Malifaux Tier/Balance Discussion

[thaehl]

Let me first say this is in no way me bashing or complaining about balance issues in the game itself, I will still claim that Malifaux is one of the more balanced miniature games out there. But on the same token I do feel from my personal Experiences that some masters just seem to, well outclass others in game play. I dont know if tiers have truly been discussed in detail on the forums and I would like to hear feedback from other players on what they feel are more and less powerful masters. For the purposes of this discussion I will be rating each master with the crew they are obviously meant to be played with (Som'er and Gemlins, Hamelin and rats, Ramos and steampunk arachnids, and the like) I will write out a five tier system:

Tier 1: Cream of the crop some of the strongest crews in the game, some would say too strong, winning most games and just overall unfair in a plethora of ways.

Tier 2: Strong masters just above average, capable of amazing things just, not all the time.

Tier 3: Perfectly balanced masters, not weak and not overwhelming.

Tier 4: Masters that seem to just need a bit of a push, just shy of a full deck.

Tier 5: Underwhelming, these masters arent just a few cards shy of a full deck but they seem to be missing a full suit or two.

Tier 1: Hamelin the Plagued, Perdita, The Dreamer

Tier 2:Zoraida, Leveticus, Pandora, Mc'Mourning, Som'er Teeth Jones, Colette,

Tier 3: The Victorias, Lilith, Nicodem, Kirai, Seamus, Ramos, Hoffman, Lady Justice, Sonia Criid,

Tier 4: Rasputina,

Tier 5: Marcus,

So tell me what you think, I will revise my list if I see proof to your persuasions. As always much love -T

Edited October 27, 2011 by thaehl
Some have convinced me that Colette is more powerful than I originally game her credit for, my apologies Arcanists.

[dsmiles]

Well, Marcus is in the right spot, but Nicodem should probably jump down a slot, IMO.

[thaehl]

Possibly old Nicodem has a lot of little tricks that I feel put him just above average, his ability to summon almost any undead makes him powerfully utilitarian. true his melee weapon is really weak, but i dont feel he needs one, why would you say he belongs in three? I do agree he is on the cusp.

[Tiny]

You havent said what you're basing it off. Is this in a faction v faction situation and you choose the master. Or master v master, if its master v master hamelin definitely shouldnt be that high, he has a lot of terrible match ups in terms of strategies.

[Stern]

honestly everyone has their opinions of tiers, I for example would class everything much differently. (every master can in your tier 2 if you build the list right) Also with the ability to adjust your own crew to match enemy faction and strategies and schemes you shouldn't have the issue of falling say 4 tiers below your opponent for a strategy.

I can only see this being effective in a fixed master event. in which case I would tier them in this way, I also included henchmen (assuming the player takes a 'standard' list and each player is of the same ability)

Tier 1: Hamelin the Plagued, The Dreamer, Kirai

Tier 2: Zoraida, Pandora, Colette, Collodi, Kaeris

Tier 3: Mc'Mourning, Lilith, The Victorias, Perdita, Leveticus, Seamus, Lady Justice, Sonia Criid, Marcus, Lucius, Ophelia, Von Schill

Tier 4: Ramos, Nicodem, Hoffman, Molly

Tier 5: Rasputina, Som'er Teeth Jones

of course this is my opinion based on the players over here... and it is very different to your list.

[thaehl]

To me this is just on a general Crew versus Crew scenario, Ive played both with and against most of the crews, I've observed every crew in action on a number of occasions, I feel this is where the crews rest on an average scrap match up.

[Borzag]

Swap Pandora & Nico.

Swap Dreamer & Som'Er.

Swap McMouring with the Viks.

REASONING:

Agree, Nico's a utility piece, but he's a utility piece reliant on his crew and the player's control hand. The amount of times I haven't raised dead because I haven't had the Crows, or have been too far away to bolster the crew (with no corpse counters to make things out of to help) make him a bit of a muppet in scenario play. Pandora on the other hand can zip around the board inflicting death by a thousand cuts. Combine that with all the Wp tricks the Neverborn can get up to and you have a good scenario & bash master.

Som'Er.... really? You must have a damn good Gremlin player in your meta. Yes the card control is nice, but once the skeeters & Whisperers are gone the Hog Boss has to get in your face, which is where he doesn't want to be. They're great for a player that knows what they're doing, but by that token so is pretty much anything else. Dreamer... Ok NOW he can probably stay in tier 2. But until recently I'd say a firm Tier 1 all the way.

VIKS: Have synergy with themselves, with Ronin if you're willing to sack them to keep your opponent on their toes. That's it. McM on the other hand, while not having all of Nico's toys, just has more long-term utility due to how easily he can get body parts over corpse coutners. Combine that with his speed and the crew that he can build to work with him and you have a serious player.

My 2SS.

Cheers!

Borzag

[dsmiles]

You havent said what you're basing it off. Is this in a faction v faction situation and you choose the master. Or master v master, if its master v master hamelin definitely shouldnt be that high, he has a lot of terrible match ups in terms of strategies.

If it's geared like the DnD class tier system, it's based on individual versatility of the masters with no outside influences.

Of course, talking about tiers on a DnD forum usually brings out the worst in forum members, so...yeah...I see this ending poorly for all of us.

[thaehl]

honestly everyone has their opinions of tiers, I for example would class everything much differently. (every master can in your tier 2 if you build the list right) Also with the ability to adjust your own crew to match enemy faction and strategies and schemes you shouldn't have the issue of falling say 4 tiers below your opponent for a strategy.

I can only see this being effective in a fixed master event. in which case I would tier them in this way, I also included henchmen (assuming the player takes a 'standard' list and each player is of the same ability)

Tier 1: Hamelin the Plagued, The Dreamer, Kirai

Tier 2: Zoraida, Pandora, Colette, Collodi, Kaeris

Tier 3: Mc'Mourning, Lilith, The Victorias, Perdita, Leveticus, Seamus, Lady Justice, Sonia Criid, Marcus, Lucius, Ophelia, Von Schill

Tier 4: Ramos, Nicodem, Hoffman, Molly

Tier 5: Rasputina, Som'er Teeth Jones

of course this is my opinion based on the players over here... and it is very different to your list.

I think a lot of what we chose are similar and in many ways different as well, I feel that Som'er at tier 5 is a gross mis-understanding of the master as a whole, a master with the ability to heal without a spell, Multiply his crew, as well as force an opponent to discard their entire hand without so much as a resist flip is quite the foe to face, not to mention he out-activates almost any master out there.

In my humble opinion I feel the Arcanists are sadly the most under powered faction, which is sad I like their fluff, they just dont seem to shine.

[thaehl]

If it's geared like the DnD class tier system, it's based on individual versatility of the masters with no outside influences.

Of course, talking about tiers on a DnD forum usually brings out the worst in forum members, so...yeah...I see this ending poorly for all of us.

Yep like a DnD tier discussion, true these usually end poorly but I always learn something from them. : ) so ill try to keep it chill in here as best i can.

[thaehl]

Swap Pandora & Nico.

Swap Dreamer & Som'Er.

Swap McMouring with the Viks.

REASONING:

Agree, Nico's a utility piece, but he's a utility piece reliant on his crew and the player's control hand. The amount of times I haven't raised dead because I haven't had the Crows, or have been too far away to bolster the crew (with no corpse counters to make things out of to help) make him a bit of a muppet in scenario play. Pandora on the other hand can zip around the board inflicting death by a thousand cuts. Combine that with all the Wp tricks the Neverborn can get up to and you have a good scenario & bash master.

Som'Er.... really? You must have a damn good Gremlin player in your meta. Yes the card control is nice, but once the skeeters & Whisperers are gone the Hog Boss has to get in your face, which is where he doesn't want to be. They're great for a player that knows what they're doing, but by that token so is pretty much anything else. Dreamer... Ok NOW he can probably stay in tier 2. But until recently I'd say a firm Tier 1 all the way.

VIKS: Have synergy with themselves, with Ronin if you're willing to sack them to keep your opponent on their toes. That's it. McM on the other hand, while not having all of Nico's toys, just has more long-term utility due to how easily he can get body parts over corpse coutners. Combine that with his speed and the crew that he can build to work with him and you have a serious player.

My 2SS.

Cheers!

Borzag

I find myself agreeing with your post and the post of others and have made the proper changes : ) thanks alot

[Stern]

I think the arcanists are by far one of the best factions, colette has the best movement abilities in the game, and can perform alpha stikes almost as godd as chompy does. Kaeris has access to m&sU assests and members which allows her to utilise so many different options, Marcus can take any beast and any arcanist model and works with pretty much every merc. so has the flexibility to counter all, ramos however if you play his summon spider mode he doesn't perform as does rasputina.

again it comes down to how each player plays the game... I find everything to be balanced perfectly if you built your lists right for the scenario

for me I find that the neverborn faction has the upper hand as a faction, followed by everybody else.

[thaehl]

I think the arcanists are by far one of the best factions, colette has the best movement abilities in the game, and can perform alpha stikes almost as godd as chompy does. Kaeris has access to m&sU assests and members which allows her to utilise so many different options, Marcus can take any beast and any arcanist model and works with pretty much every merc. so has the flexibility to counter all, ramos however if you play his summon spider mode he doesn't perform as does rasputina.

again it comes down to how each player plays the game... I find everything to be balanced perfectly if you built your lists right for the scenario

for me I find that the neverborn faction has the upper hand as a faction, followed by everybody else.

I can agree with the idea that the Neverborn always seen to have an edge, but when I started the thread i said that this is assuming you are using the basic list for that Master, assume Marcus is using Myranda and beasts, and that Lilith is using Nephs. so on and so forth, I think many would agree with me on my decision to place Marcus where he is, I like the character in the book I like his whole flavor, it just seems his game play is easily out shined. True, Kaeris may be good, but I'm just talking master to master right now. I do thank you for your input though, If more come in and suggest Marcus needs to be moved up I will do so, this is just how I have observed him in an average game.

[ukrocky]

Tier 5: Marcus,

Lol. Just lol.

[osoi]

The problem with assuming the use of 'basic lists' for masters is that its flawed, there is no one list I will use for any master that I play that I am confident will do well at every strat and scheme and up against every other faction.

The easiest example I have is the use of an Onryo in a Seamus crew, its an effective fit that shores up a few of his weaknesses but you would never see it in a 'basic' or themed list. Themed lists are great but if you want to get the most out of each and every master you will go outside of these types of lists.

being able to get somewhere easily is generally what wins you strategies so masters with speed, board control etc are those that I would rate higher.

[thaehl]

to where I agree with you osoi on 90% of occasions people will play with lists that arent "fluff friendly" many do, simply because it works, yes lists like "filth" that play Nekima with Pandora make little sense flavor wise they are quite effective, but most players I've observed will for the most part play crews that operate with fluff because the game rewards it. "Alp Bombs" for instance are both fluff friendly and fierce, secondly I feel that most Lady Justice crews will happily run death marshalls, etc. Yes yes I do agree, I dont often run juju with big Z, though many would happily run fluff friendly crews.

[Adran]

In my reading of the Fluff Pandora is the most likely Nerverborn Master that Nekima would work with. She hates her little sister, Zoraida isn't a proper Neverborn, and no one seems quite sure what Nytime is up to.

Describing a fluff list is much more complicated than going, Its a nephlim, it goes with Lileth.

After all, in the fluff there is no connection between Molly and a rogue necromancy, but it is in her starter box.

I don't thinbk any of the recent changes have had an effect on the top Dreamer players. He is in the top tier and should stay there.

Marcus has such a huge choice of Minions he can do almost anything. Even if you limited him to just Beasts he can create lists to cover all bases. he is a hard master to get good with, but a good Marcus player can compete at least tier 3 if not 2.

Personally I don't think any of the masters reach Tier 5.

I Find Rasputina, Ramos and Nicodem struggle because of their slow movement, so I would probably put them at 4. Colette needs to be at at least tier 2.

[CannonFodder]

My interpretation (THIS IS OPINION)

Tier 1: Perdita, The Dreamer, Pandora

Tier 2: Zoraida, Mc'Mourning, Colette, Kirai, Hamelin the Plagued

Tier 3: The Victorias, Lilith, Nicodem, Seamus, Ramos, Hoffman, Lady Justice, Sonia Criid, Rasputina , Leveticus, Ophelia

Tier 4: Som'er Teeth Jones, Marcus

I put Levi on T3 because I find he is hard to kill, but as long as you choose not to kill him his crew is not a huge threat. I just avoid him and kill everything else. If he over reaches I can find away to take him out. My Collette Usually has no problem.

Move Pandora to T1, because she completely changes the rules of the game and can bring a devastating crew. Especially with the Doppelgänger.

Ophelia is T3, and Som'er T4, even though Sum'er can bring her crew, but I find the extra Henchman bonus with Gremelins really good, and Ophelia hurts when not a leader.

I still have not seen much McM so I left him T2, but I need really see him in action to rank him.

I left Zoraida T2, but herself is not that strong, but considering Obey and ability to bring lots of options, Worth keeping there.

[Dustcrusher]

D&D tier discussions are bad? Go check out a fighting game forum tier discussion. Those people take Street Fighter way too seriously.

Generally I feel the Neverborn have a small edge over the other factions- the other factions' masters have fairly pronounced strengths and weaknesses, and the Neverborn seem to only be slightly more fragile on average.

Tier listings in Malifaux are going to be way more subjective than they normally would be. We have more than 3 possible scenarios (heh) and pre-match crew building means we aren't automatically stuck with a bad matchup in most cases (Ophelia vs. Hamelin was a notable exception- it will be interesting to see how Lenny and McTavish change this).

I'd also argue that ease of play influences perception. The Guild are pretty awesome because we're still new and they are largely straightforward to play. Our local meta is Nicodem & Rasputina (mine), Colette, and the Ladies of the Guild, with the Dreamer, Hamelin, and possibly Seamus on the way. Once we get better I suspect the Guild won't seem as powerful.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Dustcrusher
browser snafu

[Calmdown]

Tier list is so off it makes my head spin! A lot of people's tier lists are coloured by local players rather than the actuality of the situation. For example, I gather there's some good players playing Perdita in the US, against players a lot less skilled than themselves. It doesn't mean Perdita is good.

Also, Tier lists that go beyond 3 'real' Tiers have too much granularity. In reality the game is balanced enough, with enough luck and enough variance based on terrain and objectives, that you're either:

Tier 1) The best crews

Tier 1.5) Will have an easier time against Tier 2 crews, but still struggle just as much with Tier 1 crews

Tier 2) Crews that can beat eachother, but will always have a hard time against Tier 1

Tier 3) Crews that will almost always lose to crews not in Tier 3

Tier Dreamer: The Dreamer

Tier 1: Hamelin, Kirai, Colette

Tier 1.5: Pandora, [Collodi] (arguably Zoraida)

Tier 2: Everything else

Tier 3: Nicodem, Rasputina, Ramos, Som'er, [Molly, Lucius]

Note that these are definitely going to change as Avatars become more widespread. At a guess, Ramos will shoot up to tier 1.5, Sonnia to 1.5, Zoraida to 1.5, McMourning possibly up to 1.5.

[thaehl]

Tier Dreamer: The Dreamer

LOL! Im in no way laughing at the suggestion, the Dreamer is wildly powerful, just mind numbing at times, I will agree. I feel Hamelin (in my opinion) is far more powerful in every list that is not "alp bomb".

[CannonFodder]

LOL! Im in no way laughing at the suggestion, the Dreamer is wildly powerful, just mind numbing at times, I will agree. I feel Hamelin (in my opinion) is far more powerful in every list that is not "alp bomb".

Strong yes, but if you play patiently and not go offensively, prepare to grab objectives at the right time he's beatable.

[sephiroa]

Tier list is so off it makes my head spin! A lot of people's tier lists are coloured by local players rather than the actuality of the situation. For example, I gather there's some good players playing Perdita in the US, against players a lot less skilled than themselves. It doesn't mean Perdita is good.

Also, Tier lists that go beyond 3 'real' Tiers have too much granularity. In reality the game is balanced enough, with enough luck and enough variance based on terrain and objectives, that you're either:

Tier 1) The best crews

Tier 1.5) Will have an easier time against Tier 2 crews, but still struggle just as much with Tier 1 crews

Tier 2) Crews that can beat eachother, but will always have a hard time against Tier 1

Tier 3) Crews that will almost always lose to crews not in Tier 3

Tier Dreamer: The Dreamer

Tier 1: Hamelin, Kirai, Colette

Tier 1.5: Pandora, [Collodi] (arguably Zoraida)

Tier 2: Everything else

Tier 3: Nicodem, Rasputina, Ramos, Som'er, [Molly, Lucius]

Note that these are definitely going to change as Avatars become more widespread. At a guess, Ramos will shoot up to tier 1.5, Sonnia to 1.5, Zoraida to 1.5, McMourning possibly up to 1.5.

jup, i agree with everyhting, I'm not sure wether rasputina is tier 3, she is more a tier 2 IMO (general) when i play with her, she becomes 1.5, i "CAN" defeat hamelin with her and kirai as well. but to do a tie against lucius or loose against sonnia is possible as well, so i would say 2,

i believe sometimes collodi is a very close tier 1 at some points, destroy the evidence,,

[Inquisitor Wall]

I am having a bit of trouble with the tiering (not actually a word) of masters, as in the right hands I have seen masters played very well, and so many of the masters have different play styles. Sure some are much easier to play and be effective with, but when played right and in the proper scenario most masters seem pretty effective.

With a play style so much different than other miniature games, I have certainly not seen a clear tiering of masters. I would agree with the Dreamer being more powerful than others, but that case seems to be more of a single master.

[Issalbotproto]

I am having a bit of trouble with the tiering (not actually a word) of masters, as in the right hands I have seen masters played very well, and so many of the masters have different play styles. Sure some are much easier to play and be effective with, but when played right and in the proper scenario most masters seem pretty effective.

With a play style so much different than other miniature games, I have certainly not seen a clear tiering of masters. I would agree with the Dreamer being more powerful than others, but that case seems to be more of a single master.

I agree, this game is not so simple to tier as say the most common tiered system that is fighting games, there's far too many variables to create a compiled best to worst list. there are simply masters recognizable as good (some say OP which I hate to hear) and those that are considered lack luster.

Dreamer may be excellent, but I've proven I'm terrible with him But I can really whale on people with Marcus