Lilith needs help against Dreamer

[CommanderSasha]

Hi, I'm a new player, running Lilith; I'm playing 25SS games against other new players; my games against Lady J have been even, but against the Dreamer I am just hopeless.

My list:

Lilith, 3 tots, Mature, Cherub; plenty of models I could use as proxies, but I don't have Rising Powers, only the V2 PDFs, so only pre-rising power cards.

His list:

Dreamer/LCB, Teddy, 3 Stitched.

Today we played 2 games, both standard deploment, plenty of walls (complete Terraclips street set);

The first game was shared slaughter; I got tabled.

The second was shared Destroy Evidence; Dreamer cast "I can fly", moved 14" (2 AP), triggered All My Friends, unburied every other model within 6"(including LCB in B2B with neutral objective). LCB then auto-activated, and took that objective.

From that point on, and throughout the whole of the first game, I was trying to deal with a Deathstar where Teddy and LCB could eat anything that came close, and Gamble Your Life whittled away everything that tried to get near for a charge.

Ouch!

Am I just being incompetent, or is this a hard match-up? None of his models bestow Blood Counters, so I didn't get to grow, they don't get spattered by Black Blood, and Alluring doesn't work. Tots are useless, Lil and Mature are no match for LCB/Teddy when close together; killing Dreamer early won't work because it brings ALL is buried stuff on, immediately eating whatever killed the Dreamer.

Help please?!?

Thanks for any advice

[Koali]

Dreamer cast "I can fly", moved 14" (2 AP), triggered All My Friends, unburied every other model within 6"(including LCB in B2B with neutral objective). LCB then auto-activated, and took that objective.

That is not possible... to put on the Trigger the Dreanmer has to cast Frightning Dream... and thats a 1 AP Spell... since he doublewalked... he can not cast the spell...

[CommanderSasha]

I may have mis-remembered; may have only been 7'.

[Necromorph]

If it was a neutral objective on a standard sized table he could easily walk 7 and summon 6" out to get the neutral one, though perhaps not with lcb, any other model could do it though.

Lilith is rather straight forward and I feel like she's gonna have a lot of trouble with the dreamer regardless of player skill. Unfortunately I don't personally play or play against the dreamer often enough to give tactics with Lilith who I also don't own....yet.

[Insane_Prophet]

It's tough and I think the Dreamer's a pretty tough opponent in general, but here's some advice:

I'd make sure to hold at least one high card for Lilith (12-13) to be able cheat and Soulstone her defence if necessary for when Chompy Bits comes at her. Even with Onslaught and Melee expert, if you can ensure he misses that first attack he has to come at you with Paired CB 3, against a defense of 8. That should at least keep your master standing!

I find *if* (big if) you can kill the Dreamer early, that does help. Lilith really ought to able to defend herself (with her DF at least) and once Chompy can't bury himself he's in danger - he's not actually that durable. If you can use Lilith's speed to get to the Dreamer and kill him, then you should be able to control the game after that - with just LCB the Dreamer loses almost all of his mobility and tricks.

How many Soulstones are you taking? I'd take as many as possible.

Against the Stitched? Yeah, Stitched are real pain the neck... Look to make use of some high WP models of your own if possible.

Unless your strategy requires mobility I wouldn't take the Tots - go for something more durable - Waldgeist aren't bad for this if your main concern is physical damage.

I'd consider using Teddy - he's Hard to Wound 2 (so, takes time to kill) and Immune to Influence (so the Stitched aren't really a big concern any more).

If you haven't done so, read up on the Dreamer at the Pull My Finger Wiki and consider giving the "Dreaming in Malifaux" Gamers Lounge Podcast episode a listen - that should give you a good idea of things from the Dreamer's perspective and help you try and work out where you want to trip him up.

Depending on how tight your Terrain set up is, look at controlling places that limit where the Dreamer can place his models - if they won't fit, he can't drop them off.

Hope that helps somewhat.

[Calmdown]

Your main problem here stems from your model selection. He's using a book 2 masters and models (Stitched), you're using book 1 and a very non-optimal Lilith list.

First thing to be clear on - Lilith cannot beat Dreamer unless you are significantly better than the Dreamer player, or luck goes significantly in your favour, regardless of what models you use. She can't deal with him in any way consistently that is worth advising you of tactics on. Particularly if he runs Stitched, he avoids Lilith's biggest strength - her Df and trigger - and can blow her up with no problem.

The best advice I can give to you is to get ahold of book two models yourself. You'll redress the balance a lot by running book 2 models yourself, so get hold of some Lelu and Lilitu. Even if the Dreamer also runs these, there will be slightly less differential in your forces. You should also be running Primordial Magic in 100% of Lilith lists. Your card control with Rush + Arcane Reservoir is about the biggest standing advantage you have against Dreamer, and could maybe skew the luck in your direction.

It's tough. No two ways about it. Good luck

[CommanderSasha]

Thanks for the advice! I am new to the game, but an old 40K player, and so far have the "Stick to your favourite list" and "list building against a specific opponent is unsporting" mindsets! Thinking about it, the fact that you officially don't choose your crew until after you know the objectives turns that on its head!

I feel better knowing it's a bad match-up, and that also explains why my games against the Lady J starter set were balanced! Book 1!

I will have to get Rising Powers if I am to stand a chance, clearly, as my son just got Hoffman, and another buddy got Colette, if book 1 struggles against book 2 it's going to hurt!

Is there still a place for Lilith in a brave new Book 2 world? I have loved the mini from years before, and have loved her character from other books (Sandman/Lucifer, American Gods etc), and would hate to have to leave her at home. Maybe I'll just bring her to the games anyway, standing on the touchlines cheering her kids on, like a soccer mom. In a corset. With a dirty great sword.

Seriously though, with the majority of my (small) friendly gaming group running book 2, does my Lady J friend and myself need to move into the new era with different masters?

[Calmdown]

Is there still a place for Lilith in a brave new Book 2 world? I have loved the mini from years before, and have loved her character from other books (Sandman/Lucifer, American Gods etc), and would hate to have to leave her at home. Maybe I'll just bring her to the games anyway, standing on the touchlines cheering her kids on, like a soccer mom. In a corset. With a dirty great sword.

Seriously though, with the majority of my (small) friendly gaming group running book 2, does my Lady J friend and myself need to move into the new era with different masters?

It's not really *that* bad. As I said above, it really depends to a large extent on skill. However, the model choice obviously influences how much of a skill differential you need to be successful. In the case of Dreamer-Lilith this is a pretty big difference.

Don't get me wrong though, its not that book 1 doesn't compete with book 2, it's just that they don't in this case for masters. For example, two of the top 3 anti-Dreamer masters (in my opinion) are Lady J and Pandora. Additionally in Pandora's case, she is one of the best masters in the game still.

It's more of a compound thing and is just as related to minions/henchmen as it is to masters. Lady J gets better with Lucius (book 2), for example, since he can throw her into the enemy deployment zone on turn 1. Every faction gets better by a margin with its book 2 minions. For example, Lilith in the book 2 world looks something like this typically at 35ss:

Lilith

Primordial Magic

Doppelganger

2x Lelu

Lilitu

Terror Tot

That's a really strong list again lots of things out there, even against Book 2 masters. There are better as I've said, but it's strong, and you can see how it mixes both books. You can also see how Nephilim are retired in favour of the book 2 Lelu/Lilitu which are just flat better.

In summary I'd say break into book 2 and start picking up the stuff from it, for you and all your friends. The book one environment is pretty poor imho, the book 2 environment opens it up a lot, and book 3 is starting to do so more.

[Adran]

In a slightly less pessimistic outlook

The Dreamer is one of the most mobile masters, which allows him to get tough models where ever he wants. He is not unbeatable, but it can be hard work, especially when you don't know what he can do.

Some things you could have done include casting Transposition to get a big hitter into melee with Chompy or the Teddy ready to activate and rip them apart.

For example the cherub could companion with Lileth, Double walk to melee range with your target, Lileth activates, Brood mothers in your mature, walks forward (if needed) and then Tranpositions the Cherub and the Mature. The Mature will then activate and should rip apart a teddy in 1 activation (3 attacks), all without a response and from outside Gamble your life range.

There are some very good models in Books 2 and 3 which are well worth looking at. A purely book 1 crew can compete, but you are handicapping yourself by not having access to the whole range.

[Cunning]

The Dreamer is nails with any master, I've come close with Lilith a few times but never managed to beat him.

If you take the ganger against the Dreamer, try and use her straight away 1st turn (which you should win the initiative for with her) to get rid of her harmless. Against the Dreamer it's a liability. You need to charge across the table as fast as possible. If you have some lowish masks you can sprint the tot then transposition Lilith in with the totem.

The stitched are your biggest problem here, you're going to have to just keep away from them/keep some stones in reserve to prevent GYL.

Lilith is my favourite master but she has her limitations. Most book 2 masters are a problem for her and the Dreamer is at the top of that list.

[micahwc]

Really makes me want to play against the dreamer with Lillith now. Hmm.

I may be crazy, but are the stitched rare 2? I don't have a book with me now but I would swear they are rare 2.

[Cunning]

Rare 3

[micahwc]

Have Lilith bring her own stitched togethers. Fight gambling with gambling. Gamble your life is arguably the best ranged offensive spell the neverborn have.

Take the scheme where an enemy has to kill one of your models ("frame for murder" I think) on Lilith. Charge LCB and teddy as fast as possible. Gain victory points when they kill you, but don't die right away. Make them work for your victory points.

Edited October 31, 2011 by micahwc

[Sliver Chocobo]

You can't sorry

Well using Lilith list you can't, using a non-normal list you might be able

Think Waldgeist, possibly Jack Daw, models that can take a hit

[easternheretic]

I was into my 6th game of Lilith/Malifaux when I ran into the Dreamer. A complete newbie on his first game was looking for a game to learn the mechanics of the game and I was in the store that day so obliged.

I lost the match. It was difficult coming to grips with his bury, un-bury of the nightmares and daydreams. Coupled with his flying, it allowed the Dreamer to place his models where he wants them to be and take them out of harms way as well.

The gamble your life Stitch Together was hard on my models, and the paralyze trigger on a hit by Corpelius was harder still.

As I was fairly new at the game, I hadn't quite figured out Lilith then, and so I charged her very quickly forward and over extending her. That got her killed in short order.

I have since learned that as good as Lilith is as a beat stick, she is not the best at it, and can be taken out by a pure beat stick quite regularly if you're not careful.

What she excels at, is guerrilla warfare. She's fast, ignores most terrain for movement and charging and a lot of her crew are designed with this in mind as well. The young and mature Nephelim have the diving attack that ignores LOS and has a decent range of 9 to 10 inches plus melee expert.

Position the models well and pounce from unexpected angles that the opponent may have thought was blocked by terrain.

See if you can attack the daydreams and dreamer first. Its not going to happen often, but it is possible.

cheers!

[Shadowopal]

Thanks for the advice! I am new to the game, but an old 40K player, and so far have the "Stick to your favourite list" and "list building against a specific opponent is unsporting" mindsets! Thinking about it, the fact that you officially don't choose your crew until after you know the objectives turns that on its head!

This took a while for me to wrap my head around. But, the truth of it is, you know what faction your opponent is bringing to the table AND what the objective is AND you get to choose your strategies. I have won many games against the dreamer by forgetting the main objective and focusing on my strategies and denying him the main objective. A lot of players fight like hell to get the main objective and forget about their strategies until the end (especially new players).

As far as troop selection. I'd forget tots pick up a young neph. Or Lelu and lilitu. Those two are nasty. Waldgeists are fun too. Especially with imaginary forests. And then there is always the very tasty Nekima. She helps with the mobility your force needs against the dreamer.

[Cunning]

And then there is always the very tasty Nekima.

If the dreamer player has any sense he'll slingshot Chompy and kill Nekima easily first turn. For her points she's far too easy to kill. I don't like her in any game but against the Dreamer you're just throwing points away.

[micahwc]

What she excels at, is guerrilla warfare. She's fast, ignores most terrain for movement and charging and a lot of her crew are designed with this in mind as well. The young and mature Nephelim have the diving attack that ignores LOS and has a decent range of 9 to 10 inches plus melee expert.

cheers!

This + 1 million.

Attack with something else first, wait for it to get counter attacked, then pounce with Lilith.

[CommanderSasha]

Thanks for all the great replies, lots of good tactica there for me to learn!

A solution has presented itself: the friend with The Dreamer has just ordered himself the Ortegas, as the Lady J player and myself already had our crews before he bought LCB, so he has changed to a book 1 crew, at least until we're all a bit more experienced.

I am lucky to have such a friendly gaming group, particularly this guy.

Now I'm going to go and rip that silly hat off with my claws!

PS I probably won't, as whatever crew he uses, he's still a better gamer than me; at least this way I might get the odd win though!

[nurglez]

Hello there Mr Sasha, guess who...

I am the offending Dreamer player, Our group is still learning the ropes with this lovely game, remembering when to cheat fate and use soul stones is rather tricky for our 40k simplistic mindset, but we are getting there

He did try transitioning some of my models, but I generally resisted it. If he did run up and kill the dreamer, my crew pops out and LCB munches his face off.

I have purchased the Ortega box set, mainly due to the fact that Mr Sasha had all ready ordered Lillith before I then happened to choose a crew that nullifies quite a few of her advantages, DOH!

[Nagi21]

As the reigning Lillith player at my store I feel compelled to input on this. Personally I find that it is competitive but certainly more often than not feasible to beat the dreamer.

Most people seem to think Lilith is a veritable beatstick whose basic premise revolves around the alpha strike... while this works against a number of masters it is not her true strength. Lilith's strategy revolves around board control, and not the type like the dreamer has. While the dreamer can essentially "read and react" to anything thrown his way, Lilith and her crew use their insane speed to position themselves to either draw the charge and still be able to pull off the counter-charge or bring multiple charges to bear at once. Against the dreamer these are both very useful as in the first case you catch the rat out of it's hole so to speak (which as it's been said, once they're un-buried, the dreamer's minions are relatively weak), and in the second you force him/her to either split his forces or (more often than not) overpursue on the most valuable target leaving you open to bring the guns to bear so to speak.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the pure nephilim to the lelu/lillitu combo overall. Lelu is a hammer and lillitu is very tricky to work with, but the mobility of the hammer is far too low to even compete with the dreamer's speed, and lillitu is not going to be very useful against buried models and such. With a 5/8 for tots upto a 6/10 for a mature, you maintain the speed that you'll need to maintain the board control style lilith is best at, not to mention all the terrain nullifying effects and los-ignoring abilities.

With all that said there's two things I need to mention. First is as Lilith, you win and lose by initiative. I don't simply mean the flip to start the turn, but overall. If you get charged before you're in position, or get a vital model killed before you need it, you will lose. Once you lose the upper hand with Lil against the better crews (Dreamer, Zoraida, Colette, Seamus, Kirai, Teena, etc.), you won't be getting it back... and at that point you start praying.

Second is that this information is from mostly personal experience, which can be skewed by my local meta. While I preach all this, I have been told to have "ungodly" board control skills so for everyone out there don't expect to pick up Lil, use a few tricks to move some stuff around, and beat anything you play. You need to know your movement ranges, what can and can't cut what off, where you need to go, where your opponent needs to go, how fast he can get there, how he can get there, etc. for a start. People say Lil is the most straightforward neverborn master if not in the game. While she has very few "tricks" she's far from straightforward. Indeed she is probably the most difficult to truly master on that next level, since playing to her inner strengths is essentially playing a game of chess. One wrong move against an excellent player and you have nowhere to go, but make no mistakes (and avoid 3 straight black jokers...) and you'll win 95% of the time (even against the Dreamer).

PS: I don't get the horrible talk about the dreamer... he's fairly easy. It's Zoraida that's a pain in the ^%ing ass...

[Oshova]

PS: I don't get the horrible talk about the dreamer... he's fairly easy. It's Zoraida that's a pain in the ^%ing ass...

Yes Zoraida is a pain, but The Dreamer is equally good. If you are winning 95% of your Lilith games against The Dreamer, then your natural skill must be higher than your opponents. If they were playing optimal lists with The Dreamer, then your win % would be much lower.

Are they using The Twins? Are they using Daydreams? Are they using Hit and Run tactics in 1 activation?

If you are using mainly Nephilim, then you will have a low model count (ignoring Tots). That SHOULD make life easy for The Dreamer player, as they can just pick off the Matures with Chompy (1 a turn), and you get no response to it. Ideally this would take 2 Daydreams and Dreamer/LCB. That leaves the rest of the crew to get objectives, or pick off Tots going for your objectives (as they have no other use). Using 2 Lelus and 1 Lilitu, gives you models that are harder to kill than Matures, and still pack a hefty punch. Also, that is 3 models for the price of 2, increasing your model count.

[Nagi21]

Yes Zoraida is a pain, but The Dreamer is equally good. If you are winning 95% of your Lilith games against The Dreamer, then your natural skill must be higher than your opponents. If they were playing optimal lists with The Dreamer, then your win % would be much lower.

Are they using The Twins? Are they using Daydreams? Are they using Hit and Run tactics in 1 activation?

If you are using mainly Nephilim, then you will have a low model count (ignoring Tots). That SHOULD make life easy for The Dreamer player, as they can just pick off the Matures with Chompy (1 a turn), and you get no response to it. Ideally this would take 2 Daydreams and Dreamer/LCB. That leaves the rest of the crew to get objectives, or pick off Tots going for your objectives (as they have no other use). Using 2 Lelus and 1 Lilitu, gives you models that are harder to kill than Matures, and still pack a hefty punch. Also, that is 3 models for the price of 2, increasing your model count.

You can't ignore tots because of the type of game malifaux is. Unless you have to hold a specific point all game (which while there are those you should avoid them as a Lilith player), the tots are extremely important as they can pick off daydreams quickly and while they will likely die it's a 3-point model. The other reason is that they're significant, which again is outrageous for 3 points. Also figure this, two lilu's and a lilitu is 21 points... for that I can either get two matures or three youngin's, the latter of which offer more mobility and just as much punch if not more with the right cards. While the twins are good with Lil, the lack of mobility lets a good dreamer player dictate the pace of the game, which any idiot knows is just plain suicide in a speed based crew.

You will be outnumbered against the dreamer come hell or high water with the twins or nephilim, make peace with that fact. It's all about target priority and acceptable losses. Am I saying only use nephilim? No, I'm saying that forgoing them for the twins (which are good but not the be all end all, especially with Lil') is trying to fit the square peg in the round hole with a sledgehammer. Sure you'll get it in there... but it ain't gonna work like it should.

[micahwc]

Lilith versus the Ortega's probably won't be much easier, though it should be really close. Also, transposition should be used the majority of the time on your own minions. It has a high casting cost and it sucks when it is resisted.

When I started playing Lilith I tried to transpose as much as possible. Now I regard it as an option to keep in the back of my mind, but I try not to need it. Of course, I started Lilith when she could still transpose herself for 1 ap and then spend 2 ap attacking whatever she ended up next to.

Remember that Lilith can target without LOS and that she has a 2 inch reach with her great sword. You are allowed to attack through walls that are thinner than 2 inches. As cheap as this sounds, I do not believe it has ever been changed.

Against the dreamer I think I would stay away from higher cost models and take more tots/young/waldgeists. Since this is a difficult fight I do not think that a grow list would be out of the question.

Edited December 30, 2011 by micahwc

[Oshova]

You can't ignore tots because of the type of game malifaux is. Unless you have to hold a specific point all game (which while there are those you should avoid them as a Lilith player), the tots are extremely important as they can pick off daydreams quickly and while they will likely die it's a 3-point model. The other reason is that they're significant, which again is outrageous for 3 points. Also figure this, two lilu's and a lilitu is 21 points... for that I can either get two matures or three youngin's, the latter of which offer more mobility and just as much punch if not more with the right cards. While the twins are good with Lil, the lack of mobility lets a good dreamer player dictate the pace of the game, which any idiot knows is just plain suicide in a speed based crew.

You will be outnumbered against the dreamer come hell or high water with the twins or nephilim, make peace with that fact. It's all about target priority and acceptable losses. Am I saying only use nephilim? No, I'm saying that forgoing them for the twins (which are good but not the be all end all, especially with Lil') is trying to fit the square peg in the round hole with a sledgehammer. Sure you'll get it in there... but it ain't gonna work like it should.

I didn't say to ignore the Tots, I said to take them out to deny Lilith objectives. I was more making the point that just the masters and totems can deal with your hard hitters, leaving the rest of the crew to deal with keeping you off objectives and achieving their own. I understand that Tots are good objective grabbers, and I think they are a good thing to take. But I'm just not a big fan of Matures, if your determined to stick with Nephs then take Youngs as they are better in my opinion, but for me 3 Twins are better than 3 Youngs 9 times out of 10.

My list against Dreamer would probably be:

Lilith

Primordial Magic

3 Tots

2 Lelus

Lilitu

Cache of 6 SS

That way you've got your Tots for objectives, Lelus as Beatsticks, Lilitu to manipulate enemy models, and Lilith to mop up the rest.

Against the dreamer I think I would stay away from higher cost models and take more tots/young/waldgeists. Since this is a difficult fight I do not think that a grow list would be out of the question.

Trying to out activate The Dreamer is hard work, but can be well worth it, you just need to make sure you have more than just Lilith for hitting them back when they jump on you. And try to place your models to protect the big hitters from 1 activation hit and run attacks by Dreamer/LCB/Daydreams.

Your other idea about using a grow list would be a bad choice in my eyes. You don't have the time to sit around growing as Dreamer can jump on you in 1 turn, take out Nekima or Lilith, and then you're left with nothing to hit back with.