snarkie Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hi All, I'm a warmachine player who has recently decided to take the plunge into Malifaux. The models are just too cool looking to pass up . I'm having some trouble choosing a master (even after reading the pullmyfinger wiki) and thought that the community could help me. I'm mainly looking for a Master that will allow me to learn the game, but also play well at competitive levels. Originally, I was interested in Hamelin and the Dreamer. However, after talking to a Malifaux player at my LGS I was told that both of those Masters make the game unfun for other players and are definitely not good learning masters. The other three I am interested in are: Lady J: I really like the look of the Death Marshalls that come in her starter set, but am worried that her playstyle is a bit basic and won't fair too well in tournament play. The Vickies: It just seems awesome to have two models as Masters. I also like the look of a lot of their support models (Convict, Ronin) Seamus: He seems like a pretty awesome Master. Hard to kill and with a kick ass gun. However, I'm not too fond of the look of his support crew. Out of these three masters (and others I may have missed), what do you think works well for a new player, but is able to perform equally well in the hands of an experienced player. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koali Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Lady J is always a solid choice... She works well with almost all Models in the Guild ... I alsway feel, like the lady lacks something... maybe an extra Action... or so... to be a real BIG one... but she is close... she is a Meleepowerhorse... All Models in Malifaux have fear when she is handling her greatsword. The vics are tricky... their minionpool is not that good... and they are a litte bit squishy... They are also lacking good magic support. Seamus is a good choice, too.. but a litte bit harder to hanlde than Lady J. His Problem is, that there are so many Crews out there that aer immune to his great WP Powers... (with his Avatar you can go around this)... I´ll also not go fpr Hamelin and the Dreamer... They aer Fun if youz like tocrush your opponent, without letting him play against ou. Instead most of the Time he can´t do anything... Thats annoying... To handle Dreamer and Hamelin, your opponents have to build a special Crrew and have to search for special playstyles... Thats most of the time very boring. So I´ll tent to: Lady, Seamus, Vics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Originally, I was interested in Hamelin and the Dreamer. However, after talking to a Malifaux player at my LGS I was told that both of those Masters make the game unfun for other players and are definitely not good learning masters. Players who guilt other players out of using models they like, make the game unfun for that player. Once you've removed the two worst masters, who's next? Someone has to rise to the top. It's highly unlikely that they're the only unbalanced ones, and everything else is just right. Oh well. What Warmachine faction did you play? Did you like it, and why? I played Cygnar because I enjoyed shooting/range. Malifaux is more about objectives, less about dealing death, so that's not as much fun here. I also played Circle, mostly because I enjoyed the movement/speed/finesse of the faction, and the glass cannon quality (hit and run). Games Workshop's(40k) idea of "hit and run" is Eldar. That game's mechanics don't support anything even close to "hit and run". Circle of Orboros was getting there. For Malifaux, I first picked up Colette. Now, that crew, along with Malifaux's mechanics, truly represent hit and run tactics. I really liked it. Of the models you mentioned, I would probably go with the Viktorias. They're a fun, fairly straight forward master. They're not super powerful by themselves, but throw in Von Schill and you can have a pretty competitive crew. I borrowed a friends a while back, and found that while they were simpler than the crew I was used to playing, they were still quite competitive. As a bonus, they're outcasts like Hamelin. You can pick him up, and perhaps play him one day when he has more acceptable rules, or Wyrd's released something people think is worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Yep, I'd second the recommendation of the Viktorias. I'm not sure what Koali means when he says their "minionpool is not that good"... they have some of the most undercosted minions in the game available to them, and they're definitely competitive at a certain level. I wouldn't put them up against the Dreamer or Hamelin and expect to win, but they can hold their own against everyone else (especially with Von Schill). They're good for getting the basic mechanics of the game down, for learning Soulstone management, and for working out a few basic tricks. Plus, if you decide to go on to other Masters, you can use all the Viks crew models as mercenaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Well I can tell you now that I've seen players do really well (as in winning a tournament) with Seamus and the Viks. I've always found Lady Justice to be one of the easier Masters to face but that might be more because I see alot of new players pickingf her up. In all fairness she can probably do horrible things once you ramp up her mobility with Lucius. Of the three you mention, I think the Viks would offer the most tactical and "competitive" game. She does have some great choices for her crew although she for the most part she does one thing, and that's play the glass cannon melee machine (although she does it pretty well). Ultimately, you need to go for a Master you like the look/feel of. If it happens to be an 'unfun' one like Dreamer/Hamelin, just forego certain elements to make them more fun for your opponent and more challengiong for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkie Posted March 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Thanks for the replies guys! To answer your question, I mainly play Cryx (and have started Legion). I was attracted to Cryx because of their assassination focused playstyle and the fact that their casters looked awesome. Legion attracted me because I got tired of playing infantry machine and wanted a beast heavy faction that hit hard and had some decent ranged options. Yeah, All of the scenarios and objectives are what are really attracting me to malifaux. The deck mechanics and the lower model count seem pretty cool as well. Todd, The Vics attracted me due to the fact that they look like they have some movement shenanigans that would be cool for objective taking. You say that they aren't super powerful by themselves, but with the proper crew they can be competitive. Do you think that Seamus and Lady J are more powerful as Masters, but don't have as many good options for their crews? I also agree that players should play what they want to play and not worry about what other people say (My local meta is really cool about that, but at Templecon as a cryx player, a win was never a win, It's a "Privateer Press should balance your faction better") Koali, When you say the Vics are lacking magic support do you mean that they have nothing to deal with magical enemies? or that they don't have a ton of spell slingers? Will this be problematic for me? Also, with Seamus and having a ton of crews ignore his cool abilities, what does that leave him with? Just his basic attacks and his crew? Thanks again for the quick replies! ---------- Post added at 03:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 AM ---------- Yep, I'd second the recommendation of the Viktorias. I'm not sure what Koali means when he says their "minionpool is not that good"... they have some of the most undercosted minions in the game available to them, and they're definitely competitive at a certain level. I wouldn't put them up against the Dreamer or Hamelin and expect to win, but they can hold their own against everyone else (especially with Von Schill). They're good for getting the basic mechanics of the game down, for learning Soulstone management, and for working out a few basic tricks. Plus, if you decide to go on to other Masters, you can use all the Viks crew models as mercenaries. Sounds more and more like I should go with the Viks. Malifaux seems like a game that I can eventually own a few masters from different factions with since you don't need as many models (and can make up being short by starting with extra soulstones). I know when I was looking at Lady J. I saw the Convict Gunslinger with her as well so it is appealing to me that the models in the Vics group seem to get use outside of the outcast faction. Well I can tell you now that I've seen players do really well (as in winning a tournament) with Seamus and the Viks. I've always found Lady Justice to be one of the easier Masters to face but that might be more because I see alot of new players pickingf her up. In all fairness she can probably do horrible things once you ramp up her mobility with Lucius. Of the three you mention, I think the Viks would offer the most tactical and "competitive" game. She does have some great choices for her crew although she for the most part she does one thing, and that's play the glass cannon melee machine (although she does it pretty well). Ultimately, you need to go for a Master you like the look/feel of. If it happens to be an 'unfun' one like Dreamer/Hamelin, just forego certain elements to make them more fun for your opponent and more challengiong for you. Would you say that both of the Viks excel in melee more than ranged? Just by looking at the models themselves (still waiting for the updated rulebook and the two expansion books to come in the mail so I don't have access to stats) it seems like one is ranged and the other is melee. I thought that would create a pretty cool dynamic if that's the case. I guess if they are both melee based, it makes sense why a lot of their core crew (ronin, convict, hans) seem to be ranged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Play whatever you want. Tournament scenes are largely friendly games anyway. Certain masters are considered to have these "anti-fun" mechanics that some people just don't like facing: Hamelin disables your crew from being able to take objectives, and forces bad flips on you (just imagine roll two dice take lowest). Dreamer has the ability to attack you in your deployment zone with a melee heavy character, and return to his own deployment zone, in one model's activation as well as the ability to drop his entire crew from his deployment zone into yours. Pandora can move across the whole board forcing you to roll off and make you take damage each time you fail, and can cast repeatedly. Som'er can make you discard your entire hand then attack for double damage where he can cheat in high cards and you have no option. Some find this "anti-fun". What you shouldn't do is not play them because of it. Equally, nothing stops you from building a "friendly" crew for playing people locally; no one says you have to take the best of the best every time. Viks are hugely melee, entirely. The one with the pistol will still be getting into melee, it's not that good. Your ronin will be melee too ;3 And Hans is a bit too expensive to field for what he grants, you will probably use the freikorps trapper if you want shooty shoots. Seamus isn't very survivable due to the way the mechanics work, if you wanted him because of how he looks, play him. If you thought he'd be a meaty tank, don't touch him. Assassination playstyle would suit: Lady J + Lucius (can teleport her into the fight), The Dreamer, Ophelia LaCroix, Leveticus, Zoraida (likely you would enjoy her with Ophelia), Pandora, Von Schill. I think Von Schill is where you want to be right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Would you say that both of the Viks excel in melee more than ranged? Just by looking at the models themselves (still waiting for the updated rulebook and the two expansion books to come in the mail so I don't have access to stats) it seems like one is ranged and the other is melee. I thought that would create a pretty cool dynamic if that's the case. I guess if they are both melee based, it makes sense why a lot of their core crew (ronin, convict, hans) seem to be ranged. SwordVik is obviously a melee specialist. GunVik has a nice ranged attack but she's good enough with her one sword to generally be considered more a melee model than ranged. For the most part though, she's often used to support SwordVik - slingshotting her forward into combat, pulling her back and/or boosting her melee with the Sisters in Battle spell. I tend to view the Viks crew as a crew of independent specialists - there's not as much synergy as other crews, but each model tends to be pretty good at what they do. I wouldn't say that her core crew is primarily ranged. Of the Book 1 Mercs, Hans and the Convict 'Slinger are ranged specialists, but the Ronin, Johan, Bishop, Misaki, Taelor, and Killjoy all favour melee, while Hamelin and the Student of Conflict are definitely more support - oriented. In Book 2 you've got the Freikorps, all of whom tend to be ranged except for the Librarian (support...and how!) and possibly the Freikorpsman (probably balanced shooting/melee). In short, between the available Mercs you've got a decent list of minions across multiple specialties, all of which tend to have their own strengths and weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koali Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Ok more about my thoughts about the Vics. Ther Minion Pool is very limited. What do i mean by that.... The Vics have rarely Minions with Synergies... They have a lot of very cheap and Powerful Minions they can coose from... but in my experiance the Lists fill themself always with the same minions... I´m missing the options here... I see more Option in a Justice or Seamus List... And donßt forget if you can Play it with the Vics.. you also can Play it with Seamus or Lady J... because all minions of the Vics are Mercs... Socond one... Lack of Magic... The Vicys have Hamlin (minion) and The Libarian.. als Havy Spellcasters that support your Troops... Thats it... The rest is about Melee or Ranged support... So here you have in Seamus and Lady J Crews also better Options... you have the Mellee and Ranged Minions PLUS good support Minions... All around... I find the vics are a Powerhorse if you Play Mellebased Strategies... There are very few crews who can beat them in such Strategies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Viks have access to Sue, for rather impressive anti-magic options, and the ability to spread some burning tokens/magic damage about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koali Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Jeah... and Sue and the Libarian are pretty cool for Card Advantage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Viks have access to Sue, for rather impressive anti-magic options, and the ability to spread some burning tokens/magic damage about True but if they take Sue they can't take Von Schill, who also works very well with them. Back to the OP. If you like Hamelin or the Dreamer then go ahead and play them. Play what you like and enjoy the game. If you personally find that they are OP and not fun to play then you can move on to something else. Don't let others make the choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgfree Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Back to the OP. If you like Hamelin or the Dreamer then go ahead and play them. Play what you like and enjoy the game. If you personally find that they are OP and not fun to play then you can move on to something else. Don't let others make the choice. So much THIS. It's your hobby, play what you want to play. I caution new people away from Dreamer and Hamelin only because of the mechanics. I usually recommend that they get a solid understanding of the rules first, then step up to the more complicated master. That being said: It's your hobby, play what you want to play. If you really want to play Dreamer or Hamelin, go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 From a competitive standpoint, look at Viktorias. Outcasts are probably the second most competitive faction overall, even without looking at Hamelin, and a lot of the models you use can be useful when you start another faction (note, that was not an "if"; you WILL play another faction at some point...). In addition to being competitive, they are straightforward to learn (they kill things) and they are also fun to play with and against (because they just kill things... no stupid tricks). Plus they have chicks with swords and hammers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkie Posted March 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Thanks for all of the replies so far. This has been extremely helpful . I think I will hold off on playing the Dreamer or Hamelin simply because many have mentioned that other Master's will help me grasp the core rules and mechanics better. And Calmdown is right, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I pick up another faction/master (or three ). I've recently taken a look at the Kirai models and think they look really cool as well. How would you compare her playstyle, etc. to Seamus and the Viks. Would she fall into the Hamelin category as too advanced/specialized to get a firm grasp on the game with? Between three original choices, I've narrowed it down to Seamus and the Viks now and am pretty much leaning towards going with the Viks since that seems to be what everyone is suggesting (unless you guys think Kirai would be better). Do any of these Master's excel at winning on scenario/schemes opposed to attrition? Most of my warmachine armies focus on attrition and the idea of winning via VP opposed to just out killing the other person seems really cool to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Kirai is quite simple really, and is a lot of fun, though not too much bleedover between her and Seamus. Kirai excels at VPs due to her huge movement options, and spirits being generally survivable, as well as having some strong killers. Seamus falls over a bit in this regard; Viks is 50/50. You will get the most mileage out of Kirai. But I don't like her, so get Viks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serigala Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Its probably not worth buying the Viks boxset. You'll never use Johan or Bishop. You will fare better with 2 x Viks, Taelor, 3 xRonin (blister), and then maybe the VonSchill boxset (or at least VonSchill and the Librarian). This also gives you a second crew to dabble with. Add a Convict Gunslinger or maybe a Desperate Merc and you'll be set for a good few months. I also use the Student of Conflict but recognise that is often a wasted 3 SS. You will always play the Viks with 6-8 SS, so you won't need quite as many models as you might with other crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SardonicArtery Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 To answer your question, I mainly play Cryx (and have started Legion). I was attracted to Cryx because of their assassination focused playstyle and the fact that their casters looked awesome. Legion attracted me because I got tired of playing infantry machine and wanted a beast heavy faction that hit hard and had some decent ranged options. Psht, you play the two hated factions there; why not play Dreamer and Hamelin in Mali-land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valcurdra Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 All the three masters you are looking at are great starting masters that perform well overall. This game is pretty well balanced in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarkie Posted March 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Okay guys, I'm going to go with the Viks or Kirai. If I go witht he Viks is it better to buy the Von Schill box or just Von Schill and the Librarian? The box will be about $18 more then just buying the 2 models, which I have no problem with if I'll be able to get use out of them. I'm thinking about getting the following if I go with Viks: Viks x2 Convict Gunslinger x1 Ronin x3 (one clamshell) Von Schill and Librarian -or- Von Schill box Does picking up Taelor, Student, and a Desperate Merc really expand what I can do with the Viks or is what I have up there good enough? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Taelor is worth getting, as she is strong, but if you have von schill you are likely to just use him; depends on your ss use. Student, nah. Desperate Merc; yes, because it's 2ss =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 I'd go ahead and get the box sets, definitely the freikorps one. They're such good deals. You never know, the less useful models (Bishop) may be better one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Kirai is also a much higher potential model count master (she usually starts the game with anywhere from 8-12 minions on the table at the average 35 soulstone level, and summons more as things die). For just getting into the game, the two Viks, Ronin, and Von Schill will do you for up to 30 SS, then for beyond that, or having more options, try out a Student of Conflict and/or Librarian. This keeps your initial investment low just in case you don't enjoy the game (which doesn't matter because we're all sure you will . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serigala Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) Okay guys, I'm going to go with the Viks or Kirai. If I go witht he Viks is it better to buy the Von Schill box or just Von Schill and the Librarian? The box will be about $18 more then just buying the 2 models, which I have no problem with if I'll be able to get use out of them. I'm thinking about getting the following if I go with Viks: Viks x2 Convict Gunslinger x1 Ronin x3 (one clamshell) Von Schill and Librarian -or- Von Schill box Von Schill has nice synergies with the rest of the Freikorps, so you can run a Freikorps only crew with VonS as leader -especially at lower point games. For my money, the Ronin are much better than the Freikorpsmen, so in a Viks led crew I rarely include them...even when I have included VS who is great for objective capping. The Specialist is such a threat with a relatively short range, that he is the first thing opponents kill - virtually every game. Does picking up Taelor, Student, and a Desperate Merc really expand what I can do with the Viks or is what I have up there good enough? Thanks! Taelor is great. Very resilient, 3" melee, magical weapon. She is a bit slower than a Viks, Ronin, VonS crew though as they all have movement tricks. Good defensive model. Desperate Merc, is a 1 hit wonder for 2SS. Good to use up the last 2 SS, so you don't end up eating to far into the Viks SS cache (which needs to be large). The Student is very situational. 3SS to give the Viks fast is expensive, but can be priceless. It gives you 1st activation destroy the evidence on the counter in the centre of the table for instance. It also extands the Viks threat range by about 5". With the right cards in hand even 1 whirlwind delivered into a group of models can be amazingly effective. Fast isn't just 1 extra attack, its 1 more round of Whirlwind, which is often 3 or 4 attacks. It can also be used effectively with the Librarian. 1 Vik stays in the backfield with Librarian for healing and Student for Fast, and swaps in and out tag team style with the other Vik in the action. I'd usually rather have a Desperate Merc and a Student than an extra Ronin, just for the variety. That said the student is generally considered overpriced for what it does. Edited March 4, 2012 by Serigala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezzo Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Do not forget to have Friekkorp Specialist and Student of Conflict in your sideboard. They make effective additions to speed up or give your crew more versatility to deal with different crew / master types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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