Malifaux Masters: A Tier List

[ravenborne]

Depends on how the Dreamer player strikes, so let's start with that. Give me the opening scenario you envision in the Dreamer vs Nico game. Specifically, which turn and which activation within that turn would Chompy strike? Would he go straight for Nicodem or other models first? How many activations have you left on Chompy to both kill Nicodem and hide? Or is this even how and against whom you see the Dreamer player striking?

I ask for specifics because Ive seen Dreamer played a few different ways by very good players. For example bunniegod (Webster) runs him a little differently than Nix, and I would have to go back and look at Calmdown's tactica to see how he does it.

[nilus]

Wait, wait. I got this. It clearly means your players are horrible and should melt down their figs to cast into Space Marines or something!

CrazyCarl you be crazy man. They have not made a Space Marine out of metal since the 90s

[ravenborne]

Have a minute to post...so to be less evasive than before....

Seems to me Chompy will need at least 1 AP to kill the Grave Spirit, maybe 2 (That's also if he can reach him (good placement can mess this attack up). Still, 2 AP at best to kill a H2W model can happen, but with SS's Nicodem has a very good chance of survival.

If the attack isn't the very first move, Nicodem can have a group of Mindless Zombies out and around him within 2 the second activation.

Whatever isn't buried has to be killed quickly, in preparation for the next hit. Nico would also do well to heal himself with Decay in prep for this.

I'm glossing things over a bit, I don't have time for a full detailed writeup. I have run the Nico vs Dreamer scenario a few times and it is very very difficult for Nico, but I have also won it before.

[Calmdown]

Activation 1, Chompy eats your Grave Spirit and severely damages Nico.

Your choice is now: Slaughter your own models for corpses to make Zombies out of, or lose Nico on turn 2.

That is how literally every game vs Dreamer will go. The rest of the game is irrelevent. And while you're faffing with no models on the board, moving up slowly and trying to keep Nico alive, the Dreamers Night Terrors/Madness/whatever are completing all of his objectives

Why you think Nicodem cannot be easily killed is beyond me. I really dont get it. He's super fragile and his Df of 3 almost counteracts his HtW since you'll be hit for better flips more often.

Nicodem literally cannot beat Chompy without massive luck on his side.

And that is why we have tier lists.

[Q'iq'el]

Whatever isn't buried has to be killed quickly, in preparation for the next hit. Nico would also do well to heal himself with Decay in prep for this.

Just that one point... You need to bring Mindless Zombies and some Punks as fast as possible, so every AP counts. Decay is nice AoE heal for your minions, but if you want to heal Nicodem, a Healing flip is more efficient. Especially that he cannot target himself with Decay (he can bounce it from nearby model to get caught in the blast or the totem can cast it on him, but it still is likely to be less healing for the AP spent than with the Healing flip).

I don't think the answer to the Dreamer lies in Nicodem's survivability or ability to employ spells early on - the opponent is likely to be out of range and the survivability is only so-so against Melee masters.

Instead you can bring models that make any attempt at encroaching on Nicodem risky. Crooked Men can mine up the access routes and multiple cheap models can base block access to him. You also need to steal the initiative 2 first turns to set up his defenses. May be impossible against top players, but it does work on the average playing level, I think. It doesn't change the fact you start uphill (first two activations you strive to gain some foothold and you need to bring the right crew) while the other side of the field comes up with their default list and plays their standard tactics.

I've argued for Nicodem in the past. I still think he isn't at the bottom of the tiers. I understand he is very weak against some masters, but so are the others. The popularity of the Dreamer is a bit of meta-game thing. If it is predominant master in your area, that affects Nicodem's viability, but I haven't seen a single Dreamer since the last summer.

Either way, I eagerly await Malifaux v.2. I love the current game, but I think it's time to stop the flood of new models, that make it very difficult to properly balance the game, and rebalance all the existing factions. I don't think the game needs any huge adjustments, but it does need some effort to make the rules more streamlined, easier to play and easier to balance in the future.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Cunning]

If the dreamer player wins activation 1st turn he doesn't even need to worry about the grave spirit.

Fly in, kill Nico. Bish bash bosh.

Either way, I eagerly await Malifaux v.2. I love the current game, but I think it's time to stop the flood of new models, that make it very difficult to properly balance the game, and rebalance all the existing faction. I don't think the game needs huge adjustment, but it does need some effort to make the rules more streamlined, easier to play and easier to balance in the future.

This, very much this.

[Spiku]

Yeah book 3 was a bit of a sub struggle with the way the models came in with discrepencies between what was being granted across the board.

It would be nice to relaunch on Malifaux

[Fetid Strumpet]

Either way, I eagerly await Malifaux v.2. I love the current game, but I think it's time to stop the flood of new models, that make it very difficult to properly balance the game, and rebalance all the existing faction. I don't think the game needs huge adjustment, but it does need some effort to make the rules more streamlined, easier to play and easier to balance in the future.

+2

[Spiku]

What did book 3 do, by the by?

[Hatchethead]

Either way' date=' I eagerly await Malifaux v.2. I love the current game, but I think it's time to stop the flood of new models, that make it very difficult to properly balance the game, and rebalance all the existing factions. I don't think the game needs any huge adjustments, but it does need some effort to make the rules more streamlined, easier to play and easier to balance in the future.[/quote']

100x this.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If Wyrd ever decides to do this I would recommend bringing in some of the competitive players in both the US and UK who have shown great skill in discovering some of the possibly unintentional combinations that have arisen.

[nilus]

If Wyrd ever decides to do this I would recommend bringing in some of the competitive players in both the US and UK who have shown great skill in discovering some of the possibly unintentional combinations that have arisen.

I'm sure if and when a new book or new edition is in the works Wyrd will put out the word if they are looking for more testers. Unfortunately some of the more outspoken of the competitive gamers from both sides of the pond don't tend to have the best forum etiquette, which will probably get them put on the "Do not want" list.

[Q'iq'el]

The most controversial combos we've seen since the days of Book 2 were all defended as intended at the release and then fixed at some later point. I don't think any synergy of the masters or minions deemed "broken" by the community was truly unintended or new.

The problem is that a situation one can deal with in the tests may still produce a very serious problem in the field... and small problems with balance show up only in a long run.

I suppose more testing is always welcome, but rather than seeing more testing, I'd like to see more uniform set of abilities which is easier to balance and manage.

[nilus]

I suppose more testing is always welcome' date=' but rather than seeing more testing, I'd like to see more uniform set of abilities which is easier to balance and manage.[/quote']

I agree some streamlining is good but you have to be careful. To much of it and models start to lose there uniqueness. Malifaux thrives because every model tells its own unique story.

[Omenbringer]

If Wyrd ever decides to do this I would recommend bringing in some of the competitive players in both the US and UK who have shown great skill in discovering some of the possibly unintentional combinations that have arisen.

Who is to say this wasn't done in the previous playtest cycles or that the "unintentional combinations" weren't discovered there?

The problem is that a situation one can deal with in the tests may still produce a very serious problem in the field... and small problems with balance show up only in a long run.

Very true statement, how many of the mega online video games that have open long beta tests with literally thousands of playtesters are released with major bugs and in need of rebalancing. Playtesting is more difficult than it appears (especially against a timeline).

[Q'iq'el]

I agree some streamlining is good but you have to be careful. To much of it and models start to lose there uniqueness. Malifaux thrives because every model tells its own unique story.

And yet this is what makes the game both hard to balance and less and less accessible to new players at the same time.

The uniqueness of every master and almost every minion was great in Book 1, tested by Book 2 and pushed overboard in Book 3 IMO. Even though Book 3 doesn't introduce all that many new minions it often redefines the old synergies and changes how the lists from Book 1 or Book 2 work... making it necessary for new players to consider all 3 books to be able to learn the game (even if you don't have to buy minions from all the three book, you still need to understand them to oppose them).

I realize one cannot just press gang the minions into warhammer units and preserve Malifaux' uniqueness and atmosphere, but there is a need to make the rules much more accessible. Both by unifying similar rules under the same name and finding a way to publish all the rules for all the models in one easy to access place (book, smartphone app, e-book...)

And I think the pace at which models are released is too high for the game's own good. We've seen 2~3 Book 1 minions a month and similar release pace for Book 2... now we have 5~6 boxes a month and before we even learn how to play them properly, it's going to be Book 4. Too fast for a miniature game.

[Rathnard]

Playtesting is more difficult than it appears (especially against a timeline).

+1 Omenbringer. I couldn't agree more.

It's not really fair on the beta testers to blame them for not spotting certain combos that become evident later on. Take Bury for example - despite being a Book 1 minion, the potential abuse with Bete Noire and Bury (and Nurse!) wasn't really considered until recently. That's a good 2 years of public scrutiny before it starts becoming widely known.

[Requirement]

**to clarify, apparently <<some absurd number>> is actually 5200. Get to playing Minions!!!

I feel like this is what we should all actually just be talking about. Someone set up a system where we can all input our games and actually get this done, together, happily in unison.

[Wulfen]

+1 Omenbringer. I couldn't agree more.

It's not really fair on the beta testers to blame them for not spotting certain combos that become evident later on. Take Bury for example - despite being a Book 1 minion, the potential abuse with Bete Noire and Bury (and Nurse!) wasn't really considered until recently. That's a good 2 years of public scrutiny before it starts becoming widely known.

It's absolutely fair, as this is exactly what testers should be doing, trying to break things, not 'oooh aaaahing' at the cool new stuff. Certainly testers don't share all the blame, I think part of this is due to Wyrd still being new to game design, in large part, when you compare them to other companies. I think maybe they're still working the kinks out on how to have an effective test that can find the majority of this before things like the Dreamer and his minions come out.

[nix]

Anyone who is interested in welcome to grab a copy of my spreadsheet. Its what I use to track hobby progress along with my games.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnJtbn7X1NH2dGVqcG82TlhBM3p0NnJKcmtvNXp1bGc

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

It's absolutely fair, as this is exactly what testers should be doing, trying to break things, not 'oooh aaaahing' at the cool new stuff. Certainly testers don't share all the blame, I think part of this is due to Wyrd still being new to game design, in large part, when you compare them to other companies. I think maybe they're still working the kinks out on how to have an effective test that can find the majority of this before things like the Dreamer and his minions come out.

I believe you far underestimate the work that goes into development and testing of this game.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've been involved in play testing before and I very much agree that it is very difficult to catch everything. Especially with a game as complex as Malifaux. If it sounded like I was blaming them it was not the case. However we now have had, as has been said, two years of a wider community playing the models and some tightening up could be beneficial at some point.

I agree with Q on tightening some of the wordings, for example, Rotten Belles have Shambling as an ability, which I believe basically does exactly the same thing as scout, I feel this is one example of tightening that could be explored. Similarly there are multiple versions of Headshot which has basically the same mechanics as Decapitate, Slit Jugular, and Disembowel, some of which do dmg as well as the death effect, and some that don't. Personally I feel they should all be cleaned up mechanically into one ability. Getting Key words down to a CCG level where they always appear the same way for game effects would also be a beneficial step. Lastly a look at book 1 Masters I feel needs to be addressed. I can accept that there are always going to be the most powerful and least powerful options in a game, no game system other than one based only on equal luck on both sides is going to be perfectly balanced, however the level of that balance can very wildly along those options and currently I feel we have a situation where that level is in some cases too spaced out. I personally would like to see a little boosting of the individual Masters themselves, but I could definitely go with introducing new minions which offered better synergies and increased the effectiveness of the masters without change. For example if The Dreamer didn't have access to daydreams he would still be playable, I think he would still do very well at many things and still be a competitive master, however it is the interaction with the Daydreams, among other things, which really kicks things up a notch or two. Should other minions be introduced which improved the weaker book 1 masters to the same degree I'd have no complaints.

[ravenborne]

Anyone who is interested in welcome to grab a copy of my spreadsheet. Its what I use to track hobby progress along with my games.

Crap, if you're keeping records I am going to have to try harder!

[Q'iq'el]

@Fetid Strumpet - this is exactly what I'm speaking about.

And I also think you guys under appreciate the abilities of Beta testers. I remember distinctly that chain Double Take, Bête Noire+Bury and other such tricks have been extensively discussed shortly after the models become available and in each and every case these were deemed balanced and acceptable.

What I'm trying to say is that even if Beta testers find a very complex synergy and win games with it, it still won't be obvious if such a move really breaks things or is a trick people quickly develop a counter for. But a simpler rules system with results easier to predict and models a bit more uniform in mechanics they use, now that allows both for better predictions and for quicker fixes.

[Omenbringer]

It's absolutely fair, as this is exactly what testers should be doing, trying to break things, not 'oooh aaaahing' at the cool new stuff. Certainly testers don't share all the blame, I think part of this is due to Wyrd still being new to game design, in large part, when you compare them to other companies. I think maybe they're still working the kinks out on how to have an effective test that can find the majority of this before things like the Dreamer and his minions come out.

As a forumite that has openly admitted to being a playtester I can say that the playtests did have the "ooohs and aaaahs" guys, however the majority of us diligently worked to break things with the lofty goal of relative balance. I tend to think we did a pretty good job given the shear amount of unique model/ rules interactions in this game and the time lines.

In regards to Wyrd being new to the game (and at the risk of sounding like a "fan boy"), several other companies (with much, much more experience) still release products that suffer from these exact problems. It is very difficult to gauge what subtle interactions will develop into the next "broken combo" (additionally, playtesters have the benefit/ curse of direct interactions with the developers and the intent of models/ abilities which aids comprehension but can hinder subtle abuses. In other words knowing how something is supposed to work makes it more difficult to catch laguage that doesnt convey the same.).

However we now have had, as has been said, two years of a wider community playing the models and some tightening up could be beneficial at some point.

How long did it take Privateer Press to update their ruleset to Mk II (or even prior to that Prime:Remix) or Games Workshop to update codices/ rule sets? Though I definately agree that there are things that need retooling/ rebalancing I also except that time is an unfortunate requirement.

---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------

But a simpler rules system with results easier to predict and models a bit more uniform in mechanics they use' date=' now that allows both for better predictions and for quicker fixes.

If history is any example then both of these are inevitable.

[Justin]

I will say this about playtest:

You guys have no idea what ISN'T in there now and was in playtest.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Justin