is still "there" you feel cheated by Bully as it limits it's options, but if it was dead you'd have even less options.

Secondly, there are plenty of ways to remove insignificant or avoid it's affects. There's no other way of saying it than "Learn to Play" against Hamelin properly - in another thread I've set out a Guild crew that would SHRED Hamelin and his crew, so much for Guild being an auto-lose against Hamelin...

The reason I'm proposing that Bully is toned down to reflect his hiring restrictions is mainly for Gremlins (I think it's hugely unfair they get don't get a choice in it), to stop it affecting Leaders (I think that would be more practical) and - in respect of constructs - to give people more list building options. Plus, fluffwise it's nice that the models he can't hire (presumably because he can't influence them) aren't affected by him in game.

[And sorry for the semi-rant about insignificant, I just don't see the issue with it and thinks it's actually a fairly balanced idea/ability/mechanic]

[Fetid Strumpet]

And again, I'm not making an argument about Hamelin or his crew, I don't have experience with him. I have an issue with Bully.

You are right, overall people don't have a problem if something kills their model, if they feel they have had a fair exchange of interactions. Poison is annoying, but again it's one effect, and if it kills the model, as long as the feeling is that it was fair so be it.

That is totally why abilities like Paralyze and Falling back are so disliked, because once you get hit with them, there is pretty much nothing you can do but suffer them, you model is sitting there and you can't do anything with it. It's why the Fear in third edition D&D was so disliked, it took control of your character away from you.

When you sit down and play a miniature war game thee is an expectation going in that some of your models are going to die. Models dieing is not something you want to have happen, but you know going in that it's going to happen. Not being able to control your models, and having no chance to do what you want to do with them is worse than simply killing them, and it is a large part of why Pandora, and I feel Hamelin are looked at as such massive negative play experiences.

In my experience players want interaction, they want to be able to respond to what you do and give it back to you. It is one of the big reason's the Dreamer, both in the Alp Bomb days and the Boomerang days, were so hated. It was a case of, "I'm going to do this thing you don't like to you and there is really nothing you can do about it. You can't play the way you want to play and feel like you had a shot. You have to play the way *I* want you to play, and if you can't get used to it you will lose and feel like you had no shot."

That's why I feel Bully is Broken. It offers no opportunity for all crews to get around it. The insignificant trait just getting on them I'm fine with, because as much as it sucks to be insignificant, it doesn't have the same NPE connotations as simply not being able to control your model does. It is why I feel that Bully should be changed to allow someone affected by it some way of still going after Hamelin should they want to, because it offers more interaction between the players and gets rid of the "You can't" feeling that Bully currently has.

[magicpockets]

I don't have experience with him.

Okay, there's the first issue - you're theoryfauxing how "bad" Bully is rather than experiencing how it works.

You are right, overall people don't have a problem if something kills their model, if they feel they have had a fair exchange of interactions. Poison is annoying, but again it's one effect, and if it kills the model, as long as the feeling is that it was fair so be it.

Do you think Levi killing ANY model on the board in 1 or 2 AP is fair? Do you think Pandora taking wounds off any model in 12" is fair? Do you think Collette being almost impossible to kill is fair?

That is totally why abilities like Paralyze and Falling back are so disliked, because once you get hit with them, there is pretty much nothing you can do but suffer them, you model is sitting there and you can't do anything with it.

Right, but they're just game effects you have to deal with. I don't like it when Colette does Disappearing Act on my high point minions - but it's just a rule that you have to play with. Malifaux is never going to be "my stuff shoots, your stuff shoots, my stuff melees you, your stuff melees me - wow isn't this game simple".

When you sit down and play a miniature war game thee is an expectation going in that some of your models are going to die. Models dieing is not something you want to have happen, but you know going in that it's going to happen. Not being able to control your models, and having no chance to do what you want to do with them is worse than simply killing them, and it is a large part of why Pandora, and I feel Hamelin are looked at as such massive negative play experiences.

So, simply having your model not count for some VP conditions and not being able to attack a one specific model in my crew but retaining the ability to do everything else and attack the rest of my crew is worse than me killing it? You can't be serious.

In my experience players want interaction, they want to be able to respond to what you do and give it back to you. It is one of the big reason's the Dreamer, both in the Alp Bomb days and the Boomerang days, were so hated. It was a case of, "I'm going to do this thing you don't like to you and there is really nothing you can do about it. You can't play the way you want to play and feel like you had a shot. You have to play the way *I* want you to play, and if you can't get used to it you will lose and feel like you had no shot."

What's p*ssing me off is how you're dramatising Hamelin's insignificant mechanic to be some unstoppable weapon of mass destruction and how that will come across to people (like you I may point out) who've never actually seen him played. All ways to be made insignificant are resistible, the typical threat range is only 10", Hamelin needs to sac his own models to do it, and most crews can get round it.

That's why I feel Bully is Broken. It offers no opportunity for all crews to get around it.

This is completely untrue and typical Hamelin misinformation. Name me a SINGLE crew where this is the case.

===

Essentially, reading over this again, your argument is "I've never actually played Hamelin or seen the Bully effect in action, but I don't think I like it". This is not a good place to be arguing for an errata from and it's stuff like this which damages the game -

"OMFG HAMELIN IZ SO BROKEN AND IMPOSSIBLE 2 BEAT - I'M NOT PLAYIN MALIFAUX UNTIL ITZ MORE BALANCED"

Sorry mate, I really do respect you on here but arguing that something is game-breakingly broken and in need of an Errata when you have no experience of the model (either direct or indirect) is crazy, especially when the people telling you you are wrong are people with a hell of a lot of Hamelin experience.

[Tograth]

perhaps change bully to the following:

Bully: Ht 1 models targetting this model receive :-fate on all duels targetting this model.

it means that Bully is still very effective in limiting what can be done, but it also means that there is still *some* chance of overcoming it.