Calmdown Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I really want to like Samael, because models with a minimum damage that high on a ranged attack cause all sorts of crews all sorts of problems. But: 8ss! Wk 4. No +AP modifier Needs a 9 to cast FB Super easy to kill Terrible spells 8ss! So why/when do you use him and do you consider him good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Not a big fan of Sam for all the reasons you indicated, but if you can get him in a position to unleash he's absolutely lethal. Getting him there though... Even if you protect him with a Guardian he just tends to end up in melee and totally fail. Some minor redeeming factors: > FB lasts until the end of his NEXT activation, so you only have to cast it every other turn and you can try it every turn. > He hurts like hell, but he only really shines if the target's Ca is 6 or higher. If you play against another slow crew it's possible to get your points back (and then some), if you're playing vs. something faster he's one very expensive corpse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I find that Samael complements Sonnia fairly well - Where Sonnia does AoE sort of damage, Samael absolutely wrecks single targets. Now, wk4 aint that impressive, but considering most other Guildies suffer from the same issues, I don't see him getting left behind. Scout/Hunter does help out though. That said, I've never come across a situation where an arrest or a snare would be of greater help than just...shooting stuff. 8 stones is a lot, but he does kill masters/drain stones like a proper dandy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Not a big fan of Sam for all the reasons you indicated, but if you can get him in a position to unleash he's absolutely lethal. Getting him there though... Even if you protect him with a Guardian he just tends to end up in melee and totally fail. Some minor redeeming factors: > FB lasts until the end of his NEXT activation, so you only have to cast it every other turn and you can try it every turn. > He hurts like hell, but he only really shines if the target's Ca is 6 or higher. If you play against another slow crew it's possible to get your points back (and then some), if you're playing vs. something faster he's one very expensive corpse. Warden might help in that he can push the close combatants away from Samael. Guardian + Warden to help Samael doesn't sound too good, though but I suppose it depends on the strategy and the terrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Now if only he had reposition trigger... Anyways. Guardian and Wardens might not be such a terrible idea, considering that they contribute with a lot of other stuff, besides protecting the valuable fleshies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Now if only he had reposition trigger... Anyways. Guardian and Wardens might not be such a terrible idea, considering that they contribute with a lot of other stuff, besides protecting the valuable fleshies... Aye, they do, but babysitting Samael limits their uses quite a bit, so you'd better make Samael count. And that in turn needs suitable strategies and terrain. Samael is problematic design in that since he inflicts such incredibly insane damage, balancing him between sub-optimal and broken is really hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilshot Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 He's worth taking just for the look on your oponents face when you tell them they are taking 5 damage from a weak damage flip and they got 2 more shots coming in ! He can be good given the right terrain, scout and hunter can make him deceptivley quick on a terrain heavy board, but he has got a huge target above his head. Using him with Sonnia against high cast masters can be brutal. He really is a glass cannon though and anyone thats faced him before tends to make him target number one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtank Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Whenever I take Sam I know full well that my opponent is choosing "Kill Protege: Samael" as a Scheme. Makes me sad, because I've never managed to keep him alive long enough to get his points back...though he did come VERY close the one time I played vs Lilith. Opponents don't like getting close but not close enough to Sam. He's actually not bad in Melee either, if you find yourself forced to use that option. He's probably staying in my case more now I have a Witchling Handler though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Samael is so situationally amazing. If I know I'm going up against a high cast crew, might as well take him. With flaming bullets on you can take down just about any master with an ok cast. That being said he really needs a +1 action. Or a movement trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) The amount of damage he can dish out is ridiculous. I take him vs a high Ca crew so he can do the most damage. He also has a decent Cb, so he hits most of the time. I think if he had a better move or a move ability he would be perfect. I like to take him with Perdita so that he can be obeyed into a better firing position. Scout and Hunter can put him into a position where he can be shooting but unseen. He can also be employed as a board control measure. Edited March 9, 2012 by dgraz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Also worth noting is that you really have to take a crew that can support him to get the best effect out of him. I have found with experiance using him he generally needs 2 or more other high cost models 7+ range for guild to cause target priority issues for the opponent. If you take other heavy hitters with him say dita, enslaved, santi, fransisco, guardian, watcher an austringer or two plus stalkers/desperate mercs if you can fit them the enemy has a # of targets that can do a number on them so they might not be able to go straight for him because they have way too many things that can freaking kill the fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 excellent response Odin. Standing alone he may not be anything but a damage dealer, but he brings a lot to a crew as part of a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benw Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I think we all know the thing that sucks most about Samael - his model! As far as stats/rules, I don't mind the big fella. Yes his damage is the most impressive. Flaming bullets last 2 activations is amazing, allowing you to get it up when you don't need to burn cards for Sonnia (or another master/minion) ready for the action. Minimum 5 damage is awesome. I have found his hunting tools don't get much of a look in as melee is not the place for him. Rapid fire and hunter/scout make him unbelievable for shooting, not to mention basic cb 6 on his Colt. If he goes with Perdita and Abuela, you can "Shotgun Wedding" him into the family, companion him with perdita and Abuela, obey him out into los, rapid fire with flaming bullets, then use the other's obey to get him back to safety. But the guild putting out a tonne of ranged damage - what's new about that? Plus, with most things you can counter it with the right tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtank Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 You can't Shotgun Wedding Sam. The power specifies "non-Unique". I really must try Sam with a Guardian...that might help his fragility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hjelmen Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I've used him quite a lot lately, and the term glass cannon is supremely apt. If your opponent allows it, he'll kill almost anything on the board in one activation. But he gets killed so darned easily that it really does mean that your opponent has to allow him to live (or be really unlucky in killing him). His threat range is a bit low as well, and he only really shines when he can get to use Rapid Fire. I've taken to protecting him with Flame Wall, just to get him a single turn in the action :/ I want to like him, but he's just so expensive for what amounts to moar damage in a Guild crew... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benw Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 You can't Shotgun Wedding Sam. The power specifies "non-Unique". I really must try Sam with a Guardian...that might help his fragility. Oops, true dat. Only just got Abuela the other day and have only played her once - did it to Sue so no issue. I think the issue with trying to use bigger, badder things to protect Samael is that you sink too many points into him and he can still be sniped off by someone (or those cheeky Nephlim that I play all the time). He is strategy, scheme and opponent dependent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Oops, true dat. Only just got Abuela the other day and have only played her once - did it to Sue so no issue. Sue's unique too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettqpublic Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I've had great success with him vs. high CA Arcanist crews as part of a Sonnia list. That being stated he's really only worth his points if your opponent brought expensive models to shoot, you're playing on a table that favors shooting, your opponent did not bring fast melee models, and you can protect him from range. That's a pretty tall order. To the OP I would not say Samael sucks because under the blue moon set of circumstances he's a total monster. However, it is much more likely that Sam could be replaced by less expensive, more survivable damage dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benw Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Sue's unique too. Twisting Fates has Sue as unique but his card lists only 'Mercenary'. My limited knowledge tells me that card trumps book therefore, no unique. Welcome to the family Sue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Twisting Fates has Sue as unique but his card lists only 'Mercenary'. My limited knowledge tells me that card trumps book therefore, no unique. Welcome to the family Sue! He is also a named model so is implied to be unique. Look at the Ortegas, Madam Sybelle, the Judge, any of the Masters, none of them have the unique characteristic on them but we all know they are. The omission of the characteristic doesn't mean you can take more than 1 Nino (thank God!!!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benw Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 My bad. It does say it under his soulstone cost. It gets a bit tricky for us newer players with different cards, versions, etc. I'm used to looking under there names for attributes etc. I guess I will have to get his wedding annulled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum528 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 The reason I bring Sam is that your opponent has to choose between getting in position to take him out or distract Sonnia. If they go after him Sonnia makes them pay very dearly for it and she can use him as a body guard until she wipes out half of their crew. If they go after Sonnia, then he makes them pay very dearly for it, then Sonnia makes them pay very dearly for it. He doesn't always do much but since your opponent will like to group together to take him out, he is a godsend for Sonnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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