DaLoon Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 So recently I've been inspired to build a proxy for the little old spider lady using Freebooter Miniatures 'Undead Lady', a rotten belle and my meager green stuff talent. I used her this last weekend at a local tourney and was having trouble getting much out of her for a rather costly 9ss model. She seemed painfully slow if she stopped to make scrap tokens and/or wicked dolls. She was never in a position to summon the Teddy due to all the scrap/corpse tokens being on the other half of the board. And finally, when the action did finally reach her, she has a defense of 4 with no triggers and frankly no real protection other than her terrifying... I dunno, I guess she just felt a bit underwhelming to me for such a big chunk of soul stones. My question is this... has anyone else been using her to any success? I'd love to hear some of the uses/ideas that the community has come up with to get the most out of her. She has such an AMAZING fluff/feel to her, and I really want to make her a big part of my Collodi crew. Help a brother out? -Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) So recently I've been inspired to build a proxy for the little old spider lady using Freebooter Miniatures 'Undead Lady', a rotten belle and my meager green stuff talent. I used her this last weekend at a local tourney and was having trouble getting much out of her for a rather costly 9ss model. She seemed painfully slow if she stopped to make scrap tokens and/or wicked dolls. She was never in a position to summon the Teddy due to all the scrap/corpse tokens being on the other half of the board. And finally, when the action did finally reach her, she has a defense of 4 with no triggers and frankly no real protection other than her terrifying... I dunno, I guess she just felt a bit underwhelming to me for such a big chunk of soul stones. My question is this... has anyone else been using her to any success? I'd love to hear some of the uses/ideas that the community has come up with to get the most out of her. She has such an AMAZING fluff/feel to her, and I really want to make her a big part of my Collodi crew. Help a brother out? -Dan Yup her speed and horrid Df make her hard to use. I've not a lot of specific advice for her yet as I'm still trying to work out the very same things myself. I've had moderate success with her with the Dreamer because of his bury mechnics, but it still runs into issues of needing to have her on the board. She is the only model in the crew that will cause the Scrap and Corpses to drop so she has to be on the board at the right time yet not to keep her safe and move her up field.... Otherwise I'm in the same situation, she is to slow in many ways and honestly... it seems like you have to play her unlike a NB model. Most NB crews go on the offensive right from the start, we're just simply faster then most crews and we are usualy melee focused. But with the Weaver, it's almost like you need to play like Guild. Move slower, stay together more often and fight as a combined group rather then various hit and run tactics. So while I love this model, I admit Im still not able to find a way to get the 9ss out of it. Model generation, while cool, is not really much of a NB thing and it feels and plays outside of the rest of our meta. So it's one of those square pegs in a round hole I think.... but time will tell. There are a few ideas I've got but I don't want to give you false advice, so I need to try them first. I'll stop back when I have something more useful about it, but your not the only one having issues with it by far. I've got about a dozen requests for articles on the Wiki for her, people don't seem to be able to figure her out. But for now, post up what you've figured out and lets get a little collaberation going on this. Edited October 17, 2011 by karn987 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneWhoFell Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I don't have my book in front of me, but how is her Wp? If you ran her in a crew with Z, you could use the double Obey (Z and the Voodoo doll) to move her out on the board turn two.... that's what? 8"? Then when she activates, you get another 4-8"? That gets her almost half way across the board by the end of turn two... Hmmm... I don't know about the Squishy factor... There has to be <something> that would buff her up... Again, I don't have my books with me... so I don't have any stats for anything. But the Squishy Factor is my biggest problem with NB... I run Z right now (recently acquired 'Dora). Figuring out how to keep your models from going SQUISH is difficult, and I can give no adivce on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geckilian Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'll just echo pretty much everything here from both of you - the tiume I used her she was immensely slow, never got close to even my own scrap tokens caused by dead marionettes, and dropped like a sack of bricks the moment something attacked her. Again I love her fluff and I'm reasonably pleased with my conversion of her, but I really can't see me taking her... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) What it comes down to for me is: she's a utility model. Whether 9 points of utility is worthwhile or not is your choice, much like many other utility models. Her main use as I see it is that she duplicates Collodi functionality, which is often good. She can be an extra Breathe Life, or she can be your doll-maker (something which Collodi often struggles for AP to do; when I play vs Collodi, if I can put him in a position where he has to construct a doll, it normally means I'm in a good position as he's not giving his dolls the AP they require to be good). Outside of that, she's has good offensive combat stats with a good number of wounds and good terrifying rating, she's a reasonably fast (+arachnid) significant model, she gives you cards, and she generates scrap counters from your hand trash. On the downside, she will die if she gets focused too much, low Df and no particular defensive abilities if terrifying doesnt work (which it wont, against most crews, as usual). She can't charge if she *does* need to go hit something and has no extra AP (big issue) I generally dislike utility models (eg, things like Datsue-Ba just dont do enough for their points) but some of them really do have enough utility to make them worth it (eg, librarian in a Von Schill list but not when hired for extra points outside of it). I think she definitely could be worth her points, especially in a Collodi list since he brings so many extra SS to the table. She's going to very much be a matter of testing out but I think the prognosis is good to very good. Edited October 17, 2011 by Calmdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think the weaver works best with Zoraida, not for the movement factor, though that helps, but Turn one, create a counter, move, Obey, create a counter (once per activation not per turn) by now your probably out of cards for doing it a third time, so you can use Zoraidas Obey on the linked model to do what she normally does, or Obey her to move again. But when i used her, against McMourning, with the dreamer, i created 3 Teddys and had counters left over, without berrying her. All i found with her is if against a big ranged crew, you need to make sure to hide a lot, but so far i like her, not found any issues with her my self yet, i just walked her forward once and made a counter, until i could get compy to kill something close enough to her. Remembering arachnid the cover is not really an issue as it does not slow her down. (Have also played her in brawls against Collette and Tina a few times, less effective as we ran out of time, with Zoraida, though she wasn't focusing on the weaver so (: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) You can get a Teddy out turn one with Big Z - 1. Activate Z and summon a voodoo doll, casting expert to obey Weaver Widow to ditch two cards for a scrap counter 2. Activate Voodoo Doll and obey WW to ditch two cards and summon a scrap counter 3. Kill the voodoo doll with something which drops a scrap counter (as you now have a scavenger in your crew ) 4. Activate the WW and ditch last two cards for a scrap counter, move to pick up the Voodoo's counter, (0) action for a Teddy That's 6 cards traded in turn one for a teddy - all with no loss of models you paid SS for (i.e Desp Mercs) Also, as you're relying on not needing to cheat, you could add the Arcane Effigy for 4ss to the crew - extra control card in your hand (save the highest to make sure the voodoo can cast obey or so WW gets its summon off) and an extra cast for Z if she needs it. You can also kill the voodoo with the effigy's 2AP as it's ca->ca which gets round the voodoo's high defence EDIT: As pointed out next page you need a 10:masks to summon a Teddy with the WW so in reality you may find you need to wait until turn 2 to do the actual summon unless you've got arcane reservoir and get lucky with the voodoo dolls obey flip. It DOES mean you can kill the voodoo doll with the WW turn one though Also (again) if you've got a Doppleganger in there you can mimic obey to make the WW ditch her last cards which saves the WW's 2AP for walk actions, giving the teddy a 16" threat range from the WW's deployed position(just make sure the voodoo dies where the WW will walk so you can pick up the scrap counter) Edited October 18, 2011 by magicpockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 You can also run desperate mercs and just kill them for corpse counters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 You can also run desperate mercs and just kill them for corpse counters. Yeah, but you have to pay for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stern Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yeah, but you have to pay for them ye the cheeky voodoo doll will be useful, teddy factory much every turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yeah, but you have to pay for them You have to pay for scrap counters with WW too. Just a different resource. People often forget that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaLoon Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Is it even possible to summon more then one Teddy at a time (unless playing the dreamer of course)? Teddy is Rare 1, yes? Also, to Magicpockets combo... First, there are only five cards in the deck that get the cast off to summon Teddy. It'd take a fair amount of luck to draw that turn by turn. Secondly, as the whole sac two cards to gain a scrap token ability mentions only being usable once per activation, doesn't that kinda stop you from obeying multiple uses of it per turn? The wording kinda confuses me... Third, assuming you can get two obeys plus the WW's own activation, kill your summoned voodoo doll for the fourth counter, etc., now you have no cards in your hand and you are needing a 10+ mask to be flipped... Not even remotely good odds heh Thanks for all the discussion folks! I love this community Edited October 17, 2011 by DaLoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromorph Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Echoing what calmdown said, I think the WW is best used to support Collodi's casting. Baring the turn 1 teddy tactic that Magic mentioned, the teddy thing is a bit of a hang-up and you're wasting mobility and resources waiting for a teddy to pop out on turn 4 (with (-1) Slow mind you). Personally, I would use her to cast breathe life if collodi needs the ap for something else. If he doesn't then use her to churn out wicked dolls (preferably with Z so you can make 2 per turn). That gives you another 12 wicked dolls over the course of the game....pretty solid IMO. That is assuming I didn't miss something in the rules that would prevent Z and WW from both making one each turn, but I don't have my books atm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaLoon Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Naw, the wicked doll factory seems solid enough. Only thing stopping you is have the mid to high-ish mask in your hand every turn, and the ability to play down what is essentially three cards a turn out of your control hand. On the plus side, a collodi centric crew has no real of masks as it's far more dependent on crows for it's spells (barring 'breath life') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiggyQubert Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Secondly, as the whole sac two cards to gain a scrap token ability mentions only being usable once per activation, doesn't that kinda stop you from obeying multiple uses of it per turn? I believe as obeay happens outside of the models activation it is not restricted by that limitation, the logic is something like - it prevents you from casting it if you have already cast it during the current activation - it doesent prevent you from casting it outside of your activation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yeah, obey works outside of activations, otherwise you could use it on your opponents once a turn/activation abilities and hoboy. As for the widow herself, I usually split my force a little, give her some wicked dolls to take and go do some objectives. If Collodi needs helps: dolls can transport right over to him. If she gets ignored, I get to complete my objectives. If she gets attacked either the wall of dolls will start shutting people down OR the dolls get crushed and Teddy starts shutting people down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaLoon Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yeah, obey works outside of activations, otherwise you could use it on your opponents once a turn/activation abilities and hoboy. As for the widow herself, I usually split my force a little, give her some wicked dolls to take and go do some objectives. If Collodi needs helps: dolls can transport right over to him. If she gets ignored, I get to complete my objectives. If she gets attacked either the wall of dolls will start shutting people down OR the dolls get crushed and Teddy starts shutting people down Ok, that totally makes sense... thanks all that helped clear up the obey thing. As for the wicked doll entourage idea... interesting. I usually have little issue with objectives due to collodi's silly speed, but for more 'take and hold' kind of things, I could see the Weaver and a gaggle of little friends beings pretty formitable. Kill the dolls and generate scrap at your own risk... heh A pair of Wicked Dolls as a bodyguard might help mitigate her defense problem as well... Their Wicked Intentions ability has cost my opponents more then a few decent control hand cards they didn't intend on having to spend just to USE their big beatstick model. It's all very situational as I see it... Only a few strats/schemes would encourage that tactic. But, the beauty of Malifaux is seeing/choosing those BEFORE you make the crew. So maybe I break myself of the idea of WW being an auto-include for my Collodi crew, and simply bring her out to play when the strategy calls for more 'take and hold' then hit and run. Thanks for the food for thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Well if its something like shared evidence, you can have collodi slide up the side of the board and have weaver sit back making you an army to protect yours. Or split the evidences you're going for so your opponent has to split their forces or lose one set of the evidence. Situational as you said, but I really find myself picking her for my games often enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 ye the cheeky voodoo doll will be useful, teddy factory much every turn? Unfortunately he's still Rare 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 waiting for a teddy to pop out ...(with (-1) Slow mind you). Remember teddy can charge when slow iirc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Remember teddy can charge when slow iirc. But it has to be the closest model, so that might be your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannonFodder Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 if you want a speed boost with zoraida and doppelganger you copy casting expert and repel with doppleganger. then use the spell, move 4 then spell again. gives you 10inches of move to zoraida and a good chunk of her crew. also dopple ganger can copy zoraida summon voodoo doll summoning wicked dolls. which if used agressively will generate enough scrap tokens for teddy to show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBmaster Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Actually doppelganger can't copy spells that mention models by name and the doppelganger can't copy (2) spells only (1) spells. The doppelganger can copy obey and have the ww create a scrap counter or a doll if a scrap counter has already been acquired. The doppelganger may be able to mimic Thread From Nightmare, scrap counter action, but I have been told that actions and things like nightmare, scavenger, etc. are not mimicable as they are not talents which I disagree with the actions part but not the other a the doppelganger would have to have scavenger to even pick up scrap counters. Please correct if wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphyxxious Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) Actually doppelganger can't copy spells that mention models by name and the doppelganger can't copy (2) spells only (1) spells. I am pretty sure that the doppelganger copies a (1) spell or any talent not just a (1) talent. Although I suppose the mentioning a model by name thing would still stop that wouldn't it? To be honest i have never used the doppelganger but am considering getting one so I am merely curious. Not trying to say you are wrong Edited October 23, 2011 by Asphyxxious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannonFodder Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I am pretty sure that the doppelganger copies a (1) spell or any talent not just a (1) talent. Although I suppose the mentioning a model by name thing would still stop that wouldn't it? To be honest i have never used the doppelganger but am considering getting one so I am merely curious. Not trying to say you or wrong That's right, so Create Voodoo doll is a (2) action which counts as a talent, same for Casting master. I haven't tried this yet but copying Create Voodoo Doll & Proper Manners. This gives you a nice factory to pump out Wicked Dolls and defense ability as a precaution. lastly when in doubt, get Raven and use it, you get a nice 20 inch flight movement to run away. The only spell / ability that the doppelganger can't copy off Zoraida is Hex because its a (2) spell. Though I think invisible servant would dissipate at end of turn before end of game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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