Things I Hate About Malifaux

[Keltheos]

Rules Manual is $15.

[fritz the cat]

I find it funny when people complain at master vs master balance. with 20 different masters, 6 henchmen... 26 models, with 26 differing ways of playing, compounded on the number of different minion combinations changing the abilities of said models...

And you want it to be balanced any one against another...

Only way thats going to be balanced is if they're all the same, its a logistical nightmare to try and cross balance with the plethora of different in game interactions between models.

[Ciaran]

I don't hate anything about the game itself. I enjoy how quirky it is, I LOVE the balance point. I love taking "auto lose" masters in situations, and working my opponent over.

I DO severely dislike how emotionally reactionary some of the community is. It sometimes reminds me of a bunch of spoiled children with their "this is what I think so it's right" mentalities.

That is all.

[Kael Hate]

An Irk that I hated at the time.

Not being able to cheat Neg flips.

The percentage going from a neutral to flip is horrid. Why can I replace cards in a flip but not a flip?

Suggestion: Allow you to replace 1 of the flipped cards as you would normally but you still must choose the lower of the cards. IE. Flip is 2,5,7,9. Normally you'd have to take the 2. But you could cheat out the 2 for a 6 and instead take the 5 as the lowest card. Brings a mechanical balance that is missing and a thing that I Hate. lol.

[brdparker]

As with all of the above, very few things truly bother me.

However, a simple change that I think could lead to good places would be if instead of declaring your faction early in the game (before crew selection), you declared your master. It would allow you to choose the crew based on the weaknesses of the opposing master (or to negate your own), and would get rid of the whole "crap! If I had know you'd be fielding THAT master, I would have tossed in some terrifying models!" factor.

Other than that, I think the things I like best about malifaux is the crew selection potentials (Hamelin the Ratcatcher's ability to hire a Ht. 1 model comes to mind first). That said, I would love to see more of it!

Mercs with text like this:

"Ressurectionist crews hiring this model can hire the Viktorias in Brawls at no 5 SS penalty"

"If this model is in a crew with Perdita, the crew can also hire nephilim at no additional cost, but they start play with 2 wds. Additionally, you can join Lilith in a Brawl, but she starts play with 2 wds."

"Arcanists hiring this model can hire 1 additional totem. This totem can be hired out of faction. It looses the (1) Magical Extension spell"

"Crews hiring this model can also hire a nightmare or spirit of any faction as long as it is controlled by a henchman"

Y'know... stuff like that. That sort of stuff's fun to play around with.

[i_was_like_you]

You know what I hate about Malifaux...

When people call it Malifacts

I think you mean Malifox.

Yeah, Malifo is such a difficult concept for folks who never heard and saw faux pas or faux fur before.

As far as the Rules Manual, yeah, still struggling with that. The diagrams do, often, tend to be more important than the phrasing of the rules. The layout of the book itself is also...scattered, to say the least. "Okay, so this is something common, it should be in the back of the book in the quick reference section...Nope...Okay, maybe it's hiding in the traits section? Nope. Hmm. Let's check the index. Nothing close?"

It's not just the layout that's problematic. I'm not quite sure how it could or should have been accomplished, but it would have been nice to have some kind of footnote, on the relevant page(s) explaining how the current rule has supplanted the previous rule, maybe even giving a date it was changed when possible, or that there should be a rule here but it's now obsolete.

That may seem a tad bit difficult for the final, published product, but for the pdf, a monthly edit, handled only by one or two Marshals, would suffice. Namely, I'd suggest Ratty as he is quite the tech guru around here. Without his crew creator, a lot of lists just wouldn't see play as we'd have to double check everything just to see if the models can even be hired in the same crew.

[dsmiles]

I think you mean Malifox.

Hell, I've even heard "Mollyfox."

[i_was_like_you]

The Cover and Elevation rules. The whole measuring only horizontally thing and only counting cover when within 1" of it (but not if the other person is as well)...

they are massively counter intuitive.

It should be simplified down to "Is the line from your base to theirs obscured by anything? They get cover. Is the thing covering them hard? They get armour"

That sounds a little better, actually. What kind of archery rules for ranged weapons are we using where the intervening model, object, or terrain has to be within 1" to receive the benefit? It sounds like using the M203 grenade sights, meant for lobbing the round over walls and obstacles, when trying to fire bullets out of my M16/M4. It's just not gonna work.

Now, for some models, it does make sense. Like with Sonnia, who is basically walking artillery piece, when the target has a high Ca, she still has clear LoS to the target with spells, as though she had a spotter or thermal imaging. A weapon that rains fire from the sky, in her case, literally, is going to ignore or destroy the intervening item no matter what its placement.

Hell, I've even heard "Mollyfox."

That she is...If you don't mind all the blood.

[Mike3838]

Three prospective new players this past week were turned away because of the cost of the actual book and the pitiful state the PDF is in.

Wow, really? That's incredibly cheap as rulebooks go. And surely to new players you need to be pushing the RM as the one book you need to get started? The older books are entirely optional.

You say you're short of players, but it's hardly the best way to entice people into playing the game by leading with the irrelevant: "Well, the first edition of the rules had loads of mistakes in it"

Mike

[fritz the cat]

A set of quick start rules would be a great boon to this game I think. Something that kinda dumbs it down for a few games to take you baby steps into the breach

[Sandwich]

Hell, I've even heard "Mollyfox."

I don't know if it's just me, but have you ever heard someone call it Maul-e-faux?

Wow, really? That's incredibly cheap as rulebooks go. And surely to new players you need to be pushing the RM as the one book you need to get started? The older books are entirely optional.

You say you're short of players, but it's hardly the best way to entice people into playing the game by leading with the irrelevant: "Well, the first edition of the rules had loads of mistakes in it"

Mike

It's not the price, but the principle.

I don't push any books on them, I let them use my models and my books.

If they ask what other books are available, I tell them.

Some people still have an old-world expectation of business, I can't really do much to change that.

[fritz the cat]

I don't know if it's just me, but have you ever heard someone call it Maul-e-faux?

It's not the price, but the principle.

I don't push any books on them, I let them use my models and my books.

If they ask what other books are available, I tell them.

Some people still have an old-world expectation of business, I can't really do much to change that.

the principle...

most people in this hobby it seems come from GW products... 15 for a rulebook is insanely cheap by any companies standards.

As to the availability of an online pdf of the rules, seemingly only the smaller games have these, and if anyone has any real interest in the game they're buying a hard copy regardless of the cost.

[HaggisMcMutton]

First off, I think Malifaux is a great game, and I dont really 'hate' anything about it, just somethings annoy me.

I respectfully disagree with those that dont like how the negative flips and the jokers are handled, i think it leads to unpredicability and excitement that you can't get by rolling a d6.

In general, Neverborn annoy me. Most of their stuff is overpowered, although i wouldn't say it's somehow broken. Especially when learning the game, their tricks seem dirty, compared to someone playing a more striaghtforward crew, like from the Guild, the Viks, and Von Shill. Iv'e seen people use every dirty neverborn trick in the book, this side of the 'filth list' against a new player who's playing his 1st or 2nd game. In part it seems like the 'screw having fun i wanna win at all costs so I can stroke my fragile ego' players tend to lean towards playing Neverborn because it is a top tier faction (whether or not neverborn being 'broken' or superpowerful is real or just percieved to be). Regardless of the type of player who is playing Neverborn, IMHO alot of the times it is not fun to play against, independant of who wins. Maybe this is more of a criticism of certain types of players over criticism of the game itself, but 2 main things drew me away from warhammer 40k and towards this crazy new game called Malifaux. One being that it seemedlike a totally different play style (with cards instead of dice) then 40k, and also that it seemed more like a 'beer and pretzels' game where you can be competitive but its still fun. Opposed to 40k, where it devolves into more of a WAAC (win at all costs) type of game.

A great thing about Malifaux over, say 40k, is that it has a lower barrier to entry, both in cost and in the basic rules. And although it can be nice to have a rules Marshall who pays attention to the Malifaux community and can quickly respond to rules questions, (unlike in 40k were Games Workshop *might* release a FAQ in say, oh i dunno maybe the next few years) I agree with you guys that it can be a bit chaotic to find out what exactly the official ruling is.

Lelu/lelitu and the stitched annoy me lol, again I personally don't enjoy playing against them. I always like to mix it up and play a different list everytime/almost everytime, But its just too predictable to see overpowered models like Lelu and Lelitu being used every single time. Which one is it, the Stitched?, that can deny your opponent kill points towards the slaughter Strategy? Yeah, running 2 of them, thus denying your opponent even the opportunity to kill them so he can add them to his killed total is unfair. (This has NOT happened to me personally).

Book 2 in general seems overpowered in comparason to book 1, but so far it looks to me like book 3 is on par.

In conclusion, Malifaux still is kickass!

Edited December 15, 2011 by HaggisMcMutton

[Q'iq'el]

1. The Trump Cards aka Red and Black Joker.

These cards are cool but the rules allow them to trump flips when they shouldn't. I think they would be better played as 14 and 0 respectively and be cheatable. At this time a :-fate:-fate is better than a :-fate flip (and inverse for ) because the extra flip possibly generating a joker reverses the whole balance of the flip. I Hate that.

Yes, the flips are sometimes counter-intuitive. It is a big hit to your chance of flipping a high card when you move from straight flip to , but it is relatively small loss to move from to :-fate.

And yes, if you are desperate for Red Joker, it makes sense to cheat down to get more flips. But that's just a gamble - you still have only a very slim chance of getting the Joker you need...

But this is nowhere near claiming that a triple is actually better than a double flip!

Unless the Red Joker is the only card which would win you the duel, you are always worse off by having more negative flips. Your chance of beating your Target Number simply lowers and the higher chance of getting Red Joker does not outweigh it.

If you add to this that in combat the lower your result, the better it works for your opponent (as he gets better damage flip out of the duel), and I think it becomes pretty clear you don't want that higher chance for the Red Joker at such a cost, most of the time.

Last but not least, I find it fitting the game leaves desperate measures to a desperate player. Pull off a Red Joker out of a triple negative flip and you can smugly add a line about cornered enemy being the most dangerous one. The system gives us something more than just probability calculation - Malifaux' decision taking is more complex than dice gaming, more intricate and more rewarding.

I find it pretty brilliant, that the more desperate you get, the more you hang on to the hope of getting that one miracle Red Joker, the higher the chance of getting it (even if ever so slight) and the higher the chance of getting your hopes crushed by the Black Joker.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Akujie]

The Cover and Elevation rules. The whole measuring only horizontally thing and only counting cover when within 1" of it (but not if the other person is as well)...

they are massively counter intuitive.

It should be simplified down to "Is the line from your base to theirs obscured by anything? They get cover. Is the thing covering them hard? They get armour"

Love this Cover system, it allows you to be behind cover without giving the enemy cover from the wall you are using for cover

Suggestion: Allow you to replace 1 of the flipped cards as you would normally but you still must choose the lower of the cards. IE. Flip is 2,5,7,9. Normally you'd have to take the 2. But you could cheat out the 2 for a 6 and instead take the 5 as the lowest card. Brings a mechanical balance that is missing and a thing that I Hate. lol.

That is a really neat idea!

I will jump on the bandwagon of disliking faction to faction balance only because I am not sure if it is truley balanced or not, or what measure you can use for that. Lot of theoryfaux on it, but the possible combination of schemes/strats/ and minion choices makes it close to impossible to really prove if it is balanced or not; And the only measure I can really look at is how the tourny scene goes, which if you look at the top 10 placers of the larger tourneys out there, it doesn't support the idea that all the factions are balanced...or maybe that is just my perception of things <shrug>

[BlueStar86]

I find it pretty brilliant' date=' that the more desperate you get, the more you hang on to the hope of getting that one miracle Red Joker, the higher the chance of getting it (even if ever so slight) and the higher the chance of getting your hopes crushed by the Black Joker.[/quote']

Or doing what I have the misfortune of doing on a regular basis: flipping 3 11+ cards in a row. I'd like to have them at least somewhat staggered! Tired of wasting good cards on unimportant flips.

[Justin]

I hate that almost every single time I play, I'm teaching the game. And I'm not even a henchman.

[Thechosenone]

I love most of the game really. Blasts of course are really annoying.

The other thing i dislike is that, compared to companies like Games Workshop or Privateer Press, Wyrd has a way of writing some of its rules in an odd manner. Especially in the way a rule may try to refer to what models are targeted by effects. I know the above companies have their quirks too but Wyrd's rule writing is often not too clear with a single reading.

[i_was_like_you]

I hate that almost every single time I play, I'm teaching the game. And I'm not even a henchman.

I hear ya.

Not that I mind teaching the game. It's just that I can't really get into playing the crews I want to (read: probably some broken Neverborn list) because I'm trying to teach the basics without crushing a potential player's gaming spirit. Since most of the time I'm just teaching them at the beginner's level, how to shoot, move, and cheat fate, I don't have a chance to show them Strategies and Schemes. It's like every game is a showdown at high noon at the Malifaux Corral.

Okay, you learned how to use a crew and caught some of the main mistakes you made in tactics. Sure, I won, but you put up a fight. Next time we'll introduce Strategies and Schemes and see that winning isn't all about killing enemy models, as fun as that is. Sure, killing their models may be your Strategy or Scheme, or it may help you achieve it by killing their models, but it isn't the end all, be all of Malifaux. See ya next week.

[Kael Hate]

But this is nowhere near claiming that a triple is actually better than a double flip!

Example

A difference of 10 to hit your opponent after they have flipped for Defence. Percentages without Jokers

0.008963 :-fate:-fate

0.029131 :-fate

0.094675

0.307692 :+fate

0.520710

0.668184 :+fate

0.770281 :+fate:+fate

Assuming you have drawn 6 opening cards and flipped 1 for initiative. There are 47 cards remaining. 1 of which is the Red Joker and/or the Black Joker.

Hitting a Joker in 47 cards on 3 flips - 0.063830

Hitting a Joker in 47 cards on 4 flips - 0.085106

Difference Between 3 and 4 flips to hit Joker 0.021277

Difference Between 3 and 4 flips Percentages 0.020167

Chance to Succeed on :-fate Flip with Red Joker Possible 0.09296

Chance to Succeed on :-fate:-fate Flip with Red Joker Possible 0.09407

So if in this case its better for me to say a model is in cover and get that extra because it both gives a better chance to hit and reduces the number of cards in my deck so I have better knowledge of what is left to flip. Running a pessimistic game feels wrong to me but it is mathematically better.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Kael Hate

[i_was_like_you]

I absolutely hate the balance (or lack thereof) of a number of the Book 2 models. Some of the Minions are over the top in terms of abilities/power relative to their cost, and some of the Henchmen are a little potent (with one being kinda impotent.)

My biggest gripe, though, is how much the Book 2 Masters overshadow the Book 1 Masters. All of the Book 2 Masters have really strong synergy with their crews, and they have Minions that complement their game plan very well. The end results are Masters that are a league all of their own.

Not that you can't win with Book 1 Masters, and not that there aren't still some very powerful ones in that bunch. But the disparity between the two books feels pretty large, and its always a niggling frustration when I play the game.

When Wyrd decides to revisit the model rules (which I think needs to happen at some point,) I really hope they address how above-the-curve the Book 2 Masters are.

Exactly. When book 1 masters struggle to fill two stat card pages with spells and abilities while book 2 masters and henchmen often have two full pages of micro-font, and the spells and abilities tend to be flat out better, along with their entirely synergistic crew set ups, makes book 2 masters over the top in a lot of regards. Sure, we can, and still often do beat our opponents with book 1 masters, but they don't really compare to the Dreamer or Collodi or Colette in terms of raw speed and ability to achieve most strategies and schemes in the first couple of turns.

Oh, you're playing Colette and this isn't a tourney, so Schemes aren't unique. Guess you'll be getting two points for Power Ritual.

[tadaka]

So side question for all those who think Book one masters are not as good as book 2. Should old masters get upgraded or book 2 toned down?

[Kael Hate]

So side question for all those who think Book one masters are not as good as book 2. Should old masters get upgraded or book 2 toned down?

A bit of Both is my thought.

Dreamer needs a Handbrake.

Lady J needs a trick.

[i_was_like_you]

Example

A difference of 10 to hit your opponent after they have flipped for Defence. Percentages without Jokers

0.008963 :-fate:-fate

0.029131 :-fate

0.094675

0.307692 :+fate

0.520710

0.668184 :+fate

0.770281 :+fate:+fate

Assuming you have drawn 6 opening cards and flipped 1 for initiative. There are 47 cards remaining. 1 of which is the Red Joker and/or the Black Joker.

Hitting a Joker in 47 cards on 3 flips - 0.063830

Hitting a Joker in 47 cards on 4 flips - 0.085106

Difference Between 3 and 4 flips to hit Joker 0.021277

Difference Between 3 and 4 flips Percentages 0.020167

Chance to Succeed on :-fate Flip with Red Joker Possible 0.09296

Chance to Succeed on :-fate:-fate Flip with Red Joker Possible 0.09407

So if in this case its better for me to say a model is in cover and get that extra because it both gives a better chance to hit and reduces the number of cards in my deck so I have better knowledge of what is left to flip. Running a pessimistic game feels wrong to me but it is mathematically better.

I'm glad one of us has some statistical leanings. It is nice to see the cold, unfeeling numbers of fate that way, sometimes.

What the reality of the situation seems to be is that many players aren't good at shuffling cards. It takes 7 rifle shuffles for a new deck that is sorted by suit to become fully randomized (according to a stats book I had). Anything further shuffling than that tends to muddle the mix. Admittedly, I'm not the best rifle shuffler, as I don't bridge the cards, but I'm better at shuffling than most of the players I meet.

So, for a game that players are moving towards, at least partially, because of its novel mechanic of a fate deck and their frustration with dice rolling, most players don't consider honing their shuffling skills to be of any importance. I rarely see players even consider table shuffling their deck to try to break up clumps of high cards. Consider it: I've just flipped low, cheated high, flipped low, cheated high, and now it's all just clumped together in my discard pile. Or I know I saw three high cards in a row from any other set of flips. Maybe, just maybe, next time I have to shuffle my deck, I should give my deck a quick table shuffle and then three quick rifle shuffles to get the high cards separated from each other.

Maybe I should start bringing my card shuffling machines with me when I play. Pop in the deck and run it through. Could even use it as an extra piece of terrain. With as much time, money, and effort people put into painting their crews and basing them just right, what's another $5 - 10 for a card shuffler that might actually improve game play performance?

[i_was_like_you]

So side question for all those who think Book one masters are not as good as book 2. Should old masters get upgraded or book 2 toned down?

I think the masters themselves are mostly okay. It's the synergy that book 2's crews give them that seems to be what's tipping the scales. Sure, when they release new minions, they want them to be usable by a large number of players, but a few more minions with better specific synergies to book 1 masters would be nice.

Oh, look, we gave Seamus one more Belle, Nicodem gets Rafkin, here's one more Woe...

The handbrake for the Dreamer might just be taking the Nightmare characteristic off of Lelu and Lilitu. They're already Neverborn, so he can hire them anyways. Even with their high SS cost, he's likely to still receive his 5ss starting cache from Master of Dreams. Does he really need to be able to drop them anywhere on the board? Lure has an 18" range, isn't that good enough to get an enemy model close enough for Lelu to maul it? Leaving them as Nephilim doesn't do much one way or the other now that Nekima has already had her handbrake applied to her Nephilim Heart. Infinite Lure? Yeah, I hope you had fun with it while it lasted. Leaving them as Woes helps Pandora, but even if they weren't, she could still hire them for all of the same shenanigans.